Objective comparison of Mnk and Nin difficulty to play ?

So don't mess up your ninjutsu casts. As SpecialKK stated, a NIN's damage is in their control 100%. I rarely ever have issues casting jutsu but frequently have issues keeping GL3 and finding the correct positioning in encounters where the target is moving.

Edit: As for movement, that was an example. If NIN had positionals attached to their actions along with ninjutsu, their damage might be justified.

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Originally Posted by treuhavik

So don't mess up your ninjutsu casts. As SpecialKK stated, a NIN's damage is in their control 100%. I rarely ever have issues casting jutsu but frequently have issues keeping GL3 and finding the correct positioning in encounters where the target is moving.

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Did you read my post and how I referenced "I" when talking about ninjutsu? I get very upset with MYSELF when I mess up ninjutsu.

I don't have many issues with ninja or the ninjustsu however, ninjustsu is 90-99% on the player and sometimes on the connection. However, keeping track of dots (Melee rotation)/ninjutsu timer/ninjustsu rotation/oGCDs/Kusatsu and mechanics can be rough. I'm also human, and i do mess up sometimes but that's getting very few and much farther in between.

I have even LESS problems on mnk than my Nin/Drg barring when I loose the boss for a fixed amount of time. If I do, I just PB if it's up and I won't/shouldn't need it for another phase.

AGAIN I don't have a problem with slight nerfs to ninja, my issue is when people try and justify it because they think mnk is harder.

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Originally Posted by SpecialKK

That's the difference though. The "problems" that MNK/DRG have pertains to boss movement (tank movement, boss turns, etc..). DRG is less forgiving than MNK in this regards. When you factor this with other mechanics (dodging), it adds additional difficulty to making sure you hit your "spot". You don't deal with any of that with NIN.

There is only one "difficulty" with NIN, and it's mudras. That however, is a "controlled" difficulty (for the most part). That is, you mess up Mudra then it's your fault...not the boss mechanics, not the tank's...but yours. The only "uncontrolled" difficulty of NIN is the lag in casting Mudra. I suffer from this a lot on dungeons, and it was ultimately what made me decide to stick to DRG (i really found NIN more enjoyable to play). I just don't have the confidence that I can hit my mudras consistently given my internet connectivity.

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^ This 100 times over. I don't think anyone could have said it any better and its the reason why Positionals add increased difficulty to melee classes as a whole regardless of weather or not u have mastered them.

Its also the reason DRG's are getting a Buff and NIN's are having their skill costs/potency adjusted.

Love my NIN almost more than my MNK but it was obvious there were balancing issues. As others have stated, if NIN's had more positionals i think the damage they deal would definitely be warranted.

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Originally Posted by PROBOU.ND;I620384

^ This 100 times over. I don't think anyone could have said it any better and its the reason why Positionals add increased difficulty to melee classes as a whole regardless of weather or not u have mastered them.

Its also the reason DRG's are getting a Buff and NIN's are having their skill costs/potency adjusted.

Love my NIN almost more than my MNK but it was obvious there were balancing issues. As others have stated, if NIN's had more positionals i think the damage they deal would definitely be warranted.

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Tp costs will probably go up by 10 on some of their moves and potency will be slightly adjusted on other moves but not all, I'm betting. They make it sound like the nerf will be small, less than 5% damage reduction.

I believe the reason nins don't have the positionals drg and mnk do is because of ninjutsu. It's an extra rotation that they have to deal with that the other two don't. So far, if doesn't seem like many people are looking at this point. If they added more positionals to nin, they should somehow do some type of secondary rotation that drgs and mnks need to do to maximize their damage as well.

I feel for ya on DRG, my original main. It's painfully gimped and that's why it isn't involved in the comparison.

Personally, I don't find any of the melee jobs difficult, just that it's easier to do MNK-like damage with DRG-like burst playing NIN. Actually, my first thought when hitting 50 on NIN and insta-gearing it was "Damn, this job's got the best of both MNK and DRG without any of the hassle." And It's pretty clear where the "ease" fits in regarding Ninja; Ninjutsu is easier dealt with than GL or position-locked actions. It may not be as easy for some due to lag, but that's not the game's problem, it doesn't need to compensate for your bad connection. The trick is looking at the whole picture without bias.

Do I think it's fair they're taking away the tools that were given to us? No.
Do I think NIN's damage is justified compared to ANY other melee job? No.

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Originally Posted by Leonus

2 things.

the second half of your post I agree with and is what I was eluding to by saying "cuss myself out". It's because a failed mudra cast is usually my fault. Not all the time, but usually. Controlled difficulty is a good way to put it. Mudras are also quite easy to mess up.


The other is..
Mnk and Drg positional attacks are controlled in most fights. It's just mnk is punished nowhere near the same level as drg for missing them as you stated (i was a drg main)and mnks just shrug it off. You have to have to be flawless as a drg to compete with an above average mnk. In that sense, should mnk be nerfed? No.

I don't have a particular issue with a small nerf to min, as long as it's that... small. My issue comes from people saying mnk has to work harder and that nin is free an therefore should be weaker. Each class has their own challenges.

I also don't know if you were agreeing with me or not in a sense.

Bad ninja's are not on the heels of the best monks. If they are, then that mnk is not as good as he or she thinks they are. Bad ninja's flub multiple jutsus constantly, don't keep up dots and don't pay attention. If great mnks are barely in front of that ninja... then the mnks themselves are bad.

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Yeah I agree that NIN doesn't need a huge nerf. So long as they aren't drastically changed, they should be fine along with the changes to DRG (though I'm not sure about the positional changes to the job, we'll have to see I guess).

I don't have a high level MNK so I can't attest to their combos, and perhaps there's a familiarity with DRG (I've been playing it for a year), but I find myself looking at my buttons more with NIN than with DRG. In that sense, they do have a lot to keep an eye on to keep their DPS up.

Trouble is difficulty is relative. Some people find different activities more challenging. I personally find ninja more challenging because I have to juggle more timers to make a decision on what I do next. (Muta, fang, DE, huton, Kassa, SA/TA, mudra). That's a lot of rolling information to constantly track on screen to mentally manage for me. For me mnk is much simpler. (Demo, tod, twin, dragon). I don't need to keep tabs on GL or positionals because positon is straight muscle memory for me and gl is just a trick or 2 at pre scripted phases (hit bombs, use tackle etc) so I don't need to expend any mental effort on it. For similar reasons I find drg absurdly easy.

Other people with better multi tasking may find ninja easy, but find the extra button pushing for movement on mnk more challenging. I find basic movement and positionals absurdly basic (probably because I played thf in ffxi for 9 years and mobs ACTUALLY spun like tops in that game and threat levels were invisible so you really had to intuit it so 14 monster prediction is child's play for me).

Your personal toolbox and skill set determines what's hard. My strengths are in mob awareness and positioning, but weak in multi tasking so I see nin as exponentially more challenging than mnk and drg as face palm easy. But that doesn't make it true for all. As long as each job has unique mechanics to manage we should stop caring what job is 'harder' and allow then to be on the similar optimal performance levels and let players gravitate to the jobs that fit them. Just because something is easy to you doesn't warrant Nerfing it and vice versa.

I personally play both Ninja and Monk,

My personal opinion? Monk is a lot less worries than Ninja, really, and Ninja feels like it throws their enemies with everything (even their shoes)
Have you seen their opening? Its a hell of a lot of things to throw out.

Positional in my opinion isn't that difficult, really, if anything the single positional Ninja has gives a lot more stress than any Monk's positional, since you only have one shot every 60 seconds.

MAYBE the main reason as of why I find Monk a lot easer than Ninja is simply because I play with controller. I do imagine that playing with keyboard while locking on target would imply a lot more difficulty.

I mean, as a PC player I have got the chance to play melees with keyboard, and I've hated it to no end, but with a controller this becomes so easy...

So for a player with a controller it might be a tad more difficult to deal with Ninja than Monk because of the extra attention on the ninjutsu rotation and gimps, and for a keyboard player it might be easer to play with a Ninja than a Monk because of the quantity of shortcuts available and less movement stress...

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Originally Posted by treuhavik

Ninjutsu is easier dealt with than GL or position-locked actions.

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How is that? GL3 once up is up.. On the occasion it goes down it's not "difficult" whatsoever to get back up, just do the same moves you always do or pop PB. There's no added difficulty in that, it's not technical in any way. Mudras require perfect execution every 20 sec for the entire fight, you really can't compare that to GL3, they are totally different mechanics.

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Originally Posted by treuhavik

stuff

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I am looking at this in a very unbiased light to be honest.

My ease of play for all 3 jobs is
Drg - Hard (Just really hard to be at the top on a parse)
Ninja - Middle
Mnk - Easy

I really don't think mnk is hard, maintain GL3 isn't hard and as long as you don't stop attacking, GL3 is a "gimme" boost to mnk. Again, the posotinals that mnk and drg have are offset by nins jutsu rotation. All of which hamper dps a lot if executed poorly. Flubbing Suiton gives you no access to SA/TA, flubbing raiton is 360 potency lost (this moves potency will probably be reduced to 330/340). Flubbing Futon is a blow to global cooldown and auto attacks. The difference as others have stated is that all this is on the player. If the player is flawless for the most part, in keeping both rotations going, then the numbers are really high.

The same for mnk, if his executions in positioning along with high uptime on the boss, his numbers will be high. Sadly drg is lacking in that but hopefully after the patch they'll be more in line with Mnk/Nin.

Ideally, where I think nin should be is below mnk sustained but still pretty high, and below drgs max burst but still decently high. It should be in between the two on those spectrums. All 3 should be very, very close in damage over the course of a long fight.