Paladin needs an enmity/potency buff.

I never said that there was a problem with WAR enmity generation. It is working perfectly fine. The thing I want to point out is that PLD and WAR enmity is balanced, even if they work a bit different. If you were to buff PLD potency without looking at WAR, you would create a balance issue between the two tank jobs.

Of course if PLD would get a reason to use other gcd skills (a 3rd combo step for riot blade for example), square would need to revaluate the enmity generation. But that is not the case at the moment.

@Alphras - That's exactly what I'm basically asking for. Though I know most would prefer the 1 2 3.

The only problem is with PLD is that they struggle to keep aggro on multiple targets.
For this, Overpower is far better than Flash.

As for single target, I don't think PLD has a problem. In fact, I think it can generate too much enmity. When Off Tanking, a WAR without Defiance will switch from enmity combo to debuff one, so it'll generally stay behind the MT.

For a PLD, even with Sword Oath (And Strenght accessories), a PLD will still do the RoH combo for a lot of enmity. It's not rare to steal aggro from the WAR if he's slightly less geared.
Riot Blade should have a debuff attached to it, like Storm's path absorbs HP AND reduces damage dealt by the target. I'd like to see an "Increase the target's chance to receive critical hits"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

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As a PLD, I've never had issues keeping hate on multiple targets. I just flash until empty and then riot blade until I feel like I need to start flashing again. I mean, yeah, I think WAR is definitely better at it, and keeping hate in general, but I don't really ever struggle with it. I do sometimes have issues with single target hate on PLD when the DPS is incredibly overzealous but I don't know it happens often enough for me to say it warrants a enmity buff.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

The only problem is with PLD is that they struggle to keep aggro on multiple targets.
For this, Overpower is far better than Flash.

*snip*

Riot Blade should have a debuff attached to it, like Storm's path absorbs HP AND reduces damage dealt by the target. I'd like to see an "Increase the target's chance to receive critical hits"

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Overpower and flash are more or less a wash as far as enmity generation goes. The warrior benefits because he's also doing damage, while the paladin benefits because it doesn't use any TP and riot blade can be used to spam flash pretty much indefinitely (although not as quickly as right after the initial pull).

I totally agree about the need to add some benefit to non-enmity combo attacks/abilities on the PLD. I'd rather see buffs/heals/protects that drain MP over time than a debuff to make RB more useful, but that's just me.

I don't believe PLD's need a potency/enmity buff on their single target tanking. As the classes are right now, any slightly major changes would give the other an overall edge and offset the wonderful balance the two classes enjoy with each other. CoS and Spw each give a 12.30% increase in total WpnSkill DPS. A warrior really only pulls ahead very very very slightly, because of Unchained. As a trade off a PLD gets a shield which I believe is a fair and balanced trade off for the sake of differences between classes.

Some maths to back my opinion:

Notes:
-Assuming GCD is at 2.5.
-Not countining Berserk, Unchained, Flight or Fight, and Auto-attacks.
-Storm's Eye Only lasts 2 Full rotations therefore in a SP, BB, BB does not apply for the SP combo.
-Sword Oath gives a 50 potency to your auto attacks which is roughly every 2.5 secs for a PLD (Purely eye tested). For this calculation, it is essentially a +50 potency to all GCD Weapon Skills.
-Berserk and Flight or Flight are almost similiar so their application wouldn't change much. FoF is something like a 10% total increase and Berserk a few decimal points lower because of the pacification.
-Unchained would push the WAR totals(ones with stance calculations naturally) slightly further (like no more than 3000 for damage potencies and like, 13000 for the hate potencies) purely from common sense, putting them slightly ahead.

Over 300 seconds or 40 GCD's (perfect alignment of Brutal Swing, Circle of Scorn and Spirits Within)

Formula:
(((WpnSkl*Stance)*Maim)*StrmEye)*Times Used

WAR:
Pure BB
(630*0.75)*40 = 18900
with Brutal Swing: + (100*0.75)*15 or 1125 = 20025

Maim
SP,BB,BB
(((590*0.75)*1.2)*14) + (((630*0.75)*1.2)*26) = 22176
with M. Brutal Swing: + ((100*0.75)*1.2)*15 or 1350 = 23526

Maim and Storm's Eye
SE,BB,BB
(((610*0.75)*1.2)*14) + ((((630*0.75)*1.2)*1.1)*26) = 23902.2
with M. S. Brutal Swing: + ((((100*0.75)*1.2)*1.1)*15) = 25387.2

PLD:
ROH: (610*0.8)*40 = 19520
with Circle of Scorn: + (250*0.8)*12 or 2400 = 21920
with Spirits Within: + (300*0.8)*10 or 2400 = 21920
with Both: + (250*0.8)*12 + (300*0.8)*10 or 4800 = 24320

Storm's Eye

ROH: ((610*0.8)*1.1)*40 = 21472
with Circle of Scorn: + ((250*0.8)*1.1)*12 = 24112
with Spirits Within: + ((300*0.8)*1.1)*10 = 24112
with Both: + ((250*0.8)*1.1)*12 + ((300*0.8)*1.1)*10= 26752

Without Stances for you OT DPS junkies.

WAR
Pure BB
630*40 = 25200
with Brutal Swing: + 100*15 = 26700

Maim
WAR:
SP,BB,BB
((590*1.2)*14) + ((630*1.2)*26) = 29568
with M. Brutal Swing: + ((100*1.2)*15) = 31368

Maim and Storm's Eye
SE,BB,BB
((610*1.2)*14) + (((630*1.2)*1.1)*26) = 32894.4
with M. S. Brutal Swing: + (((100*1.2)*1.1)*15) = 34874.4

SE,BB
(((610*1.2)*1.1)*20) + (((630*1.2)*1.1)*20) = 32736
with M. S. Brutal Swing: + (((100*1.2)*1.1)*15) = 34716

PLD:
ROH: 760*40 = 30400
with Circle of Scorn: + 250*12 = 33400
with Spirits Within: + 300*10 = 33400
with Both: + (250*12) + (300*10) = 36400

Storm's Eye

ROH: (760*1.1)*40 = 33440
with Circle of Scorn: + (250*1.1)*12 = 36740
with Spirits Within: + (300*1.1)*10 = 36740
with Both: + (250*1.1)*12 + (300*1.1)*10 = 40040

Hate Potency

Formula:
((((WpnSkl*Stance)*Maim)*StrmEye)*Enimity Modifier)*Times used

WAR
BB = 168.75 + 675 + 1575 = 2418.75

Maim BB = 202.5 + 810 + 1890 = 2902.5

Maim Eye BB = 222.75 + 891 + 2079 = 3192.75

Maim SP = 202.5 + 256.5 + 337.5 = 796.5

Maaim SE = 202.5 + 256.5 + 364.5 = 823.5

Brutal Swing = 112.5

Maim Brutal Swing = 135

Maim Eye Brutal Swing = 148.5

Over 300 seconds or 40 GCD's

Pure BB = 2418.75*40 = 96750
with Brutal Swing = + (112.5*15) or 1687.5

Total Hate Potency: 98437.5

SP>BB>BB = (796.5*14) + (2902.5*26) = 86616
with M. Brutal Swing = + (135*15) or 2025

Total Hate Potency: 88641

SE>BB>BB = (823.5*14) + (3192.75*26) = 94540.5
with M. E. Brutal Swing = + (148.5*15) or 2227.5

Total Hate Potency: 96768


PLD
ROH 180 + 720 + 1560 = 2460
COS (250*0.8)*1.5 = 300
SpW (300*0.8)*1.5 = 360

PLD Storm's Eye
ROH 198 + 792 + 1716 = 2706
COS 330
SpW 396

Over 300 seconds or 40 GCD's

ROH 2460*40 = 98400
COS 300*12 = 3600
SpW 360*10 = 3600

Total Hate Potency: 105600

+Storm's Eye
2706*40 = 108240
330*12 = 3960
360*10 = 3960

Total Hate Potency: 116160
I don't know the spoiler code ;-;

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

A warrior really only pulls ahead very slightly, because of Unchained.

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A Warrior pulls out way ahead, not just because of Unchained. Most Warriors can generate more hate than a PLD can ever hope to, because Berserk + Maim + Unchained brings their damage up to 170%, not counting the reduced slashing resistance from Storm's Eye. In your math you neglected that PLD can only get a maximum damage boost to 110% (100% being base damage, no stances) in its tank stance, because Fight or Flight bumps only 30%, where as Berserk generates 50%. Combining Berserk with Unchained and Maim gives WAR a huge amount of aggro over a PLD, because FoF and Berserk aren't actually all that similar. That 20% difference between the two, combined with Unchained and all the other damage buffs WAR gets makes a pretty noticeable gap in enmity. Even with Pacification, Berserk combined with Unchained and Maim will generate much more aggro than a PLD with FoF and Shield Oath.

PLD is fine, but I do think it would be nice if Fight or Flight affected Flash's enmity potency.

I'm not sure why Fight or Flight was made to only affect physical damage dealt. This only really affects Flash, so maybe it was intentional? Either way, it seems rather unnecessary.

RE: OP's situation, if the OT is routinely stripping hate off of the MT, then there is either a large gear disparity, or someone isn't doing their job.

I think there is a difference between attack power increase (50% Berserk) and more damage dealt (Maim 20%). It wouldn't be a flat 170% increase. Once you pop berserk and look at the the attack stat it goes up by 50%. Now the question is does strength outweighs damage dealt?

Just like how reduce incoming damage is better than raising physical or magical defense.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by melflomil

I think there is a difference between attack power increase (50% Berserk) and more damage dealt (Maim 20%). It wouldn't be a flat 170% increase. Once you pop berserk and look at the the attack stat it goes up by 50%. Now the question is does strength outweighs damage dealt?

Just like how reduce incoming damage is better than raising physical or magical defense.

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You're right. 50% attack power is NOT equivalent to 50% extra damage dealt. It is in fact a bit worse because the damage you deal involves factors beyond your attack power. FoF is competitive with Unchained and Berserk COMBINED. Good WARs pull ahead because of Internal Release in a lot of real world situations.