Switching from PLD to WAR and need advice

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Originally Posted by Kitru

That's totally not true. You should use Overpower to generate initial aggro on AoE groups, but you should not be using it to establish aggro on bosses or for pulling (unless you're pulling a group and can catch them all with it). Overpower is expensive as hell and doesn't generate Wrath stacks or provide you with any buffs.

Your main aggro generator is still the BB combo, and your main enmity rotation is still some combination of SE and/or SP and 1-3 BB. If you use Overpower for anything other than AoE (and, even then, only if you don't have Steel Cyclone available), you're doing it horribly wrong.

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In fact i said "to PULL bosses", holding a boss with overpower is stupid and everyone(i hope) knows that. And yes, you should be using it for pulling enemies, you can't pull doing your main combo, trust me i tried to do that a lot of times, and sometime some friendly blm stole my aggro with 1 fire, so yeah, now i'm using verytime overpower to pull.

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Originally Posted by Riyos

In fact i said "to PULL bosses"

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And that's explicitly what I'm saying not to do. You'll be in combat before you activate Overpower, which puts you 1 GCD behind opening with Tomahawk. Overpower is 600 ePot; Tomahawk + HS is 540 and it gets you to BB 1 GCD faster. The only possible situation where you might need that 60 extra ePot in the opening volley is if you've got DPS that outgear you while simultaneously opening hard as soon as you activate your abilities rather than as they hit. Even then, I've had DPS do so and never had a problem. The closest they get to pulling off of me is half of a second between my HS landing and Skull Sunder grabbing it right back.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

Because of the range, you're triggering proximity aggro before you actually get to use it and you're already basically in melee range.

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False, a melee skill has 3y range, overpower has 8y, and tomahwak has 15y. Overpowers range more or less coincides with an enemy sight(the are some exceptions like Twintania), so you use it to pull a mob/boss and when you are near him you almost have your gcd ready. Actually there's no big difference between pulling with overpower and pulling with tomahawk, with first you have more initial aggro but you have to wait a moment for your gcd, the second it's the opposite, less aggro(not a lot less though) but you have your skills up, so it's useless to have a discussion about it. It also depends from situation, for example with garuda and ifrit i use overpower to pull, with titan i use tomahawk in order to have my gcd ready and be able to build stacks asap and have IB ready for the first MB("but you can use infuriate" yes i know, but I don't like doing it in this way, don't ask me why).

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Originally Posted by Riyos

Overpowers range more or less coincides with an enemy sight

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Which is the point. If you use Tomahawk on the run up, you'll be able to use Heavy Swing by the time you'd've been able to use Overpower because of the delay on Tomahawk.

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("but you can use infuriate" yes i know, but I don't like doing it in this way, don't ask me why)

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If you knew anything about my philosophy concerning the use of Infuriate or even what you should do at the start of a fight, you would realize that I would never start with Infuriate unless I required Steel Cyclone for it (t4 and t5-OT are the only occasions I ever do this).

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Originally Posted by Kitru

Which is the point. If you use Tomahawk on the run up, you'll be able to use Heavy Swing by the time you'd've been able to use Overpower because of the delay on Tomahawk.



If you knew anything about my philosophy concerning the use of Infuriate or even what you should do at the start of a fight, you would realize that I would never start with Infuriate unless I required Steel Cyclone for it (t4 and t5-OT are the only occasions I ever do this).

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I know that, and I even said(wrote, whatever) that. I even said that there's almost no difference.

Well i don't know anything about you because rarely i read stuff here, but neither i use it(not even in t4, or at least i don't use steel cyclone, flash and then op is more than necessary, then i prefer using stacks on unchained)

--I'd say the main thing is to simply keep in mind that there are intervals for which you cannot get Inner Beast up in time without Infuriate unless you also use a Wrath-generating CD (Berserk or Vengeance). Titan and Leviathan EMs are pretty good examples of this. In that sense I'd recommend that you do not think of Berserk as an altogether offensive CD--think of its timing as important to the deployment of your defensive Suite. Foresight, Featherfoot, and Awareness are your minor CDs, where only Foresight acts as a good rotational minor, and Thrill of Battle will be "oh shit move" or Stoneskin/Lustrate buffer. It is not nearly as easy to properly click-off CDs as a Warrior.

p.s. Once you're confident with your positioning in a fight, and assuming you can trust your healers consistency and awareness, Infuriate should be as close to per-CD as you can make good use of it. It really shouldn't be an 'oh shit' move, though gun-ho DPS may force you to waste one on SC if you're not on the ball.

(To tomahawk vs. overpower-pulling -- both have plentiful enmity modifiers. I personally pull with Overpower only if there's more than one thing to hit and if I can hit all of them at once (i.e. can sneak up on them). Otherwise I tomahawk. I usually finish fights with having just hit full Wrath, and use that rather than Infuriate from my SC-pulls, assuming Unchained isn't available of worthwhile.)

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Originally Posted by Kitru

If you knew anything about my philosophy concerning the use of Infuriate or even what you should do at the start of a fight, you would realize that I would never start with Infuriate unless I required Steel Cyclone for it (t4 and t5-OT are the only occasions I ever do this).

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Depends depends. Infurate + unchained (+ berserk) at the start of the fight gives you an enormous amount of hate. This is so that you can rotate into storms path faster.

Usually you want to be 2 BB combos ahead of a path-BB combo and only when it becomes more or less solid do you want to go to storms eye for anything hard, but if you know the content, the extra hate spike with infuriate-unchain will alow you to bypass that and go directly into storms path or storms path sooner.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

So where are ToB and Holmgang? If you're going to talk about burst damage mitigation, you need to actually include everything that applies.

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Theory crafting doesn't make it anything but unrealistic. ToB might as well be placebo (since topping a war off with thrill defeats the purpose of needing to hold the fort with well timed vengence) and Holmgang is unreliable at best for all for those situations.

Like a pld adding in convenance and shield, etc CDs. placebo.

There's a total and unarguable reason the PLD takes the lead in those situations. Vengence is the best substitute for anything a pld should be doing, but somehow the war ends up doing.

Almost every extreme, coil, and other stuff, there will be 1-3 situations that are "risky" and rationing vengeance for those is bread and butter. Pld have double the chances since they can stack rampart and sentinel, on top of HG. So they have many more options.

Wars have much less options so they only have the option given to them "It better be up".

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

Depends depends. Infurate + unchained (+ berserk) at the start of the fight gives you an enormous amount of hate. This is so that you can rotate into storms path faster.

Usually you want to be 2 BB combos ahead of a path-BB combo and only when it becomes more or less solid do you want to go to storms eye for anything hard, but if you know the content, the extra hate spike with infuriate-unchain will alow you to bypass that and go directly into storms path or storms path sooner.


Theory crafting doesn't make it anything but unrealistic. ToB might as well be placebo (since topping a war off with thrill defeats the purpose of needing to hold the fort with well timed vengence) and Holmgang is unreliable at best for all for those situations.

Like a pld adding in convenance and shield, etc CDs. placebo.

There's a total and unarguable reason the PLD takes the lead in those situations. Vengence is the best substitute for anything a pld should be doing, but somehow the war ends up doing.

Almost every extreme, coil, and other stuff, there will be 1-3 situations that are "risky" and rationing vengeance for those is bread and butter. Pld have double the chances since they can stack rampart and sentinel, on top of HG. So they have many more options.

Wars have much less options so they only have the option given to them "It better be up".

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You are absolutely ignoring the cooldown duration. You say tath wars have less options, that they only can wait for vengeance and that plds can stack sentinel and rampart, the problem is that vengeance cd is 120 secs(tob too) while sentinel is 180. Rampart is 90s but Ib has the same mitigation, and with infuriate(which cd is 60 secs) it can last for 12 secs("only" 8 less than rampart). So there are much more chances that vengeance and other stuff is up than sentinel is. On top of this consider that if storm's path is up all cds get a 10% bonus, so vengeance becames like sentinel but with shorter cd and ib becomes more powerful than rampart with a much shorter cd(and shorter duration ok).
ToB isn't a placebo CD, foresight is, bloodbath is, awarness is, ToB isn't. It gives you 20% of your HP, that became 2000 if you have 10k HP(And with new gear that goal isn't that far), and more important thing after 20 secs the cd don't take those 2k hp from you(unless you are full hp or almost full), it's a very precious cd, that becomes even more powerfull with convalescence(that again isn't a placebo, and anyway both war and pld have it).

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Originally Posted by Kitru

WAR is all about using the tools you've got actively whereas PLD is more about holding on to them until they're absolutely required. .

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People say this a lot and they are always wrong. Paladins rotate cooldowns throughout the entire fight. There is no point in time outside of Tank Kill mechanics on turn 9 where you absolutely must save a cooldown to survive. And even then you can mitigate them by swapping tanks halfway through Claw and swapping after Ravensbeak.

I have never had to 'save' a cooldown until it's required on a boss (again outside of turn 9). You use them based on the situation you're in while taking into consideration your incoming damage, your raid's incoming unavoidable damage, and your healer's mana and throughput with movement requirements. There is nothing required about popping Rampart/Awareness when the first Deathdancer spawns on turn 7 to smooth out my incoming damage, but it is very helpful to ensure that my incoming damage is both smooth and efficiently mitigated while healers are handling healing two targets at once, as an example.

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Originally Posted by Riyos

You are absolutely ignoring the cooldown duration. You say tath wars have less options, that they only can wait for vengeance and that plds can stack sentinel and rampart, the problem is that vengeance cd is 120 secs(tob too) while sentinel is 180. Rampart is 90s but Ib has the same mitigation, and with infuriate(which cd is 60 secs) it can last for 12 secs("only" 8 less than rampart). So there are much more chances that vengeance and other stuff is up than sentinel is. On top of this consider that if storm's path is up all cds get a 10% bonus, so vengeance becames like sentinel but with shorter cd and ib becomes more powerful than rampart with a much shorter cd(and shorter duration ok).
ToB isn't a placebo CD, foresight is, bloodbath is, awarness is, ToB isn't. It gives you 20% of your HP, that became 2000 if you have 10k HP(And with new gear that goal isn't that far), and more important thing after 20 secs the cd don't take those 2k hp from you(unless you are full hp or almost full), it's a very precious cd, that becomes even more powerfull with convalescence(that again isn't a placebo, and anyway both war and pld have it).

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CD is deceptive. Becuase all you're saying is "Hey I mitigated all that damage, Go me". When in fact you could have face tanked it and the healer could heal you up in seconds.

almost all end game is about "critical moments" That's when everything happens, a wipe highly possible, no errors etc. That's why pld get the fancy duty because they have the fancy CDs.

negating 1k damage from 5k is good and all....yaa...kinda good, but really, does it even matter? The next attack is 10 seconds away, both healers are bored and spamming cure1/phys you're getting 5k heals np. You must feel so good to pop a worthless CD

now when shit hits the fan, and stuff blowing up, the whole group is getting hit by aoes, you're beeing smacks constantly for 3k-5ks....That's when you sink anything and everything into it.

and foresight is the only one on the list not placebo. It's crap, but it's still physical def (around 5%)

If you're punching primal and say oooh woah is me, foresight worthless. Fine, but for stuff we're tanking, we're super super glad it's there. Cause we got nothing. Nothing at all.

Let's take ifrit extreme as a basic example of end game tanking. You're getting stacks, 1-2-3 swap 1-2-3 maybe 4. 1st phase. zZZZzz 2nd phase.... ya maybe pop one at 3 or 4 just to keep the heat off, 3rd phase.... now comes the crunch....super nail does 3k damage, and ifrit has a leash on you to make stuff that much harder, and both tanks are hitting up high stacks with constant 1k damage aoes.

Those 2 minutes, and in those 30 seconds... is the entire fight. Everything. Right there. All your CDs and "Oh I'm negating damage yay me" is compressed into those 30seconds.

Now running a pld is nice, because a pld can HG on 4 stacks, get 5 or 6 stacks before another tank swaps, allowing a full 20 seconds to tank it for almost no strain. then after passed back, you have another set of CDs all ready and able to soak 60-80% and a stoneskin buddy if need be.

A war...got nothing. sure you can infuriate, for 2-3 IBs, but that's not a very long time or a very high reduction. Foresight wil help with a few swaps. and thrill of battle will do all of... 1.5k heal because the chances of you having full hp is almost nil with the constant aoe... that just leaves vengence...

If you're good, you can time your IB/vengence/thrill like a HG..a getto HG. and then face tank the rest hoping RNG doesn't screw the other tank over, and stack him high as well.

Not quite pld but that's the best wars can do.

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Originally Posted by Instrumentality

People say this a lot and they are always wrong. Paladins rotate cooldowns throughout the entire fight. There is no point in time outside of Tank Kill mechanics on turn 9 where you absolutely must save a cooldown to survive. And even then you can mitigate them by swapping tanks halfway through Claw and swapping after Ravensbeak.

I have never had to 'save' a cooldown until it's required on a boss (again outside of turn 9). You use them based on the situation you're in while taking into consideration your incoming damage, your raid's incoming unavoidable damage, and your healer's mana and throughput with movement requirements. There is nothing required about popping Rampart/Awareness when the first Deathdancer spawns on turn 7 to smooth out my incoming damage, but it is very helpful to ensure that my incoming damage is both smooth and efficiently mitigated while healers are handling healing two targets at once, as an example.

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Generally rotating CDs to save mana is good because the content is scripted, but then that a pld with HG.

But realistically healers don't really spend much mana anyway until way into the fight. If you ever notice healers MP, then you know that most of the MP comes in very fine bursts.

Go talk to your healer. heck just look at your top off hp times. There's only so many phases that require high outputs of mana. Sure the medica/succors drain on healers in the long run, but the wipe almost always happens at key points.

Wars don't have that option depending on what they are suppose to do. They need to make sure they have those CD or sets of CDs on certain cues.

On the healer side, I will get annoyed you're constantly getting hit for 3/4 of your life, but I'm much more annoyed if you can't keep yourself alive when crap hits the fan based on the script.

You can sprout T9 stuff, but in the end on something as simple as a levi ex fight. One defining moment : 2 bubbles, 3 waves, and a cleave from the head...omg wtf, stupid war where's your vengence CD. And just to make it worse right after that phase change, into spashes, and dives. Stop being useless.