Which job has the lowest skill cap?

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Originally Posted by Mister-Wonderful

bard can run circles and do near top dps still, just keep your buffs going, dots up and spam away.

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Doing that isn't hitting the skill cap though.
You're talking about trying to maximize BLM vs just doing okay on BRD. Of course it's going to be easier.

"Easier" is subjective though.
When you say bard can run around while doing near top dps, all I see is a bard hitting buttons while moving and a blm just moving. Which is "easier"?

If we're talking about maximizing Bard dps, then you need to worry about:
1) buff management - (IR, Raging, B4B, Hawkseye, Barrage, Invig) - stacking buffs with barrage is always better than not stacking because it's mutiplicative, but you don't want to delay your GCD using many in a row or sit with a buff ready to go for too long waiting for another to stack with.
2) dot management - clipping dots when appropriate to get more out of your buffs, watching server dot timer to know when you can clip the end of the dot when it's not going to get its final tick
3) utilizing all your off globals - (flaming arrow, repelling shot, blunt arrow, bloodletter, misery's end) - always weaving, never delaying your GCD
4) never missing a beat on the above even while dodging
5) song management - when do you use foe as much as possible (with mages in group) vs saving it for burst. When do you need to ensure you have mana for ballad. etc...

If you're trying to be the absolute best you can possibly be, you're going to hit 3 times as many buttons as a BLM over the course of a fight.
So I just don't see it in a thread asking about absolute skill cap.

If you're playing lazy or just want to do well enough to win fights, then I completely agree with you that Bard is crazy easy.
But if that's the attitude we're talking about, then so are BLM/SMN/DRG/PLD/WAR.

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Originally Posted by Bardo

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First, use oGDCs when they're up. The only time you hold oGDCs is if you need them for burst phases (Titan Heart or Gaols, Conflags, etc) or if there is going to be a break in the fight (Primal jumps, phase changes, etc). And this is ALL oGDCs, not just buffs. And yes, use only one between GDCs so you maximize uptime on everything (This applies to ALL DPS classes; you use buffs when they're up, except for certain times [like burst or phase changes]) One of the reasons BRD is easier is you can macro your damaging oGDCs together and have pretty much no DPS loss. That is nearly impossible for every other class.

As for BRD GDCs...its literally Straight Shot, Windbite, Venomous Bite, Heavy Shot spam with SS procs, then you just keep SS up (assuming bad luck with procs) and keep DoTs up. Your GDCs are mostly Heavy Shots, and since that's the case you can easily keep DoTs up without any effort at all (no combos to worry about, and they have the same duration so its even easier than SMN).

And Songs...yes...please keep Foe's up when there are no BLM or SMN in the party. I will laugh at you for being a bad BRD. There are times and places for Foe's with casters, not "as much as possible". Besides being unable to keep Foe's up for long in the first place, using it whenever you can will likely prevent you from using it during burst phases, and that's a sign of a bad BRD. And if there's heavy melee/BRD AoE...you should have mana for Paeon too.

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Originally Posted by Tharian

First off, if all you are doing is spamming Astral Fire spells with the oddball Thunder Spell while waiting for Firestarter and Thundercloud to proc.... I find it absolutely amazing you don't run out of MP so fast and regularly that you are constantly unable to optimize your DPS. Even making liberal use of Convert won't help you if that is all you are doing to attempt to optimize your DPS.

Rather you should be alternating between casting Astral Fire spells and Umbral Ice spells so that you never run short on MP inbetween uses of Convert. That also will enable you to be constantly applying pressure and to have next to no downtime on your DPS.

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I'm not really sure what you mean by alternating AF and UI spells. Care to elaborate? And I don't see how you can run out of mp. Mana management is the most important part of playing a blm and is taught to you at level 4. Convert is on a 3 min cooldown, so its not like it can be used liberally.

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Originally Posted by Tharian

Obviously you have never played an Archer/Bard in this game. The Archer/Bard's attacks are impossible to interrupt. Additionally they can be fired in a 360 degree firing arc. What this means is that no matter which way you are facing, so long as you have a selected target, you will hit that target, even if you are moving when you launch your attack! The only problem the Bard faces is that they must have line of attack, but not necessarily line of sight. This means that they don't need to be able to see their target, but the path to their target needs to be unobstructed by tangible barriers of any kind.

Please note, I said its attacks are impossible to interrupt, not it's songs.

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I do have a bard although he's only 32. I think you are missing my point. I am not arguing that pressing buttons while moving is hard, but it isnt any harder when I don't have to press anything while moving on my blm.

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Originally Posted by Bardo

When you say bard can run around while doing near top dps, all I see is a bard hitting buttons while moving and a blm just moving. Which is "easier"?

If you're trying to be the absolute best you can possibly be, you're going to hit 3 times as many buttons as a BLM over the course of a fight.
So I just don't see it in a thread asking about absolute skill cap.

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Thank you. You helped to explain it better than I did.

Or to put it another way, if i want to separate myself from your typical run of the mill blm, there is not much more I can do/add/deviate to my rotation from the "standard" while I think as a bard, there are many more small nuances that can be incorporated/improved on to see a difference in dps output.

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Originally Posted by Edellis

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Yep just as dragoons have to time their bfb and IR with HT and Dis. So in that sense I see dragoons quite similar to bards but they have to worry about their positioning for attacks. On the other hand, blms only have raging strikes as a damage buff and is either used at the start of the fight or timing it to end with SC flare. So in that sense, there really isn't much chance to screw things up.

Bard is much less about using skills and more about knowing when to use your buffs.

They really change everything on Bard. All of their abilities benefit in some great way from Hawkeye/Raging Strikes/Internal Release. Using these at the wrong time during a fight will ensure a much, much, much lower DPS than usual. DoTs are another thing, because they are influenced by the buffs too. Being at max efficiency with Bard is actually alot more complex than it seems. They have alot of very little DPS increases that aren't always easy to see how well they add up. Heavy Shot 24/7 is not doing bard correctly.


With Bard, you're able to move freely but IMO there's just so much more to pay attention to. DoT timers, Buff timers, Straight Shot procs, Bloodletter recast procs (No indicator), Off GCD skills like Misery End or the viability of Repelling Shot, not to mention which songs your team needs, whether or not to waste the MP on Foes Requiem, and when/when not to use Battle Voice....other classes may not be able to move, but I dont have nearly as much to pay attention to on other classes.


Black Mage is 100% MP usage, and once again knowing when to start/stop casting and positioning. BLM damage gets ridiculous thanks to Firestarter and any decent Flare usage, but interrupts or having Astral/Umbral end prematurely are the bane of their existence.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

First, use oGDCs when they're up.

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And which oGCD do you choose?
Do you prioritize buffs over BL?
What about if IR/BL are both up but you need to refresh your dots?
What about if Flaming Arrow is up but the boss isn't going to stand still for 30 seconds?
You have to make a LOT of decisions quickly to play BRD optimally.

The priority list for GCD's is incredibly simple, but the priority list for oGCD's changes all the time depending on current circumstances and you have a lot of oGCD skills/buffs. That's where the complexity comes in.
Sure, it may only make ~20dps difference over the course of a fight which is unlikely to make or break any encounter, but again we're talking about skill cap, not just skating by.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

One of the reasons BRD is easier is you can macro your damaging oGDCs together and have pretty much no DPS loss.

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No you can't...
You can macro BL/ME together, but Flaming Arrow, Repelling Shot and Blunt Arrow?
Talk about "laughing at you for being a bad Bard"...

Interesting that people find bards to be "easy" to play. Its actually that bards have to literally NEVER stop attacking, to have competitive dps. All other classes, its basically taken into account upon their creation, they hit higher, but they have to move a bit, interrupt skills a bit. Not so with bards. Moving and attacking might seem nice from the outset, but just remember that to have good bard dps, you have to continue that dps perfectly, while also dodging everything. Its as much curse as it is luxury. Compared with Attacking. Or dodging. Titan just threw down his + and X, summoned his egis, and ripped out his 5 way landslide? Dodge it all and dps perfectly while doing so. Other class = "ok stop attacking, move, ah everything is ok, continue attacking"

Edit: Hardest to hit maximum potential dps? the VERY max a class can hit? I'd say bard is hardest. Far too many variables. I don't even think anybody is 100% sure how to even do this. BLm has rotation. Drg has rotation. Bard? Well....we have a lot of opinions on the matter, a disputed priority system, rather than an agreed upon close to the top rotation. Other bards get extremely evasive in-game when asked about these matters...

Even look at this thread, some people pass it off as "macro, so np" but really, that alone isn't enough to break any barriers, and is more a description of what is needed for skill base, and not skill cap lel.

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Originally Posted by Sessurea

Interesting that people find bards to be "easy" to play. Its actually that bards have to literally NEVER stop attacking, to have competitive dps. All other classes, its basically taken into account upon their creation, they hit higher, but they have to move a bit, interrupt skills a bit. Not so with bards. Moving and attacking might seem nice from the outset, but just remember that to have good bard dps, you have to continue that dps perfectly, while also dodging everything. Its as much curse as it is luxury. Compared with Attacking. Or dodging.

Edit: Hardest to hit maximum potential dps? the VERY max a class can hit? I'd say bard is hardest. Far too many variables. I don't even think anybody is 100% sure how to even do this. BLm has rotation. Drg has rotation. Bard? Well....we have a lot of opinions on the matter, rather than an agreed upon close to the top rotation. Other bards get extremely evasive in-game when asked about these matters...

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Yes but you use very few different buttons to do so, mostly always mashing the same ones. The talk of buff timing to optimize damage is true, but it hardly effects your damage output, even with optimal timing were are talking within 10-20 dps usually, I can dps almost as high not caring about my buffs and popping them off at will with, as I do with perfect buff timing, like timing BL and raging to have at least venom bite buffed 2 times per buff rotation and possibly getting windbite doubled as well, getting all oGCD's in during buffs, barrage is with it, straight shot when proc or to open, all while being able to freely move and with little thought involved other than press the thing when its back off cooldown. BLM if I mess up 1 bit of rotation i'm losing 20-50 dps average, and possibly messed up my mp to wait even longer.

Also there is a usual bard rotation, keep dots and straight shot up and use oGCD's often and between GCD's, not everyone agrees on most all the rotations there is plenty who argue still, bard doesnt have a set rotation because lol you have 2 dots and heavy/straight shot, use them, pretty much it. Buff timings and opinions change on every job so the "bard doesnt have a rotation" is not true, not everyone will ever agree other than the basics. The variables you speak of are basically bloodletter procs. If a boss moves casters lose their cast, melee often have to run out of range, and bard just keeps on blasting, thats a big variable on the other jobs that bard ignores completely.

Besides proc luck, I've experienced near same damage numbers on both jobs, with bard having a much easier time getting there, Sure I press more buttons on bard, but they are all easy to press with little thought, even if you count buff timing. When the things lights up, use it asap while safely doing so, buffing if possible to do it. Make sure you don't see time on the dot left when you app, (cuz not dot clipping is hard, lol). BLM to compete with bard in my play needs to optimize everything it can just to get comparable numbers with similar gear. i87 bard on my main and i85 w/allagan weapon blm, also have i90 blm on my alt, and play them all the time. It's all opinion anyway.

summoner is by far the most involved job out of all of them and if done correctly are the best DPS in the entire game. Summoners have so much micro managing that takes skill to manage it correctly. Between looking at dots, garuda egi, dodging and using e4e for the tank, yeah this is by far the most talented class. Next I would have to say dragoon and 27 step proper rotation and heavy thrust that falls off every 20 seconds and if you miss, you have to start all over. Bard will take 3rd because not only all the little dot management and the skill prioritization. Also the thought of actually being pro-active with songs and battle voice as opposed to being reactive. Do not wait until you know a whm needs mana be proactive and know when you can with easy play a song and just how many battlevoices you can squeeze into an encounter. Monk and blackmage are nearly tied for the easiest to play. There is no real challenge for a monk and blackmage, you dodge and continue on with what you have to only difference that makes a monk a little more skilled than a blackmage is keeping up the greased lightning, other than that these classes just focus on destroying encounter. All dps though have to learn the fights and know when they can use cooldowns for max effect and when those cooldowns become available again for crucial dps check burn phases.

BLM is ridiculously easy to play, same with BRD. There shouldn't even be a discussion about it, they are both stupidly easy to play. If I had to argue which is easier, it would be BLM, we have one buff(which we get from ARC) anyway, to go along with our initial burst of Raging Strikes>Fire 3>Fire*x>Firestarter proc>SwiftCast> Flare> Convert> Fire>Blizz 3>Thunder 2, from personal experience the Raging Strikes should last until the Flare, after that initial burst, we simply do the same rotation while dodging at around 0.4s cast time if we have to.

Hardest to Easiest:
DRG=MNK
BLM
SMN
BRD

Why you ask?
If DRG misses the proc for Heavy Thrust or Impulse drive because the mob decided to turn as you hit your ability, you're back at square 1 with your full rotation. For MNK, if the mob moves as you hit your ability, you lose tonnes of potency on a hit and it really effects your overall DPS score.

BLM is sat at the number three spot because you have to commit to your cast, or dodge an attack and lose DPS. This comes down to learning when an enemy or boss does moves and utilise Manaward and Manawall. The damage you put out in one cast and the fact that you can get insta-free-cast spells is why this isn't in spot for "hardest DPS class."

SMN is where it is because it isn't as hard as people put it forward as. WiseWolfHolo's post exaggerates SMN into being this class that requires you to move your hands at light speed across your keyboard, or thumbs across your control pad. It isn't that way though. It's extremely relaxed compared to DRG, MNK and BLM. You apply dots, use contagion and utilise your cooldowns between casts. Even a bad Summoner who has Garuda on Sic, and only uses DoTs and Fester with no Cooldown abilities, will out DPS most players on other classes.

BRD is by far the easiest class in the entire game. Anyone who says "I need Ballad!" is a bad healer who cannot use their cooldowns correctly (this is in "end-game" content). The only time it's acceptable to waste your MP on casting Ballad (ironic yes) is when there is no caster DPS (SMN & BLM) in the party. If there is a caster you should nigh full-time Requiem. The only exception would be when there are moments that require high levels of DPS (Ifrit Ex's nail phases, Titan's heart phase, Twintania's Conflags, etc etc). In some cases you will need to use Blunt Arrow (Turn 2, doing it the correct and devilishly easy way), but again this doesn't make the class hard at all. It just means to hit a button when you see a certain ability being cast.
I wont go on about the "BRD rotation" as everyone has dissected that to no end. Instead I'll just say, "It's stupidly easy".


This is of course my opinion on the matter so don't get your knickers in a twist over it.