Pld buff or War nerf in 1.22?

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Originally Posted by Rydin

thats why PLD need more enmity generation than WAR, but not from damage



In a normal party setting, how often is the hate cap reached? I'd vote to remove the cap.... but even with it in, it's a theoretical limitation

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there is no cap if i remember the battle plans.

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Originally Posted by Firon

there is no cap if i remember the battle plans.

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Now I can't find the test, but if someone else can... link it please

I know I saw the test where the max enmity possible was 27,000 units of enmity higher than the lowest person on the enmity list

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Originally Posted by Dzian

typical paladin using af about ~3400hp typical war using af ~4200hp. surrrrreee the gear has an impact but thats the typical gear people wear on there jobs. so it matters.

on a totally physical immune (which doesnt exist yet) mob how can a pld hold hate significantly over a war. and lets go one step further and say both jobs in the same gear as thats what you seem to do with your hp comparrisons to. put them both in a full set of standard sentinals/cobalt for example

instantly in your effort to lessen the hp gap you've killed a plds cover and outmanouver isn't going to get you that much mp which is going to really impact your healing. and your hate moves consist of sentinal rampart flash voke with physical immunity your spirits within flat blade wardrum and shield bash are all effectively useless (not sure if wardrum generates a static emnity value regardless of damage) your only mp regen is outmanouver which isn't suffiecient enough to make it spammable.

a war same gear as the pld above. has sentinal rampart flash voke antagonise and collusion. with a hint of second wind (really minor but its there)
so yeah he can sentinal vokes and flash, antagonise vokes and flashes thus able to generate more emnity from those alone. he has his rampart. (now before you say plds rampart is enhanced we are talking about your idea of a physically immune mob which typically means the dd are going to be mages and stood nowhere near the tank) and a war has vengance which although the damage reflection part would be useless would still give hive a 50% mitigation. add that to collusioning a blm on his nukes (same physical immune boss) and it seems that the potential emnity generation is not significantly different after all.

so i think that in a totally physically immune boss fight (which doesn't exist yet) a warrior could tank with maybe 90% of a paladins efficiency. but as soon as you can attribute physical damage to the equation that warrior is going to simply going to shoot miles ahead. but sure pld is a bit better in stuff that doesnt exist yet.

to go back to baatral. a warrior can tank him while everyone else smashes the first wave of skeles. by which time hes got enough hate that everyone else can pretty much go all out and drop him so fast the next waves of skeles can be totally ignored. you cant do that with a pld. which ultimately means war has greater survivability. if its dead before it can hurt you you dont need healing kinda philosophy

Edit:- I will just say I am not a war fanboy. pld is my favorite class. and i'm looking forward to 1.22b with great anticipation

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/face palm , dude, you keep setting yourself up for failer... is this troll bait? bahh, to at least keep anyone from taking your post seriously I will respond, but not because I think your argument holds any water with anyone who actually knows wtf they are talking about...

Lets start at the top... typical gear people wear?... Ok anytime a PLD is tanking anything in AF gear and seems to be doing horably , that is usally a new pld or an old pld with a realy bad idea of how to stack stats for the job. Secondly that HP bonus you mention is , even with my high def /vit set up , a grand total of two hits from Ifrit , with no rage. Not much of a bonus. DEF/VIT if you want to deflect damage. All Im gona say.

Second Paragraph, if you put a war in standard Cobalt plate or sentinal gear you are going to do HORABLE DAMAGE in comparison to your AF, just stay in your AF much better off that way if your tanking on WAR, HOWEVER as to your challange. again your gona do shit for damage in tank gear on WAR and even if you could land hits it will be much harder for you to sustain the same amount of hate on your war as you would in AF gear because all those traits you listed only (lol) one is used on its own without party support that is actually strong with WAR , rampart on war gives zero enmity (must land on multiple players in your party the more who get it the stronger the enmity, wich can only be on on GLA/PLD) sent and antagnize may buff the hate you gen from voke and flash but is minimul if the DPS is moderatly good. as far as antaganize, that is your one key ability that will save you from losing hate. BTW using sent as a enmity buffer is kinda retarded, it works but best to use it on a magic attack that hits hard even if all war gets is 20% deflection. Soo to answer your question "how can pld hold hate better then war in that situation?" LOL easly, Rampart actaully works for us, self heals and party heals go a long way (not to mention helps if your party set up has limited healers.) and lets not forget we do get 3 abilities with to spam voke. I never use vokes on WAR but would assume the cool down for flash on war is a bit longer then 30 seconds..

3rd paragraph, Closing the HP gap is just one benifit, increasing vit and def is another, and all those empty materia slots are just begging to be filled with good stats like def, vit, mind, enmity+ ect ect. Effectivly increasing these stats greatly reduces the number of heals you need and thus makes the very small amount of MP you would get from the AF top peice seem worthless in comparison. as far as our abilities doing no damage and getting no hate.. will have to double check that one but pretty sure the damage delt dose not effect the static enmity in generates. there are stats that effect the amount of damage each of those combos do but not sure about the relationship between damage delt and enmity generation on those combos. Either way PLD is way better suited to keep hate on physicaly resistant mobs.

fourth paragraph , yeah vengance is awsome except you actaully have to take damage to make it work, not sure how taking damage is ever a good think when tanking. When possable you want to NOT take damage , or maybe thats just me, oh and vengince dose not generat enmity , fyi. I agree collusion is kick ass , but it has a long cool down and requires some cordination with the dps , assuming the attack lands and is not resisted , that is the only fail safe for war. but your talking hate from 1 our of 5-6 DDs , not gona be enough to sustain hate controll without help from the DD side.

fith paragraph , to sum it all up you said " so I think" thats where you went wrong. Where I agree that when capable of dealing physical damage, WAR has quite an edge on hate grab , HOWEVER the more you gear it to survive the more you lessen hate controll, self heals, and overall DPS. All 3 main reasons why people tank with war.

lastly "If its dead before it can hurt you kinda philosophy" ohh you mean like those lvl 35 NMs or HNMs or pretty much all these jokes of boss fights/dungeons we have now? Yeah , props to WAR for being able to take down weak boss mobs in a tank positon. Again nothing given to us as end game content has truly test the ability of a tank to survive. More like tests for the DPS to see who can deal more damage faster. Proof of this is when THM and WHM tank boss mobs...

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

Second Paragraph, if you put a war in standard Cobalt plate or sentinal gear you are going to do HORABLE DAMAGE in comparison to your AF

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Originally Posted by Dzian

on a totally physical immune (which doesnt exist yet) mob how can a pld hold hate significantly over a war.?

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did you read that. you talk of a physically resistant mob so gimping physical damage isn't an issue. i took your example and put it on a level playing field by putting both classes in same gear. if your then saying a pld can tank if he spends millions on materia but a warrior can tank and does not need to spend millions. does that not indicate a problem. a great expense to make apld work.

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

rampart on war gives zero enmity (must land on multiple players in your party the more who get it the stronger the enmity, wich can only be on on GLA/PLD)

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

Soo to answer your question "how can pld hold hate better then war in that situation?" LOL easly, Rampart actaully works for us,

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and in your case of a phyically immune mob example when ar ethe dd going to be close to you. if everyone is (over there) standing at a safe distance, which given phyical immunity or resistance as you said one would then assume any dd is going to be black mages then rampart is going to do fk all for you.

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

yeah vengance is awsome except you actaully have to take damage to make it work, not sure how taking damage is ever a good think when tanking. When possable you want to NOT take damage , or maybe thats just me, oh and vengince dose not generat enmity.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

and a war has vengance which although the damage reflection part would be useless would still give him a 50% mitigation

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said nothing about emnity there. i mentioned it purely for the damage reduction which aids survivability. if you dont want to take damage you really shouldn't be a tank. a tank is basically the one screaming at the mobs "come on! hit me with all you got!!"

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

HNMs or pretty much all these jokes of boss fights/dungeons we have now? Yeah , props to WAR for being able to take down weak boss mobs in a tank positon. Again nothing given to us as end game content has truly test the ability of a tank to survive. More like tests for the DPS to see who can deal more damage faster. Proof of this is when THM and WHM tank boss mobs...

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that right there is why stacking def fails. i'm just glad you said it yourself.

so in summary you made an example of physical resistance which doesn't exist yet where a pld may shine and every arguement you make against my thoughts is in some relation to phyical dd output which by point of your own example is irellivent. no melee dds = no super rampart and no melee dps = no arguement against not using warrior af.
Other than that you haven't offered any answer to my question of how a pld can hold hate significantly over a war. the only answers you have given are both wrong in your own theoretical situation of physical immune bosses

and boosting your gear with def vit etc etc doesnt really do a huge deal because like you said thm and whm can tank boss mobs. warrior and whm both take very similar damage from helfire for example.

one final thing. i dont care if i set myself up to fail or get /facepalmed. if somehow as a result of this thread or many others like it i learn that magical piece of information that makes my paladin super duper awesome then it will be worth a hundred /facepalms.

ooooo you just got told son

Damn only can like once

Dzian you left out that Vengeance also feeds WAR DPS on top of it's 50% mitigation.
So yeah you nailed the rest ^^

I just want to play a class where i wont get booted because i'm playing what i want to play and what I play actually does my job. hopefully time i manage a 50 paladin the class will be useful.