[dev1033] Ideas for a Two-Tier Class System: Jobs on Top of Weapon Specializations

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Originally Posted by Augury

You guys need to SLOW DOWN for a minute and think about how reckless another combinatory job-system would be, as well as how the flavor of the jobs available pours over into the flavor of Eorzea's setting. So, considering this, let's look at what we flavorfully have to riff on based on the 3 city states.

Limsa Lominsa- A city on the bay, home of a powerful Navy. For the sake of this, it makes sense to have Pirate/Picaroon-ish/Thief, Berserker, Gunner/Cannoneer, Paladins and Dragoons.

Gridania- A city-state hidden in the epicenter of a forest. So it can be expected that Geomancers, Ranger/Hunter, Beast Master, Sage/Elementalist/Magus or other such jobs could hail from here.

Ul'Dah-A city-state that thrives on trade, prize fighting, militias and priesthood. Devouts, Monks, Thieves, Fighters, Bard/Clowns are all sensible choices

Ala Mhigo- (spoiler warning): Since a large portion of the plot is about Ala Mhigo falling to the Garlean empire, this would actually make for a great origin story for the birth of Eorzea's Dark Knights who seek to turn the Garlean empire's own machinas against them to avenge the fallen.

This doesn't mean that all jobs must be inherently flavorful- but it makes more sense than not. How much of a buzz kill would be to see Paladins which look like walking shields again, or color mages, if they don't really have any other place in the environment other than the game's title?

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i dont understand what you mean? having a combinatory style doesnt mean they wont have histories and places in the world, its already implied they will have specific gears, which could link to specific plotlines, and history.

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Originally Posted by Physic

i dont understand what you mean? having a combinatory style doesnt mean they wont have histories and places in the world, its already implied they will have specific gears, which could link to specific plotlines, and history.

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I'm hoping these plot lines are a little more focused on the history of each job rather than about people that happen to be of those jobs.

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Originally Posted by Physic

i dont understand what you mean? having a combinatory style doesnt mean they wont have histories and places in the world, its already implied they will have specific gears, which could link to specific plotlines, and history.

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That wasn't what I meant xD A combinatory system was the fail-point of XI, because it worked only in favor of specific combinations- and sadly that's usually how it goes (if you've ever played WoW or RO, as well, this is why many people want to get away from the trappings of a talent tree). That was a secondary point to the "jobs need to be flavorful" thing.

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Originally Posted by Augury

That wasn't what I meant xD A combinatory system was the fail-point of XI, because it worked only in favor of specific combinations- and sadly that's usually how it goes (if you've ever played WoW or RO, as well, this is why many people want to get away from the trappings of a talent tree). That was a secondary point to the "jobs need to be flavorful" thing.

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Since you use WoW as an example, a large reason behind the difficulty in finding balance between specs is because the game also has PvP as a major component of the game (not to mention they are hellbent on not making two separate rulesets to use for PvP and PvE). This problem would probably not be present in XIV because of its focus on PvE for the most part.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Since you use WoW as an example, a large reason behind the difficulty in finding balance between specs is because the game also has PvP as a major component of the game (not to mention they are hellbent on not making two separate rulesets to use for PvP and PvE). This problem would probably not be present in XIV because of its focus on PvE for the most part.

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PvP should NEVER factor into it, unless the game is built to be played for PvP. PK modes/arenas should be a novelty in an adventure game, unless there are PvP jobs which only function in PvP scenarios. A game structured around party play, adventure and flavor should ONLY consider those when creating jobs, unless there is a parallel PvP model for very specific jobs.

The one exception I would punch into this post though, is things in the vain of RO's War of Emperium, where the object is not to kill your opponents, but to protect or conquer a separate object altogether, (which usually doesn't result in as many PKs as it does pushing entire guilds back to defend or punching through to attack the Emperium). But this isn't true "PvP" in the sense of PKing balance. Also, there are plenty of other MMOs out there which are robust and built purely on the PvP experience, so why sacrifice anything in XIV for that same worn out feature?

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Originally Posted by Augury

PvP should NEVER factor into it, unless the game is built to be played for PvP. PK modes/arenas should be a novelty in an adventure game, unless there are PvP jobs which only function in PvP scenarios. A game structured around party play, adventure and flavor should ONLY consider those when creating jobs, unless there is a parallel PvP model for very specific jobs.

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I agree, but I'm simply stating that there's more to the class balance issue in WoW than most see or recognize. The running gag of "PvE nerfed because of PvP" has quite a bit of truth embedded in it.

You spoke against a spec-like system because of potential balance issues. I decided to mention that the problems with spec like systems as per WoW are part of a much bigger problem (the developers' design philosophy not really working) and that said problems are not necessarily inherent to spec-like systems.

I do agree with you in that the subjob system was the fail point of FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

I agree, but I'm simply stating that there's more to the class balance issue in WoW than most see or recognize. The running gag of "PvE nerfed because of PvP" has quite a bit of truth embedded in it.

You spoke against a spec-like system because of potential balance issues. I decided to mention that the problems with spec like systems as per WoW are part of a much bigger problem (the developers' design philosophy not really working) and that said problems are not necessarily inherent to spec-like systems.

I do agree with you in that the subjob system was the fail point of FFXI.

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xD I didn't mean it to argue with you, actually- and in retrospect it certainly did come out that way. The thing is WoW was made before a funny little game called Guild Wars (made by people who developed WoW 1.0). What those people picked up (and many developers have choked on) since is that separating PvE and PvP is the only way to have them coincided in a structured manner, because the object of it all is so very different. The difference is that while Guild Wars had a better overarching design in almost all ways- It was undistinguished, undercooked and in some aspects broke the 4th wall far too much to be as immersing as WoW.

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Originally Posted by Augury

That wasn't what I meant xD A combinatory system was the fail-point of XI, because it worked only in favor of specific combinations- and sadly that's usually how it goes (if you've ever played WoW or RO, as well, this is why many people want to get away from the trappings of a talent tree). That was a secondary point to the "jobs need to be flavorful" thing.

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Obviously certain combinations will be better in certain situations, but at least you can explore and play the way you like the most. If 3 or 4 weapon classes are identified as the best to combine with a given job, it's still 2 or 3 more possibilities than compared to a non-combinatory system.

Regarding your initial point about the flavor of the jobs and tying them to the lore and certain starting cities, that's a very good idea and I hope it works this way if implemented. It could very well be tied with the grand companies scheme in a secondary story-oriented line of quests/lore/dungeons.

Could also be fun to have a choice of one job you can start with when creating a character, the list of jobs available would be different depending on your starting city, then you need to obtain certain levels of fame/achievements in your own and in other starting cities to unlock the other jobs.

Love the idea. I really wish they'd just share some game engines used from XI.

I really feel sorry that this was not the path they took, and that the path they have seemingly decided on is far from Final Fantasy. I hope it all works out though.