Dear Healers who don't DPS

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

I'm sorry for trying to engage in intelligent discussion and debate with you <3

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Debate about what? A playstyle I made a superbly vague statement about that can't even be done anymore because Cleric stance has been changed? There is nothing to debate. What are you even talking about?

Do you think this thread is called "Lets Debate Penthea's dps in HW and Find Relevance to it in SB"?

If you want to debate that then I suggest you make that thread yourself instead of derailing this one.

And your <3 doesn't adequately veil your snide sarcasm.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

If you want to debate that then I suggest you make that thread yourself instead of derailing this one.

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Hi!

This thread is titled 'Dear healers who don't DPS'. Right?

My comment was about healers not DPSing. Correct?

Cleric stance might have gone, but plenty of healers still aimlessly stand around or just overheal to the nines using the excuse of 'but that tank damage!'. (Granted, maybe I've been lucky, but it seems a *lot* better now vs what it was like towards the end of HW)

Just to add with the hopes of ending this silly argument, I really can't stress it enough, my co healer could come in here and make the same statement as you did and I'd still have called it out. This isn't about you or your personal DPS.

This is about me stating that the extra damage tanks take in a large pull isn't always the end of a healers DPS.

You can work around it with a pug tank, and if you're running with a static tank and can pre plan hallowed/LDs etc. Even better.

If my upstream wasn't so horrifying where I am, I'd do another set of video guides for this tier. A text guide in these forums would likely just end up in another mud fest.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Hi!

This thread is titled 'Dear healers who don't DPS'. Right?

My comment was about healers not DPSing. Correct?

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You wanted to debate my dps in HW and somehow tie it to SB...based on a really really vague statement I made and want to make something big about it. This thread is about healers who don't do dps. I do dps. So no this debate you wanted to have isn't relevant as I'm not the kind of healer this thread is complaining about.

I don't know why this is so hard to grasp.

And I have said all I'm going to say about this matter. I accused you of derailing the thread, and me responding to this makes me just as bad.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

why must a healer DPS?
why must a tanks use cooldowns/maintain tank stance?
why must DPS avoid unnecessary damage when it won't kill them?

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I feel like much of the fuel behind this discussion has to do with these questions and how they're dealt with by the community. See, a good tank will use cooldowns. However if they don't, you don't see them being ridiculed on the forums to the extent you see for healers, nor do you see them being kicked from casual or DF parties. The party adjusts. If a dps gets hit by avoidable things, the same situation applies. You're rarely gonna see a dps being kicked or harassed in a party for standing in the bad- at worst the healer will simply leave the dps on the floor and continue to do what they will. However the backlash for a healer not dpsing is so much worse lately than either of those situations, where healers will be literally told, in both forums and parties, "If you don't dps you're a trash healer. You're going to get kicked if you don't dps. If you want to just heal, go unsub and find another game." This is why the Devs don't want people expecting dps from healers- not because they want healers to be lazy or to keep people from encouraging the best possible play from healers willing to listen, but to stop people who will take their views on it and use them to enforce what is basically a meritocracy on their own parties. These attitudes are why many who are viewed as "non dps" advocates are, I feel, actually aiming for a middle ground, like myself and Ghishlain.

I think the main point to take from the widespread debate on healer DPS is that it generally isn't going to change the way the game is. These debates have been going around for ages, it's clear that if the developers agreed with the notion that 'healers should only heal' they wouldn't have designed their entire gameplay around it to make it as easy and powerful as possible. And yet regardless of how clear it is that a healer should deal damage, there's always going to be ones that don't because outside of Savage the party won't ostensibly fail if they aren't dealing damage. Unless the developers add extra checks in non-Savage content requiring healers to deal damage or fail to complete the duty, including in expert and levelling dungeons, no amount of posting on the forums or creating guides will change this. It's the same as DPS that use strange rotations / no additional support abilities or tanks without cool downs.

It's always going to happen when the bar is set so low in expert dungeons, and inevitably trickle into Savage content (though naturally these attitudes won't last long if they don't reconsider their play style.

It feels like the baseline for healers is being set at the 'ABC' style required for optimised GCD usage, even though many healers are experiencing healing only through things like expert dungeons, which have a completely different baseline. This creates frustrations from both sides as two different baselines - two different sets of expectations - are established, and thus what a healer 'should' be doing is going to remain infinitely divisive until a middle ground is created.

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Originally Posted by Destatiredux

I feel like much of the fuel behind this discussion has to do with these questions and how they're dealt with by the community. See, a good tank will use cooldowns. However if they don't, you don't see them being ridiculed on the forums to the extent you see for healers, nor do you see them being kicked from casual or DF parties. The party adjusts. If a dps gets hit by avoidable things, the same situation applies. You're rarely gonna see a dps being kicked or harassed in a party for standing in the bad- at worst the healer will simply leave the dps on the floor and continue to do what they will. However the backlash for a healer not dpsing is so much worse lately than either of those situations, where healers will be literally told, in both forums and parties, "If you don't dps you're a trash healer. You're going to get kicked if you don't dps. If you want to just heal, go unsub and find another game."

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Is this really your experience? I would imagine that a tank refusing to use cooldowns (or tank stance) or a DD who eats every single AoE is just as likely to get kicked in DF than a healer who refuses to DPS (and neither happens very often). However, no one would defend such a tank or DD, whereas there are people (even in this very thread) who try to justify that kind of healer play.

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Originally Posted by Destatiredux

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This victim complex simply doesn't exist. First and foremost, healers aren't kicked from parties any more than other roles. It's widely over-exaggerated, especially with queue times being abysmal for DPS. Most will tolerant a lot on the simple basis they don't want to wait even longer. This extends to blatant call outs in-game. If it becomes egregious, people will either leave or may ask what's going on, but you just aren't seeing abrupt outbursts in party chat regardless of the role you play. That all being said, you don't circle many discord channels or even these very forums often do you? Mockery is not exclusive to healers. In fact, the "Tales of Duty Finder" thread has more people bitching about DPS or Tanks than any other role. For myself, I will absolutely yell at a tank if they aren't using CDs, and kick them if it persists. I'm not there to be your personal babysitter because you can't be bothered to play your job properly.

So why are threads about healers more prevalent? Because only that role has a built in excuse to perform poorly, one people actively defend. There isn't a debate to have with tanks or DPS. You're unanimously considered a bad player if you don't rotate cooldowns or stand in everything under the sun. No one will defend either shortcomings, especially at the endgame level. If you look at the general forums right now, a Red Mage is complaining how rude it was he was kicked after two deaths. Note the replies. Barely anyone has given him much benefit of the doubt-- at best saying the first death wasn't a huge deal. Healers, on the other hand, have people cherry picking that tired Yoshida article, insisting their only job is healing or acting entitled about their DPS contribution being a luxury we should be thankful for but never expect. That is why you see such a divide amongst the playerbase.

You find me one person who argues tank cooldowns are a luxury for healers. If you do, I'll show you an idiot. How's that for calling out? :p

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

So please, the developers made it easier so we don't have to stance dance anymore as healers. Please, don't be lazy and contribute to faster runs.

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Dear Origami Tank,

We don't tell you to pick up the DPS, please don't tell healers to do the same when they're trying to keep everybody alive.

Thanks.

PS: Please don't stand in stupid. We like extra mana for emergency heals. Cool.

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Originally Posted by MaikoRaines

Dear Origami Tank,

We don't tell you to pick up the DPS

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I (and many others I'm sure) absolutely will ask for a tank to do DPS if they refuse to do any, and I will not care how busy they are "tanking". :D

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Originally Posted by Taika

Is this really your experience? I would imagine that a tank refusing to use cooldowns (or tank stance) or a DD who eats every single AoE is just as likely to get kicked in DF than a healer who refuses to DPS (and neither happens very often). However, no one would defend such a tank or DD, whereas there are people (even in this very thread) who try to justify that kind of healer play.

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Actually, yes. I've never, not once, seen a tank get kicked for not using cool downs or tank stance in a DF, nor a dps get kicked for standing in all the things. Not once in all the years I've played this game. But I have experienced and seen healers get kicked for not dpsing, or dpsing enough. I agree none of it is defendable, but since people tolerate the rest to a much larger extent than a healer lacking dps, I find it to be an incredible double standard by the community if that's the comparable measure being used in this instance.