What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by Lauront

What were your thoughts on this BTW?

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Hysterical laughter, mostly.

All right, in seriousness, of course my eyes rolled out of the back of my head, but it's also not really much beyond what I was expecting. As we've discussed, regardless of the problems with her character, Venat is very popular and has a lot of fans, so they're not going to go full-in on "what a terrible person" - in a general sense, yes, she's probably going to be treated positively when she's brought up. Also, the .1 patch is generally too early for the MSQ writing to take in fan feedback - I think they've mentioned the .1 patch stuff is basically established by the time the expac is rolled out, and IIRC, it took until about 5.2 for Shadowbringers's patch writing to really blatantly jump full-force onto the Emet-Selch train. That being said, LMAO.

What was most telling to me, honestly? Emet-Selch getting direct invocations and flashbacks from the MSQ, along with the heavy implication that the WoL is specifically setting out to honor his list of tasks - while Venat herself doesn't actually get mentioned or discussed once. I think in all the content she's only brought up as Hydaelyn in that brief red herring in the Alliance Raid. The Lodestone side story future may in fact at hand, my friends.

And hey, recounting of events aside, it's not technically inaccurate about Venat's character - she did, in fact, do everything out of "love." It's just that, um, her definition of "love" is vastly, vastly different from my own. Also sort of fun how the codex entry for the "Final Days" just completely skips over the Sundering, huh? Mankind selflessly sacrificed half its number to stop the Final Days--mumble mumble something something--AND THEN IT HAPPENED AGAIN! SOMEHOW! OH NO!

Yeah, I thought it glossed over some key aspects a little too much for my liking. While she's popular, they should at least grapple with what she did and not mince words about what sundering means in this context. Not expecting them to say she's a terrible person, but this to me reads as a hagiography, and it moves a little too fast in taking possibilities or probabilities and treating them as inevitabilities. Reading between the lines, it is more or less saying she's using the calamities to test man, but it's so focused on inundating the reader with an account of her "love" that you could be forgiven for missing that. Certainly agree that the definition of love is a debatable one.

I also thought it was more than a smidgen unfair to Zodiark, to cast him off as the instantiation of some "ill-fated wish", as opposed to the being that the star and its inhabitants can thank for their continued existence. I think at this point I'm going to step back from the game and just take the stance of an observer with what each patch is bringing. If the short stories and future patches do show measurable improvement, great, but I'm not going in with the expectation of it.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

I also thought it was more than a smidgen unfair to Zodiark, to cast him off as the instantiation of some "ill-fated wish", as opposed to the being that the star and its inhabitants can thank for their continued existence. I think at this point I'm going to step back from the game and just take the stance of an observer with what each patch is bringing. If the short stories and future patches do show measurable improvement, great, but I'm not going in with the expectation of it.

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Oh, yeah, that was by far the most egregious part of it, and a very fun rerun of "throw the Ancients under the bus to prop up Hydaelyn, because our primary aim is justifying her." Which, again, is pretty LMAO when out of the other side of the mouth they're going on about how selfless and good the Ancients were in a different codex entry. It's just repeating what EW already did - likewise with the hammering on and on about her love, how she meant well, she beat mankind into the ground because she BELIEVED in them, that they could TAKE it, etc, etc. Like I said to Rulakir a long time ago, I can't blame anyone for taking a step back or finding the writing choices around Hydaelyn and the Ancients basically unforgivable - they're really bad.

I dunno, as much as I like Emet I wouldn't want a potential codex entry to describe his darker actions in fluffy terminology. You could describe the formation of Garlemald and the Allagan Empire as a 'community building project' which sounds nice and is technically correct but it wouldn't really do his character justice in the same way that downplaying the Sundering and its effects doesn't align with Venat on any meaningful level.

I don't factor in character popularity to the same degree, either. Sylvanas was exceedingly popular in WoW and her continued presence in the story - as well as the constant downplaying of her various misdeeds - contributed heavily to turning people off of that game's ongoing story.

The other elephant in the room is that the codex will be cited as 'mommy did nothing wrong' and fuel more discussion about how the Ancients were stupid and Zodiark was a 'blood god'. Which is deceptive framing and not in alignment with the actual story being told.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

The other elephant in the room is that the codex will be cited as 'mommy did nothing wrong' and fuel more discussion about how the Ancients were stupid and Zodiark was a 'blood god'. Which is deceptive framing and not in alignment with the actual story being told.

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More of the usual, anyway. I don't think anyone's opinion would actually be swayed by the codex entry, as much as it sounds like Krile's in-universe fanfiction as she scribbles down her and Hydaelyn holding hands in crayon. Anyone who doesn't pay attention to that stuff will continue to not pay attention, or even care. Anyone who's hated the Ancients since their introduction will nod and agree with the entry. Anyone who likes them will continue to inhale vast amounts of copium and despairium, like me!

I'm sorry, Elidibus, my sweet moon prince. We failed you... you were right. Emet sold out for fanservice.

The language in the codex just sounds abusive, frankly. It's a combination of "I love you so much that's why I hurt you", "this hurts me more than it hurts you", and "look what you made me do!"

There was a thread on Reddit today talking about what Azem was doing during the Final Days and some people still insist that they would've been working with Venat who would've told them everything. I may be biased AF, but where in the game would anyone get that impression? Both Ardbert and the WoL had unwavering loyalty to their world and were willing to throw others under the bus to save it. Plus, ask if Hydaelyn had told the WoL that she needed to sunder the world again for its own good if the WoL would accept that and help or fight her tooth and nail (with the Scions in the background giving a grandiose speech about being in charge of their own destiny)? Cause there's your answer as to what Azem would've done. I suspect she knew that and didn't tell Azem anything, especially as there'd be no point in her followers soliciting Azem if they knew she'd spoken to them.

Edit: I keep forgetting to mention if you haven't seen the new Lahabrea solo duty it's interesting. He basically effortlessly KOs the WoL, but then Hydaelyn revives you and gives you a power up to be able to defeat him. Obviously, I'm not keen on the Hydaelyn part, but I do like that they're consistent now with the WoL being easily defeated by the unsundered without significant assistance from outsiders.

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Originally Posted by Brinne

Oh, yeah, that was by far the most egregious part of it, and a very fun rerun of "throw the Ancients under the bus to prop up Hydaelyn, because our primary aim is justifying her." Which, again, is pretty LMAO when out of the other side of the mouth they're going on about how selfless and good the Ancients were in a different codex entry. It's just repeating what EW already did - likewise with the hammering on and on about her love, how she meant well, she beat mankind into the ground because she BELIEVED in them, that they could TAKE it, etc, etc. Like I said to Rulakir a long time ago, I can't blame anyone for taking a step back or finding the writing choices around Hydaelyn and the Ancients basically unforgivable - they're really bad.

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Yeah, there's a lot of flowery language used to sort of soften the blow of what she's done. its a shame too cuz I would've loved if they leaned into her "love" being acknowledged as more of an unhealthy obsession.

I'm a bit late to the discussion about what we would've done, but If I had the opportunity to tweak the narrative while doing the absolute bare minimum, aside from having her memory wiped in Kitsis shortly after marking Meteion to avoid the mess that caused, I think I would've preferred if Venat's strange actions had instead been attributed to her transformation into Hydaelyn instead of her ancient self, with Venat's admiration of mankind's ability to overcome any form of adversity being warped and perverted into the belief that only through adversity can mankind hope to achieve anything. In this scenario, Venat's desire to become a primal in order to protect the natural life on Etheirys would result in Hydaelyn purposely sundering the world not out of love, but the instinct to prove to herself that nothing is impossible for us.

When she's confronted about the Meteion's coordinates, she would state she has no memory of marking her and thus, wouldn't know where she is. But in a callback to Montichaigne's lecture, she mentions that perhaps in death she would remember. However, recognizing that her life now serves as an obstacle in your path, a contradiction is formed. Her instincts would kick in again and she would challenge you to a death battle, demanding that you prove to her how much the world means to you and if you're conviction is strong enough to take her life for it. She loses, remembers everything as she fades away, maybe cries a bit about how much of a monster she's become, and at this point you would have the opportunity to console her as it truly wouldn't have been her intention to cause SUCH DEVASTATION! She commends you for figuring out the truth of the final days when no one else could and sends you off clinging to hope that her actions might've helped a bit and she didn't screw things up too badly.

I feel something like this would've allowed for Venat to remain a truly sympathetic character and frame her actions as a compulsion that couldn't be helped rather than something that absolutely needed to be done, and would justify the jarring battle we had against her since there currently is no reason why the spar to the death needed to exist. what exactly would've happened if we lost? We still needed the coordinates to confront meteion, was she just gunna force us to use the moon ship?

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

The language in the codex just sounds abusive, frankly. It's a combination of "I love you so much that's why I hurt you", "this hurts me more than it hurts you", and "look what you made me do!"

There was a thread on Reddit today talking about what Azem was doing during the Final Days and some people still insist that they would've been working with Venat who would've told them everything. I may be biased AF, but where in the game would anyone get that impression? Both Ardbert and the WoL had unwavering loyalty to their world and were willing to throw others under the bus to save it. Plus, ask if Hydaelyn had told the WoL that she needed to sunder the world again for its own good if the WoL would accept that and help or fight her tooth and nail (with the Scions in the background giving a grandiose speech about being in charge of their own destiny)? Cause there's your answer as to what Azem would've done. I suspect she knew that and didn't tell Azem anything, especially as there'd be no point in her followers soliciting Azem if they knew she'd spoken to them.

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The response to this question in the LL was so ridiculous. If they have a plan for what Azem was canonically doing during the Final Days then just say "we can't speak about it, you'll find out later.". Saying "whatever you would be doing is what they would be doing" is like ????!!. Well, if Venat had clued me in on her grand plans, I wouldn't be allowing some lunatic to destroy the world and everyone I love because of her own, subjective reasons and would have fought her to the death. Is that how Azem died? So are you gonna write a new story for me because that's what my Azem would be doing?

And assuming that Azem knew nothing, just like everyone else, and that the reason for the split from the Convocation was because they disapproved of Zodiark being the answer, then they'd be out there trying to find an alternative way to save their world. But hey, no matter what I think my Azem would be doing, the writers will surely correct my wayward beliefs and tell me exactly what she was doing and how she was feeling while doing it somewhere down the line.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

There was a thread on Reddit today talking about what Azem was doing during the Final Days and some people still insist that they would've been working with Venat who would've told them everything.

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Wouldn't the fact that we're currently sundered imply that Azem didn't actually join them? The rest of her followers were consumed by Hydaelyn. Also, there's already dialogue that implies Azem ghosted everyone. "I had hoped that the defector, at least, would side with us, but I regret to report our overtures have gone unanswered."

Also I might be behind the curve, but upon reviewing that clip, I cant help but notice there's 12 Ancients just standing there with her...

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Originally Posted by Nilroreo

Also I might be behind the curve, but upon reviewing that clip, I cant help but notice there's 12 Ancients just standing there with her...

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Yep, assuming you're making the connection between twelve followers and "The Twelve", it's been speculation ever since that scene popped up in ShB. Yoshida said that their souls were entirely consumed by the creation of Hydaelyn, though, so if they are the gods then maybe they were created by her as some sort of weird "tribute".