How to Dragoon per Second: A DPS Paradigm

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Originally Posted by Wegente

Quick question since I'm planning to slowly make my relic as well, does that mean that having any more than 625 sks is completely useless if my GCD is 2.39s already?

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Some people believe sks reduces gcd in tiers (599 = 2.40, 625 = 2.39), while others believe that every point of sks counts, just the UI won't show the decimals past the hundredths. If the former is true then yes any sks past 625 is wasted until you reach the 2.38 tier (which is 651 iirc).

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Originally Posted by SunnyHirose

You just swap it in if it's crit/det. But the accuracy relic BiS is slightly better right now, about 3 more DPS in simulation (yes, even losing 1 WD! No, I have not lost my mind here; WD values have never been this high and goon secondary itemization hasn't had to face a dilemma like the alexandrian/scripture pants before).

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How did this happen? I'm truly curious because I see so much talk about WD being the end all be all of everything.

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Originally Posted by Aquaslash

How did this happen? I'm truly curious because I see so much talk about WD being the end all be all of everything.

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The scaling of dps with respect to crit is quadratic, so the more crit you have, the more valuable every additional point of crit is. This is the opposite of det/WD/str, since the scaling of dps with respect to det/WD/str is linear, they have diminishing returns.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

The scaling of dps with respect to crit is quadratic, so the more crit you have, the more valuable every additional point of crit is. This is the opposite of det/WD/str, since the scaling of dps with respect to det/WD/str is linear, they have diminishing returns.

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Was there a certain threshold in crit that we passed to get to this point?

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Originally Posted by Aquaslash

Was there a certain threshold in crit that we passed to get to this point?

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No, it's not related to any threshold. But if you ask whether there was a threshold where 1 point of crit was less valuable than 1 point of det, there might be, though I don't know and it doesn't seem relevant anymore.


Think of it as something like this, f (damage) is a function of x (crit), and f(x) = x^2.

If your crit is 100, then f(100) = 10000, adding 1 crit here would give you f(101) = 10201, which is a 201 damage increase.

But if your crit is 1000, then f(1000) = 1000000, adding 1 crit here would give you f(1001) = 1002001, a 2001 increase.


Meanwhile det is like this, f (damage) is a function of x (det), and f(x) = 5x.

No matter how much det you have, adding 1 point of det would increase f's value by 5.

So if the current 270 relic with acc/crit is only 3 dps higher than the alex spear, how big will the dps gain be once it reaches 275?

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Originally Posted by Aquaslash

How did this happen? I'm truly curious because I see so much talk about WD being the end all be all of everything.

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WD is still king but DRG has special circumstances with respect to gearing. The Sub stats are suboptimal on the 275 (Cap SKS) and the Shire pants are shit (we are forced to use it cuz acc). In this special scenario, by getting the relic to be cap crit and enough acc to cover the loss of the Shire pants, you can equip the extremely potent Alex pants thus the net result is a statweight gain over the BiS with the 275. So its not really because the 270 relic is more powerful per-se than the 275 but what it allows you to do.

Correct. I don't think of it as something SE intended, what stats would be best for us, or what you should be doing in general. This is a "corner case" of design decisions made years ago with very few amendments, is only achievable with end-of-expansion gear, it becomes mere trivia once they release the final anima step, then becomes even more irrelevant in a few months when Stormblood drops.

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Originally Posted by LiquidSwordz

So if the current 270 relic with acc/crit is only 3 dps higher than the alex spear, how big will the dps gain be once it reaches 275?

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Ballpark 35 DPS (-> ~2669), a 1.3% gain over 270 relic BiS. I left crit alone for that estimate; that should bump it a little more.

It should be interesting to see what, if anything, SE does about this scaling. Obviously they don't want to explode the numbers in a fit of exponential madness, but a difference like that is hardly noticeable.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

Some people believe sks reduces gcd in tiers (599 = 2.40, 625 = 2.39), while others believe that every point of sks counts, just the UI won't show the decimals past the hundredths. If the former is true then yes any sks past 625 is wasted until you reach the 2.38 tier (which is 651 iirc).

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There's no belief in this theory it's been tested and proven by both me and Dervy that it's tiered.

So do drgs think about Trick Attack at all? I'm still getting the rotation down so i don't really pay attention to how my CDs align with how it's used through out a fight. But i know on monk i'd think about it a lot. Do any drgs plan some of their CDs around it/ ever hold anything for it?

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Originally Posted by Claymore022

So do drgs think about Trick Attack at all? I'm still getting the rotation down so i don't really pay attention to how my CDs align with how it's used through out a fight. But i know on monk i'd think about it a lot. Do any drgs plan some of their CDs around it/ ever hold anything for it?

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NIN should be the one planning TA around the party, not the other way around (syncing it around B4B cooldown is a good start since they are all shared with most DPS). Especially for DRG, since it's an immense DPS loss holding out our oGCDs.

The main gripe for DRG and TA is Chaos Thrust. Since we're jamming as much as we can into our BfB+IR+Potion window there isn't really much wiggle room even if the NIN does something not to our liking. Typically we get dat Jump nuke so that's nice.

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Originally Posted by Claymore022

So do drgs think about Trick Attack at all? I'm still getting the rotation down so i don't really pay attention to how my CDs align with how it's used through out a fight. But i know on monk i'd think about it a lot. Do any drgs plan some of their CDs around it/ ever hold anything for it?

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The best you can do is communicate with your NIN about Battle Litany and Trick Attack cooldowns. You can usually land them both in the same window without losing an usage of either. Obviously you can also hold Geirskogul for a time if you know Trick Attack is on it's way in the next 10 seconds or so. Sometimes I like to hold OGCds for Trick Attack but this is a very case by case basis since losing even a single use is a DPS loss overall.

One example would be the little phase between the first Limit Cut and ATM (ship phase) on a11s to skip Lapis. The timeframe is small enough for you to not lose an usage and the long downtime right after ensures that everything will be up anyways once you land. This of course is highly dependent on your whole team's DPS output.

I have tried and tried and tried some more, and I have never been able to skip lapis. Closest I've been is 62%. For the drg player, do you basically use your standard opener and then save ogcds at optical sights to have another opener ready after limit cut? Or do you just need to go ham the whole time?

Also, any tips for a good opener on Scathach? I'd like to not take a vuln stack, but I'd also like to not lose a buffed GK or botd in general

Hi im new and im trying to understand the Rotation + opener but i have 3 questions:

1: "And so, here's an even better opener:

H -> [BL+BFB] -> ID -> [IR+BOTD] -> DI -> [DRAC-POT] -> CT -> [PS+ LEGS] -> 4TH -> [JUMP] -> P -> [SSD] -> TT -> [DFD] -> VP -> [LIFES + GK] -> FT -> 4TH -> Repeat"

what is DRAC and SSD?

2: i like this Rotation: "A step by step rotation for a full "cycle" is:"

HT - ID - DI - [BOTD] - CT - 4TH - [GK] - PH - TT - VP - FT - 4TH

HT - ID - DI - CT - 4TH - [GK] - PH - TT - VP - FT - 4TH

HT - ID - DI - CT - 4TH - [GK] - PH - TT - VP - [BOTD] - FT - 4TH - [GK]

HT - ID - DI - CT - 4TH - PH - TT - VP - FT - 4TH - [GK]

HT - ID - DI - CT - 4TH - PH - TT - VP - FT - 4TH - [GK]

but how often do i use the opener cause at the end u wrote "repeat" and when do i start the cycle?

3) which of the 2 Tier 4 (Fang & Claw, or Wheeling Thrust) do i use?

ty for u work !!!!

1. Drac and SSD are "Draconian Potion of Strength" and "Spineshatter Dive"

2. "Opener" typically refers the start of the fight, where you have all your cooldowns available. Generally after your second 4th tier move, all of your global cooldown attacks can be repeated, starting from heavy thrust. You can generally use your off cooldowns as soon as they're available again, which some adjustments as the situation may call for.

3. It's random. One of them will randomly be available after each Chaos Thrust or Full Thrust. You'll need to pay attention to which one procs so that you can get the proper positional

ty for the explainations!
so after the opener i do the cycle and everytime the CD are off ich squeeze them in when necessary?

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Originally Posted by Aquaslash

I have tried and tried and tried some more, and I have never been able to skip lapis. Closest I've been is 62%. For the drg player, do you basically use your standard opener and then save ogcds at optical sights to have another opener ready after limit cut? Or do you just need to go ham the whole time?

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It's very much a team effort.

What you have to realize as well is that timings and RNG plays a big part in it. To increase your success chances you want to have the boss as much below 70% after the first phase as possible. To achieve this the boss has to be pushed below 72% while he's busy doing an ability, in this case Optical Sight. This is the RNG part as getting the Shiva pattern is a lot better for your DPS than the other pattern.
After Limit Cut you have to push the boss to as close to 60% as possible before he takes off. The options here are to either:

A) Have high enough DPS to push it straight off the bat
B) Have low enogh DPS to not skip the Left/Right Sword to get a few more precious GCDs

After CC lands everyone still has a chance to hit 1 GCD + 1 OGCd before the boss becomes invulnerable. Limit Break 1 can and should be used here if you wouldn't skip otherwise, don't worry about the LB hitting invulnerability as it will go through as long as you start the cast immediately after the boss becomes targetable. If you manage to push the boss to 60.9% he'll become vulnerable again right after he finishes casting Limit Cut and commence Eternal Darkness.

For the dragoon this doesn't change much other than the fact that you really want to have BotD up as soon as the pre-airship phase starts, as well as having it up again right after you land. You also might want to hold your OGCDs during the pre-ship phase.
You can get in two Leg Sweeps, one Jump, two Geirskoguls, and a Spineshatter and DFD depending on your DPS on the first phase. It is optimal to land as many of these as possible inside Trick Attack/Hypercharge. What I've done to solve the BotD conundrum is doing the 4 GK/70s rotation for the first phase, delaying the last GK until the boss starts casting Limit Cut and blowing my BotD there (althought you might be able to get more GKs in if your DPS is significantly lower).
During the numbered Limit Cut I do HT -> ID -> Botd -> Dis -> CT -> (boss becomes vulnerable here) B4b -> 4th -> Phleb.
This BotD timing allows full GK usage in the first phase, gets you into the pre-ship phase with BotD, Disembowel and CT already applied which allows you to spam TTT combo and weave OGCDs for the whole phase AND have BotD up again before Eternal Darkness.

Word going around the block is that the Proto Ultima ring might be a new BiS, overwriting the shire one. Can we get some mathematicians on the scene?

Edit: Go with this http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/Z38R. Swap out for proto ultima ring and necklace, switch to alex feet, and restat relic some more.

Old stuff below:

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I'll take a stab at it. tl;dr, I believe the proto ultima ring is ever so slightly better than the shire ring, if I'm going off the relic BiS set (http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/Z4GK) (http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/YT92) Also ariyala isn't updated yet.

Shire Ring: 22.419

Ultima Ring: 23.931

2 things I want to point out:

• I'm using a weight 0.290 for Crit, according to Dervy's estimate on its new weight due to the higher average crit baseline with the relic set (which isn't reflected on the front page of this thread).
• Changing to the ultima ring in place of the shire ring is an increase of 17 ss. So there are a few adjustments that went into calculating the weight of the ultima ring: Removing the extra 3 ss from the relic and putting it back into det (crit ends up maxed at 275 with just acc restats), and subtracting the extra 14 ss from the weight that is wasted since it's over the 625 ss tier.

So the ultima ring looks like this:

59 ss - 10.03
54 crit - 15.66
=25.69
-2.38 (extra 14 ss)
+.621 (restat 3 ss to 3 det in the relic)
=23.931

So yeah, slightly better. I believe. http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/Z4GP

What I don't know is if the rest of the ultima accessories open up other avenues of gear sets, or if there's a way to bring that SS back down. I'm too tired to look more into that right now.

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Originally Posted by dark494

Go with this http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/Z38R

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Ariyala relic stat allocation is odd atm, as it usually is, so if you want 3 different stats on it, the maximum infused stats is 283/285

The set you linked, if I'm not wrong would be as follows: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/Z4UI = 3471.686

As we can only get 1 jewel per week, I'm using this so far: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/Z4TR = 3471.781

As you can see, the set I'm using is wasting way too much skill speed and I'm still in the 2.39 tier

So even tho the set you linked with the corrected relic stats is lower in ariyala (super tight difference), it's actually higher because you are gaining 21 determination (4,347) vs 8 crit (2,232)

I'm looking forward to go for it next week if we don't discover something better, GJ!

Yeah, 283/284 stats is what you can achieve. This is the lazy set I'm currently using so I'm not burning food for everything that requires 699 acc, like all the bird farming I'm still doing. http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/Z59D

Hello,

My dragoon is my only job, and I try to have the best stuff, as everyone. But I don't know how to choose between different gears. For example for feet, I have :
+ Prototype Alexandrian Sollerets : IL 250 / STR 89 / ACCU 72 / VIT 98 / CRIT 51
+ Shire Pathfinder Sollerets : IL 260 / STR 96 / CRIT 76 / VIT 107 / SS 53
+ Diabolic Sabaton of Maiming : IL 260 / STR 96 / ACCU 76 / VIT 107 / DET 51

I know that STR is very important, as CRIT and DET. So how can I make a choice ?
Thanks for advices

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Originally Posted by MarinDoDouce

Hello,

My dragoon is my only job, and I try to have the best stuff, as everyone. But I don't know how to choose between different gears. For example for feet, I have :
+ Prototype Alexandrian Sollerets : IL 250 / STR 89 / ACCU 72 / VIT 98 / CRIT 51
+ Shire Pathfinder Sollerets : IL 260 / STR 96 / CRIT 76 / VIT 107 / SS 53
+ Diabolic Sabaton of Maiming : IL 260 / STR 96 / ACCU 76 / VIT 107 / DET 51

I know that STR is very important, as CRIT and DET. So how can I make a choice ?
Thanks for advices

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There's this thing called "stat weight" which pretty much gives a value for crit/det/sks in terms of str. Check Dervy's site for details: https://dervyxiv.wordpress.com/stat-weights/

Then you can use Ariyala's website (http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/DRG) and click on the BiS solver to show stat weights for every piece.

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Originally Posted by MarinDoDouce

snip

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It's 99% of the time the best to go with the piece with the highest STR value. There are some cases where a piece of gear will be loaded with enough bad stats for a lower ilevel item to be better but this is rare.
If you don't feel like consulting a website whenever you're choosing a piece of gear (which you should, mind you, if you want the most out of your resources) there's a simplified priority list of stats:

ACC(up to 699)>STR>CRIT>DET>SKSP

Looking at stat-weight alone for a single piece of gear can be deceiving as it doesn't account for accuracy and massive spikes/drops in skill speed which can make it worse that it looks on paper. Not having enough accuracy makes all your other stats worth less since you aren't actually hitting your target and having too much or too little of skill speed can mess up your rotation big time. Linking your full gear set would be helpful when looking for gear-related advice.

Thanks , its exactly what i needed.

Forget relic/alex spears, diadem weapons are i280 :( random stats, though I'm sure with enough grinding it won't matter lol.

https://puu.sh/uAYUT/edd816887a.jpg

YesYesYesYesYes

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Originally Posted by Sentinillia

https://puu.sh/uAYUT/edd816887a.jpg

YesYesYesYesYes

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lmao.

too short msg ye ye

Hei there, i'm an old FF14 player who mains dragoon. I've been out of the game for 10+ months now so i'm a lil bit outdated with BiS and opener/rotation. A friend of mine told me to check this post to find the new mid-core and hard-core rotation + BiS for dragoon, but honestly i scrolled down tons of pages but i couldn't find the exact page (maybe i'm blind or just tired, hopefully it's not in the main post, in that case i'm a lil tard :D). Can anyone please link me to it or give me some hints for that? :P Thanks in advice.

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Originally Posted by YankeeSenpai

Hei there, i'm an old FF14 player who mains dragoon. I've been out of the game for 10+ months now so i'm a lil bit outdated with BiS and opener/rotation. A friend of mine told me to check this post to find the new mid-core and hard-core rotation + BiS for dragoon, but honestly i scrolled down tons of pages but i couldn't find the exact page (maybe i'm blind or just tired, hopefully it's not in the main post, in that case i'm a lil tard :D). Can anyone please link me to it or give me some hints for that? :P Thanks in advice.

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Both your beginner, and advanced rotations, as well as the math and reasoning behind them will be in the 4th post.

Make us proud, young Padawan :)

I have a question about the 2.4s GCD value recommended. I know this has something to do with HT's 24s duration and being able to complete our 10-step rotation sequence and perform the next HT before it drops off.

However I noticed that even with a 2.5s GCD, you can get the next HT in before the previous HT buff falls off. The reason is the next HT is applied at the start of the 10th GCD and not the end, so you actually need less time than it appears (unless of course you want to weave/double weave behind that HT, which while can potentially happen I don't see being a frequent enough use case to justify it). There also aren't any issues performing 3 GKs per minute at a 2.5s gcd.

I was just wondering if I'm missing something and there are other upsides to having a GCD that short. Having more leeway to deal with mechanics in actual fights is one thing, but how much of that is quantifiable? It seems like a really touchy feely argument to me.

I am barely getting Heavy Thrust in at 2.38s GCD, So you must be skipping something if you're getting it with that slow of a GCD.

Are you using:
HT -> ID -> DIS -> CT -> 4th -> Phleb -> TT -> VT -> FT -> 4th -> HT? If not, that's what you're missing. It seems to me you may be skipping Phlebotomize which is a major part of Drg dps and rotation at 60.

EDIT: HT should actually fall on your 11th GCD, not your 10th. There are 10 GCDs BETWEEN Heavy Thrusts. Therefore you must be skipping something.

It's the 11th GCD yes, but as you said that means there are 10 GCD intervals between the first HT application and the 2nd.

When you factor in that the subsequent HT lands at very roughly ~0.5s into into 11th GCD (the 10th GCD interval), it's really more like 9.2 GCD intervals than 10. 9.2 x 2.5s is 23 seconds which would seem to imply that mathematically it is possible - albeit very tight as I mentioned.

But yes that's what I'm doing, HT - 1234 - Phleb - 1234 - HT, and even with a 2.5s GCD the HT buff is still present when that subsequent HT is applied. I would jump into some recording software to compile a very short gif showing it, but really it's trivial to test against a dummy and see for yourself. I don't have the best connection in the world either so I don't think it's a matter of having perfect latency or something.

Perhaps your latency is lower than mine or something. I'm at work now, but when I get home this evening I will definitely have to test this.

However, I will add that while this may be possible on a dummy, it's highly unlikely on a boss. From experience, I rarely have more than 1-2 seconds of HT left when I reapply and I am actually above the SS cap as DRG is not my main. That said, perhaps I'm doing something wrong.

The general consensus is that 2.4s, or more specifically 2.39s GCD is the optimal GCD for maximum dps and I agree, so I would aim for that regardless if it's *possible* to do with a slower GCD. I'm not sure how you would actually get any less SS without stacking way too much accuracy with the way gear is currently anyhow, but it's an interesting theory. I will definitely be trying it out when I get off work.

Yes, I'm open to the argument that in actual fights against bosses, margins that small would be a liability. If you have to step away from the boss for a couple of seconds for a mechanic before reengaging - now your next HT (and possibly more) isn't covered by the previous HT.

My only issue with that line of reasoning is you can't quantify it easily, it's a really touchy feely argument similar to casters saying "More sks gives more chance that I'll be able to slidecast out of a mechanic". It's a potential DPS increase, but can it be proven with math that it outweighs biasing your stats toward sks instead of, say, det? That's not so simple.

Re: gearing, it's true we have a lot of sks on gear, especially sks that's bundled with gear with crit on it. Hypothetically, if it were favourable to lose sks, my hunch is we would do what the machinists do and opt for acc/det over crit/sks. I'm aware crit has a really good reputation among the community, but the reality is no stat is infallible. Would you take 9 crit, or 999 det? It's just a matter of the margins involved.

Anyway, I hope people will try it and let me know what I'm missing. I highly doubt such a lynchpin of HW DRG theorycrafting would be subject to a simple oversight like that.

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Originally Posted by Myon88

Anyway, I hope people will try it and let me know what I'm missing. I highly doubt such a lynchpin of HW DRG theorycrafting would be subject to a simple oversight like that.

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I think this is the biggest evidence against your theory, however it is theorycrafting and not factcrafting after all.

While I agree it is not necessarily quantifiable, this logic doesn't necessarily apply to casters. Spell speed will always be a dps increase for casters because more casts in a given time frame is always a dps increase, and also allows for the potential of getting in that extra cast before having to move. Sure, crit could potentially increase dps more, but ss consistently makes you faster and therefore more potent, as well as the DoT scaling with SMN now. But that's all for another thread. Additionally, I don't think this necessarily applies to drg because we aren't stacking it, simply hitting a given threshold and then all but avoiding it.

You have a point about the idea of stacking acc/det instead, however the problem is that crit is so much more valuable than det. I don't believe there is enough Det in the game currently to compensate the crit and ss you would lose, as ss is still a dps increase and has a stat weight in the end.

The stat weights for dragoons currently put a point of det at ~75% the value of a point of crit. There are issues with static stat weights but that too is another whole thread and I won't go into it here - let's assume they're reasonably accurate.

Crit wins as expected, but it's not as big a gulf as I would've thought. There is a very strong 'crit or die' mentality amongst the community, but the stat weights say it right there, 4 det is equal to 3 crit. If you offered me 5 det, or 3 crit, I would have to choose the 5 det based on the findings.

It seems within the realm of possibility that *if* - and this is a big if - some sks is extraneous, we could gain enough det (as well as det on the relic from all the accuracy we don't need there any more) to outweigh the loss of crit that was bundled with sks (on our legs, feet, neck, and wrists especially, since there we are choosing between crit/sks and acc/det).

As for casters, I won't deny sks is mathematically an excellent stat for them. That is a fact. It's just that the additional merits of potentially having less cancelled casts due to mechanics is a perk often touted that is above and beyond the base utility of the stat. For them skillspeed is a great stat even in a standstill scenario, but to say that it's an even better stat when you have to move? How much better exactly is something that needs to be quantified. Can you be certain that you had to cancel your cast because it was 3.3s instead of 3.28s? Maybe if you were bolder you might have gotten away with it anyway? My point is, it's anecdotal, it's not scientific either.

That is a reasonable assumption. As I am a main Blm, I didn't investigate how much Det Drgs could gain by stacking Det/Acc instead of Crit/SS/Det. So the problem with stacking Det/Acc over Crit/SS is that the Det has to outweigh both Crit and SS as a whole, since accuracy has no value beyond the minimum. Basing this off static stat weights of course. I would like to see someone with a bit more experience with theorycrafting than myself weigh in as well.

As to casters, there are indeed merits beyond the "I can move easier" argument, however that is also a potential boon, even if it's situational. I agree you can't apply a value to it, but it is undeniably a benefit to stacking SpS and is worth mentioning. But I agree there is no measure to how much better.

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Originally Posted by Myon88

I was just wondering if I'm missing something and there are other upsides to having a GCD that short. Having more leeway to deal with mechanics in actual fights is one thing, but how much of that is quantifiable? It seems like a really touchy feely argument to me.

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It helps me get 9 GCDs under Blood for blood, especially when the last GCD is a DoT.