Blue Mage: Are you kidding me!?

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Originally Posted by Starcake28

Same go for blue mage was level 5 dearth in every FF Game For blue mage ceallach

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As far as blue magic goes, we have the following.

• FINAL FANTASY IV: The After Year's Calca
• FINAL FANTASY V's blue mage
• FINAL FANTASY VI's Strago Magus
• FINAL FANTASY VII's Enemy Skill materia
• FINAL FANTASY VIII's Quistis Trepe
• FINAL FANTASY IX's Quina Quen
• FINAL FANTASY X's Khimari
• FINAL FANTASY X-2's gun mage
• FINAL FANTASY XI's blue mage
• Bravely Default's vampire
• Bravely Second's catmancer

We could say Calca, Strago, Khimari, the Enemy Skill materia, catmancer, and vampire are excluded because there's nothing to say these are blue magic in particular. They could be using some other way to mimic enemy abilities. The gun mage does not fall under this exception because they use Blue Bullets.

Of every appearance of blue magic under that name, only Mighty Guard and White Wind appear every single time. Both of them are also used by Strago, Khimari, anyone equipped with Enemy Skill materia (though Mighty Guard is called "Big Guard") and catmancers can use White Wind.

Thn tht mean no blue mage don't need level 5 death. This what i see he don't really want us playing a class tht has heals' dps ' and defense in main content. Because of this elite FF players will always be on there a game tht mean carrying ppl etc.Tht's already happening but he don't want a job like blue mage in FF14 because he know blue mage have alot of. Awesome stuff tht make other jobs look bad also blue mage really make black mage loook bad so he don't want tht to happen. He trying to keep black mage up there look at all the damage black mage been getting lately there's always something ppl do Tht's not fair to others and this is one of thm so game we waiting for January 15 whn everything is on the table whn i hit level 50 and blue mage Can't do alot of stuff i'll be backhere again or make a new thread. But who really knows no one right now till January 15 then we all can speak out again .

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Originally Posted by Kalise

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Which makes sense, for you. There are however many people that will rush through the job quests, skip every cutscenes for all MSQs just to reach the lvl cap. And these people have every right to BLU as "BLU mains". The problem with a traditional BLU is that it has inherent road blocks to rushing through content. You can skip everything and have almost no skills at the end. People will complain that they are forced to do this tedious grinding where everyone else has most of their skills on lvl. And...they have a point.

And how will you accommodate these people without taking away from the learning aspect? It's a difficult thing designing BLU and it irks me to see people being so nonchalantly critical of SE when most ideas presented here are generally much worse.

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Originally Posted by Auryan

Which makes sense, for you. There are however many people that will rush through the job quests, skip every cutscenes for all MSQs just to reach the lvl cap. And these people have every right to BLU as "BLU mains". The problem with a traditional BLU is that it has inherent road blocks to rushing through content. You can skip everything and have almost no skills at the end. People will complain that they are forced to do this tedious grinding where everyone else has most of their skills on lvl. And...they have a point.

And how will you accommodate these people without taking away from the learning aspect? It's a difficult thing designing BLU and it irks me to see people being so nonchalantly critical of SE when most ideas presented here are generally much worse.

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Well...

Then those people shouldn't have mained BLU?

It's like maining RDM and then complaining about how you have to deal with the Dualcast mechanic.

Or maining a melee DPS and complaining about how you have to play around positionals.

BLU is defined by this learning spells aspect. It's a core design of the class and has been throughout the entirety of the Final Fantasy series. If someone chooses to main that class and then is upset that they have to do all this busy work to learn their skills, then that's their problem. No-one forced them to main BLU and heck, even Yoshida said that World First players just wouldn't use BLU so you can't even say that they're pressured to main BLU by their peers.

Why spoil the fun for everyone else, because someone wanted to main a class despite not liking a core design feature.

Should we ban WAR from group play because they're forced to be a Tank role and someone just wanted to play DPS using an Axe?

Should we ban MNK from group play because someone has to deal with using positional skills to maximize their effectiveness?

I could go on.

I mean, those same people who would complain about maining BLU and then having to spend extra time to collect spells STILL get screwed over, because they just CAN'T main BLU and rush to end-game and start raiding at all, because BLU is limited.

At least without the limitation, people who accept BLU's nature and take the learning feature as part of the package that is maining BLU would be able to actually main BLU in actual content, even if those rush, rush, rush mindset players might complain when they decide to main BLU when there's plenty of other classes they would be better suited to play instead...

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Originally Posted by Kalise

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If only it were that easy, but no. Most people aren't actually interested in "maining" a new job. They give it a try, see if they like it and stick with it or not and drop it. Every job is designed to appeal to as many people as possible. Which includes people who love the idea of BLU and people who are just bored of their old jobs and want something new to lvl. BLU would be no different if it was designed as a standard job. It's that part that contradicts BLU's learning aspect, because it does need work to get all of its abilities and you can't just rush through it and expect everything to be alright.

It's not so much about spoiling anyone's fun, but making a job accessible to as many as people as possible. That is how they've designed every job to be, and BLU's learning aspect doesn't fit with that philosophy. To you the skill hunting is a fun little side adventure, to others a tedious slog that only BLU has to go through. You're examples pertains to job mechanics and not the competing interests between job identity and philosophy of designing jobs.

If anything, BLU's limitation doubles down on its more core concepts. You know have much more spells to learn than you would have gotten from a standard version. The types of skills learned are now much less likely to be cookie cutter and more likely to be crazy and funny. You also have something that no other job has: a choice in how you set your build.

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Originally Posted by Auryan

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I'm sorry, but that's a moronic line of thought.

If people with a rush mentality, don't like BLU, they don't have to play it. If it's not a main job, then what do they care if it takes a bit more time to get the skills? It's a side thing for them is it not? Due to it not being their main job (Which is literally the reasoning given why people wouldn't like BLU as a normal job, because other people will be rushing to end-game on their mains while they have to go learn their skills)

Making the job more accessible to as many people as possible? BY RESTRICTING IT so that anyone who wants to use it for Duty Finder play, raiding and all content that is being restricted away from BLU CANNOT USE THE JOB? As opposed to "Well, people who wanna rush to end-game will have to take a bit more time to do so... Yes, they are still capable of doing so and they can still rush to learn the mandatory skills ASAP but it just takes a bit longer than other jobs"

Sure, you could argue that there are more spells to learn because it's a side job so you can get stuff like Level 5 Death, but on the other hand, there could easily have been the same number of spells and just restrict certain ones in actual content (I.e. The ones that would be too powerful for regular use) which would also lessen the burden of the rush mentality players from needing to go learn all the skills, since they would only need to learn the ones relevant to the content they're aiming for in order to rush into it (With the others being a side activity they could do). Heck, it would also lessen the burden on the designers too, since they would be able to focus on the core skills that are usable in every bit of content first, then anything else they come up with can be added as and when they come up with it during updates.

Honestly, I cannot see a single aspect of limiting BLU that is in any way, shape or form actually beneficial over just releasing it as a normal job (Increasing the accessibility by allowing people who don't do solo content much/at all to have more room to play with it), allowing for its use in all content (So raiders could still raid with BLU, increasing accessibility) and just simply letting players play with it as they wish.

If someone DID start complaining about being forced to "Slog" through BLU's spell learning, it's not as if we've a shortage of jobs that they could play as an alternative without that mechanic, to say nothing of the next expansions jobs.

Again, the only weight it could possibly have, is if someone really wanted to main BLU and thus felt FORCED into the learning mechanic in order to continue maining BLU. Otherwise, it's really as simple as "Don't like it? Play something else then?" much like everyone already does with classes they don't like to play (As much as their preferred ones)

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Originally Posted by Starcake28

Thn tht mean no blue mage don't need level 5 death. This what i see he don't really want us playing a class tht has heals' dps ' and defense in main content. Because of this elite FF players will always be on there a game tht mean carrying ppl etc.Tht's already happening but he don't want a job like blue mage in FF14 because he know blue mage have alot of. Awesome stuff tht make other jobs look bad also blue mage really make black mage loook bad so he don't want tht to happen. He trying to keep black mage up there look at all the damage black mage been getting lately there's always something ppl do Tht's not fair to others and this is one of thm so game we waiting for January 15 whn everything is on the table whn i hit level 50 and blue mage Can't do alot of stuff i'll be backhere again or make a new thread. But who really knows no one right now till January 15 then we all can speak out again .

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I think it's more a question of identity. Blue mage throughout the series often gets Level 5 Death, and in an MMORPG setting, that can work. Death in general for the black mage, however, wouldn't. Most often, Level 5 Death hits all enemies, while Death hits a single target. If a boss is immune, fine. If not, that shifts the meta to nothing but blue mages because you can farm high-tier raids with one spell. The same logic applies to black mage getting Death. Of course, they could just make raid bosses level 81 or something from now on to avoid that if blue mage were to cease to be a Limited Job, but then we'd want accuracy on gear back, and that's another whole can of worms they obviously don't want to open.

But as far as job balance goes, the jobs are balanced. The concept of the meta is an extremely flawed one as far as this game goes, and you don't have to follow it to clear raids. In fact, the one and only reason you might care is if you're going for World first clears, and even then, a dark knight was able to pull off the Unending Coil. But introducing blue mage as a regular job would be catastrophic for job balance without sacrificing blue mage's identity as a job that learns enemies' skills and becomes extremely versatile as a result.

Furthermore, there will always be elitists no matter what. It's human nature.

Guys this Blue mages are not limited to the Rules on every other Job in the Game why are you Tring to make it that way. The other side of this is all 15 Jobs we have now are Limited to the Rules of Tank, Healer or DPS. Blue Mages can and will piss off every other Job in the game. there a reason why Blue Mages can go do Dungeons and other content without Playing or asking for a Tank or Healer (just grab 4 Blue Mages and go do whatever). after people have time to understand Blue Mages there be an all tank way to get the spells, all healer way and all DPS way so we can choice which route we want to do and only get though spells. I do understand why they are holding the Job back and I wish they didn't but it will depend if everyone can get along and work together and if not then yeah the Developers are right for doing this.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

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You can question it however you like, but that is how all battle jobs are designed. To be as accessible to as many people as possible, which includes people who just want to skip every job quests (hence why they removed most rewards from them) and MSQs. Of course people with a rush mentality don't have to play it, but they just want to anyway. It's just the learning aspect they dislike and will complain about. And that can damper the popularity of a job, especially when that job is supposed to be a draw for an expansion. Of course, this isn't the case with BLU. But that would be the case if it was listed as the third job for Shadowbringers.

Oh no, I wasn't referring to the limited job system as being more accessible. It side steps that entirely, along with balance, and doubles down on a job's iconic traits. In BLU's case the learning aspect and access to bizarre monster abilities.

Your solution for party-friendly spells and fun spells is not bad, but it makes me think of Eureka's Logogram actions. In the way that you get these very cool abilities/traits that you can toy with, but the moment you leave, they go away. That idea of losing all the cool spells being built in to a job must not be a very pleasant feeling for a player, I know I wouldn't like that. Then again, nerfing them into the ground isn't a better option either.

What I like about BLU is that it's going to be a job that I can do besides my tome stone grinding and weekly raids. Something to do when I don't want to do next Eureka-like content or done with the newest primal. Something that I can build on my own and see what I can get away with. Any other job that I can do 8/24 mans with are plenty. I don't need another one, and I'm sorry that you won't be able to live out your job fantasy how you would like, but in the case like BLU and possibly BST and PUP, you never really had a chance of getting to do that.

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Originally Posted by Auryan

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But even then, if the popularity of the job would be diminished because rush mentality players won't like the learning aspect... Then what's to stop them complaining anyway when they want to play the shiny new BLU that's still got the learning system but is now limited?

Like, if it's the core aspect of the spending time to learn abilities that's the issue causing a lower popularity among rush players... Then making it limited doesn't actually do anything to circumvent that aspect, whilst simultaneously actively including something that will detract players (Myself included, as I mentioned, I'll still play it, but its priority will be below all other classes because it doesn't matter as much as it's not a normal class so it doesn't need to hit normal level caps, get normal gear levels, farm for normal relic weapons, I won't also be able to use it for things like farming mobs for crafting materials, doing Hunts or daily quests because it's being restricted in level until they get around to creating a bunch more spells to go and learn for the next level cap)

As far as losing cool spells built into a job... It's not as if that doesn't happen anyway. What with level down system if you do non-max level dungeons/Fates. Or various skills becoming obsolete as you level up (I can't remember the last time I actually used Butcher's Block for example) or like 90% of Role Actions which are only usable on OTHER players.

Then of course, it also depends on exactly how many OP spells they intend to actually give BLU that would need to be restricted. Like, at the moment, the primary talking point in this regard is Level 5 Death (Which even in content where its usable, it's being limited so that you can't use it on final bosses in dungeons) but really, how many spells will there be that need restricting and thus exactly how bad would it feel to encounter these restrictions in standard gameplay.

I suppose that's just the case of how it goes... Personally, I work on all jobs in my spare time. If I'm not pushing myself to see what content I can solo as a WAR (Which is apparently one of the things that's supposed to make BLU unique and interesting, their ability to solo dungeons?)