PLD dps needs to be buffed, current dps a joke

The safety thing... PLD is/was the desirable MT because an 'optimal : clear-capable' PLD guide was for progressing Statics & summer-child PUGs: easy to replicate. Getting wiped to the same ability over and over: is the PLD following the CD-rotation guide? Yes? Okay tank isn't at fault. Healers & DPS need to step up their healing/debuffs,etc

Going for t9 clear? Follow the PLD-MT-SoloTank CD-by-CD guide provided by "Insert FC name's 7player on-farm static" blog or website guide and boom you're a winner.

Warrior could have the same guide for reference, it'd be just as effective but it'd be twice as long in text and harder to replicate due to GCD-to-GCD dependency. But a WAR OT guide was just as harsh a Q-Q but doable, and done correctly min-max'd WAR OT. Both jobs performing at max potential progressing the raid.

The 2.0 WAR stigma: 2.1+ No MT for j00 bub - that's hive mind. But let's not take this FoTM word too far. Somewhere there is a line in the sand where 'hive-mind' ends and 'progression/clear determined research' begins. Only a fraction of the Coil-cleared playerbase would have made that achievement if it wasn't for 'hive-mind' everyone's harpooning.

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

The safety thing... PLD is/was the desirable MT because an 'optimal : clear-capable' PLD guide was for progressing Statics & summer-child PUGs: easy to replicate.

Going for t9 clear? Follow the PLD-MT-SoloTank CD-by-CD guide provided by "Insert FC name's 7player on-farm static" blog or website guide and boom you're a winner.

Warrior could have the same guide for reference, it'd be just as effective but it'd be twice as long in text and harder to replicate due to GCD-to-GCD dependency. But a WAR OT guide was just as harsh a Q-Q but doable, and done correctly min-max'd WAR OT. Both jobs performing at max potential progressing the raid.

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This whole "twice as long" and "harder to replicate" are the "safety" thing I'm referring to.

PLD: Tank boss, Press CD.
Vs.
WAR: Infuriate at start, make sure you use x GCDs, drop Fracture here or you won't make it, and be careful when to use berserk or you'll be pacified at the worst time. Oh, when you DO use Inner Beast, don't forget to also press CD. For the next IB, don't forget to pop Vengeance to force a Wrath stack, or you won't make it before buster!

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

The 2.0 WAR stigma: 2.1+ No MT for j00 bub - that's hive mind. But let's not take this FoTM word too far. Somewhere there is a line in the sand where 'hive-mind' ends and 'progression/clear determined research' begins. Only a fraction of the Coil-cleared playerbase would have made that achievement if it wasn't for 'hive-mind' everyone's harpooning.

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There is a reason I put every "hive mind" between quotes. lol

My posts were mainly telling people to get out of what the community tells them and try things themselves. WAR MT / PLD OT, WAR MT / DRK OT, PLD/DRK + NIN REALLY work. There is no imbalance if you know how to make a WAR/PLD combination do more DPS than a PLD/WAR combo.

None of the three tanks is rendered in a situation where it is near 2.0 WAR level broken. Heck, there is no situation where any of the tanks is broken.

As a matter of fact, there is an underlying issue with DRK and physical damage mitigation. This will flood the forums "again" once physical heavy encounters are made relevant again.

Yes PLD and DRK probably need some quality of life changes. TP issues are kinda unfair to them. Out side of QoL and said DRK physical mitigation issues, I think tanks are fine as is.

How about giving PLD Reprisal(FFXI) or Riposte(counterattack on successful parry)?

You can't get Riposte unless you get rid of Shield Swipe.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

How about giving PLD Reprisal(FFXI) or Riposte(counterattack on successful parry)?

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Shield Swipe is supposed to fill that "counter attack" roll, but is now a DpS loss if you are using any combo other than RoH.

TBH they could fix pretty much all paladin issues by simply increasing Shield Swipe to like 250-260 potency and making it a 5x threat modifier.

That way they can use more of their Goring/Royal combos without needing to Halone every so often for threat, Shield Swipe would be a DPS increase to hit it when it popped, and it wouldn't increase their offtank dps when not taking hits (which is fine because they bring utility via cover/clemency/divine shield for the offtank role so should be lower than WAR/DRK that just bring damage).

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Originally Posted by Noira

You can't get Riposte unless you get rid of Shield Swipe.

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Considering Riposte is generally added as a passive, automatic thing as Shield Swipe is annoying to use because its on GCD?

No.

shield swipe should have been an oGCD, since the very first beginning of ARR.

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Originally Posted by ks3v3n

shield swipe should have been an oGCD, since the very first beginning of ARR.

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I agree with this. It would get used much more often.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

You assuming I'm a WAR in the first place and adding me to a non-existing "WAR-hive mind" is a total joke.

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Really? I find that hard to believe.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Not really, people took PLD to MT and they took "another tank" to OT. The other tank didn't matter as PLD or WAR were fine. Double jobs LB penalty didn't prevent groups from taking double MNKs for the entirety of SCoB and FCoB progression and that "meta" only broke when NIN came out since Trick Attack added more raid DPS than 1 MNK dropping DK in favor of Bootshine.

You also pointed out somewhere in your post that people would take double WAR if it had the defenses of PLD. Well, why aren't they already? Since DPS is everything and all. Again, LB penalty didn't stop people from double monking in SCoB and FCoB.

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Just like there are groups that take 2x MNK, there are groups that take 2x WAR. Most people don't take 2x same class for LB and loot consideration.
Also why on earth would you take a PLD (or DRK for that matter) when they do less damage than WAR as OT and they run out of TP in the first half of the battle?

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Check this. DRK is 3% behind WAR, PLD is 8% behind WAR.
Yes it's a dummy parse. Yes it's "too perfect" with all these buffs provided. But in a real fight PLD comes closer because of down times (bosses jump and have in-vulnerabilities).

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Yes it's too perfect for your narrative, but only for that. Let's see. You have 2 people buffing the DRK and the PLD (slash debuff and TP). Why doesn't the WAR get a slash debuff and has to loose dps to keep it up himself? Why does the WAR suffer the full effect of pacification and you don't have a healer remove the debuff from him?
Why does the video cut off like that? Why doesn't the WAR have enough skill speed to fit 3 combos on one berserk (could be wrong about this one since it's not the tank's pov and you can't see the abilities and rotations used clearly)? As a matter of fact why isn't it a tank PoV so we see and judge their rotations easier?
The video is also ignoring 2 important the facts:
1. Gear optimization for each class. (For example +crit is way more beneficial on WAR than any other classes, plus you need skill speed enough to use 3 full combos in berserk).
2. No enmity generation. This just dps without building any actual enmity, which will never happen in a raid environment. You will have to go to tank stance to build enmity. Guess will build faster and more efficient and can go back to dps stance faster to do more damage.
So you have a video where everything is stacked against the war, while helping the other two tanks as much as you can to get the result you want, and preach it like it's a fact. Talk about being disingenuous. In a real fight the margin will be not be smaller, it will be MUCH wider, especially with a good WAR.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

People not going PLD / DRK is just a stupidity thing. It's like why people wouldn't let WAR solo tank T9 or Shiva Ex. In the end there are those that did them.

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So basically you are sore because PUGS wanted PLD for solo tank in 2.0 instead of WAR. (You are not a WAR though). Aren't those the same pugs that demanded a WHM for solo healing?
Congratulation. PLD is OP in PUGS where people will probably wont be that good and you will need as much healing power and safety as you can get. I even said that myself in a previous post.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Here are a few reasons why you are wrong:

- Even when planned, Holmgang is not worth using. A WAR stacking any of its CDs with IB will reduce far more damage and require far less healing than a WAR going down to 1HP and then healed back to full. Same can be said about DRK. This is the main reason WARs and DRKs don't "plan" using Holmgang and LD unless they really need to.
- Hallowed Ground can cheese an entire mechanic or render a tank buster irrelevant.
- Most end-game fights are 11 to 15 minutes. You can use HG effectively twice. Planning them WILL make an encounter easier.

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Are you mad or you are just trolling? Holmgang is not worth using? Really? All you have to do is be in dps stance, go tank stance right before the tank buster and pop Holmgang. You get hit by the tank buster, pop equilibrium if you're feeling like helping the healers (or ToB or both if you're feeling particularly generous to your healers), wait to get topped up and immediately go to dps stance with extra hp and cooldowns that will help you stay in dps stance longer and use that IB as fell cleave.
You aren't loosing healer dps since they will pretty much have to go healer stance (if they haven't already) to heal you any way. The damage they loose by staying in healing stance a little longer to top you off is negligible compared to the damage the WAR will gain from staying in DPS stance longer by saving the extra cooldowns (and converting that IB to Fell Cleave).

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

WAR is missing far more than just Hallowed Ground. WAR receives 4% less healing from spells and 20% less from abilities. I'd want that "fixed" before I'd even ask for Hallowed Ground.

If anything, I am sick of Hallowed Ground because for the entirety of ARR, I used to breech at WAR MT PLD OT and the paladins would reply with "Hallowed Ground". Now that it is inconvenient you wish it wasn't there? The joke's on you PLDs. What's even funnier is that PLDs now retort at WARs with "But you have Inner Beast!".

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While we are it, let's give WAR an increase to Fell Cleave potency and some healing when he goes to tank stance. After that we can give him hallowed ground so he wont be feeling left out. You are totally not a WAR though.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Efficiency is one thing and people naturally always pick up the most efficient route. But you are ignoring the whole healing efficiency. People dying is an huge raid-wide DPS. But since you want to stick to your misinformed point-of-view I won't "argue" safety.

Yes PLD may not be in the best spot it's been since 2.0, but it is not in a bad spot. It is no where near AST or 2.0 WAR.

WAR is sitting comfortably in the OT spot because PLD and DRK are fighting each other hard for the MT spot. Should I mention how annoying it is from a balance (more like Hive mindset) perspective that WAR is stuck with the "over-glorified DPS" role where it's never the preferred MT?

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Oh noes! WAR can MT but they wont let me MT because I do insane damage as OT where the other tanks are picking up their pieces after running out of TP mid fight, while still doing less damage than me even before their TP runs out. Still not a WAR though.
For the record I never said that PLD is as bad as AST but it's not fine either. Also the healing efficiency gained from having a PLD isn't that high because healing efficiency from dps is higher than healing efficiency from defences. You don't need 20 seconds of healing efficiency by having a PLD when you can gain 1 minute of healing efficiency by clearing earlier with more dps.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Bad stat design is this game's biggest flaw. But you know why people ignore VIT and Parry? It's because of the tank's defensive CDs! Guess who has the best? Oh right! PLD!

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Maybe PLD is the source of server crashes and network bottlenecks as well? Are you kidding me? VIT and Parry and worthless because the bosses auto attacks do very little damage. You can practically tank those auto attacks in dps stance and not break a sweat. Heck you can even let a dps tank the boss auto-attacks.
The only considerable amount of damage raids have (defence checks) are tank busters and a few in between high powered attacks. If the auto attacks did hefty amounts of damage (let's say 4k per hit on tank stance, random number but you get the point) when VIT would be good, Parry would be great and the tank stance would be mandatory. And guess what? Defences would actually matter!
The problem isn't the PLD (which apparently is the source of all the game's evil, imbalances, treasonous lalafels and server crashes) or the cooldowns as you are saying. The problem is the current meta tanks are not designed to be a defensive character (ie a tank). They are designed to be a subpar dps with lots of dps and cooldowns to survive tank busters.
And guess what, when you are regulated to dps and you do less dps than the other dps do, then you have a problem. If you want people to stop complaining about tank damage then you need to nerf tank damage (all tank damage) to the ground. Problem solved permanently.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Anyways, say what you will. I sincerely hope you can provide numbers or videos that prove that PLD is broken. Otherwise this thread is a big waste of time.

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Want some videos?
Here you go, on a real raid, with real conditions like enmity generation and optimized gear, on savage 2 where the tanks usually split half the adds (so they get an equal opportunity time as MT) and the PLD is OP because of his superior defences:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooNCi_9VL3Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTIatJfImJY

As matter of fact, do a youtube search for any savage raid with a pld and check their damage compared to the other tank.