On the subject of Esuna:
Are healers just not slotting this anymore? I can't count how many times in Byakko Ex and Fractal HM (just two off the top of my head) where I get hit with paralysis because I either didn't do the lightning mechanic correctly (in Byakko Ex) because I'm not that great at it (100% my fault, I agree), or because I was just a little too far away from the mob that does the lightning donut attack in Fractal (second pack of trash, I think, after the first jump?) and the healers just don't Esuna it. Those are Esunable things, and yet in Byakko, of the 30+ clears I have, I can count on one hand how many runs I've had where healers actually Esuna that; not just off of me I should mention but others as well. I've actually asked for healers in Byakko to slot it, and was told once "it's fine, it doesn't last long." No, maybe not, but it means getting to your stack marker is much harder. Also means interrupted casts and potentially dropping Enochian for BLMs.
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03-13-2018, 12:27 AMKakiko
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03-13-2018, 12:32 AMNephthysVasudanI've only heard one....valid argument for not having esuna - "Some dungeons don't need it"Quote:
Originally Posted by Kakiko
But it comes off as a cop out.
Pro's : Esuna is FAST.....near instant - very short cast time. Esuna is CHEAP....not much mana to burn on it. Esuna is a short term investment that pays off big time as it means healing LESS as a result....or keeping people from getting killed - Like Leviathan hitting you with heavy and the boat tilts (when it can be esuna'd with plenty of time to spare). Been killed thanks to that.
Con: It takes 1 Role slot.
I always keep Esuna within reach - even if I don't use it..I find it's a godsend in my healing tools.
Schollar is the exception to this...I get that....but for crying out loud....people who don't have Esuna slotted...and don't use it? Don't you dare tell me your a "competent healer" - your gambling on my life as DPS/Tank....I don't like that. :P
We should never have to ask for it...seriously...its stupid. It's like DPS not slotting Limit Break....you just don't do that lol.
Heck as a Red Mage I started using Erase on anything that deals damage over time! Because I do not see Esuna being used! UGH. -
03-13-2018, 12:34 AMExKageThere's now even a handy dandy little difference in icons to let us know if it can be!Quote:
Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan
Probably not slotting it because of the avoidable mechanics. Same reason some will move protect out once the run has started.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kakiko
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03-13-2018, 12:50 AMWilhelmWhite
Tfw healers don't Esuna Doom....
https://i.makeagif.com/media/8-28-2015/xgqE9j.gif
Jokes aside, I usually Esuna debuffs as soon as they appear. Even if it's just a burn debuff, I try to get it immediately. -
03-13-2018, 01:00 AMSkivvyI love me some Esuna too. Also, I feel that it should go back to being a normal job skill as it was before. Each healer already had their own version - they could have just made them all attainable at the same level instead of slapping them into the role skills. ._.Quote:
Originally Posted by WilhelmWhite
Also, sorry for continuing the derail! I've been running minimal content this week, so I have no stories. D: -
03-13-2018, 01:29 AMJohnnyDevo
regarding esuna, I'll take it by default for dungeon and pug runs, but it's the first to go in several situations.
1) If my protect macro is interrupted by someone prematurely pulling, protect replaces esuna as the least valuable part of my kit.
2) Other than esuna, every single role action, except break, can be pretty useful. In fact, I've seen high tier healers take break just to deal some damage without mana while solo healing. Because slots are at such a premium and esuna is only useful in some encounters when the party messes up, esuna is often easily replaced. Even rescue can be useful to help a paladin that just got knocked back by double punch keep his uptime.
I do understand why people refuse to take it, but in pug runs I guess I'd say I'd much rather have the "bail out the idiot" button be esuna rather than rescue. -
03-13-2018, 01:34 AMVanilleFang
I don't have Esuna set automatically. I only set it if I know it will be required, otherwise it would be a waste of a slot. WHM already has a low number of spells/abilities, and some of those are already useless (Repose, Fluid Aura) so I want to always make the most out of my Role Actions.
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03-13-2018, 01:35 AMHyoMinParkThere are issues out there with healers not taking Esuna if the fight doesn’t require it for life-threatening debuffs, or if it’s something where you have two healers, then you have both just assuming the other have it, thereby both don’t slot it, and then you end up with an Esuna conundrum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kakiko
Personally, I always take it, but I have forgotten it on occasions after healing something where I took another role action instead (such as Surecast). I was awful when I was learning V4S on my healers for forgetting that I removed Esuna in favor of Surecast, and then forgetting to retake it. :x
Honestly, the best thing SE can do, is make Protect just a passive trait obtained inside of duties, and remove the skill entirely from the game (so that frees up 1 slot), and give each healer their specific Esuna back (can even make SCH’s level 30 instead of level 40). That way you have freed up 2 slots with actions that should not be role actions. As it is right now, there are too many “must have’s” in the healer role actions, and it doesn’t really allow for the “freedom of choice” that role actions are supposed to bring—because you typically want Swiftcast, Lucid Dreaming, Protect, and Esuna in your healer kit, and that only leaves you one other choice for role skills unless you choose to macro-out Protect...but I have seen people get salty if they die and you don’t recast Protect on them immediately afterwards, which you can’t do if you macro it out for another skill, such as Cleric Stance orweaker Divine Seal Largesse“Large Geese”. -
03-13-2018, 01:44 AMVanilleFangCompletely agree about Esuna and Protect. I've stated multiple times that Protect should just go away. I use it at the start of a dungeon and then change it out. I recast it if the tank dies, but otherwise I don't usually bother.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
I always have Swiftcast and Lucid Dreaming like you mentions, and then I like to have Large Geese just for an extra oomph to my heals (read: Regen) so I can DPS a little more. >_> -
03-13-2018, 01:50 AMWilhelmWhite
Lmao "Large Geese". I've been pronouncing it "Lar-guess" for quite a while now, but I can't unhear large geese xD
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03-13-2018, 01:57 AMDriskus
I usually take Esuna if I know its needed or if its my first time in something. If I know I don't need it for sure, I'll swap it for Rescue, Cleric Stance or Surecast depending on the fight. Can't count the number of healers I've seen go into Byakko normal expecting it to not need Esuna only to find out that its probably better to take it halfway through the fight, because people love standing in that lightning.
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03-13-2018, 01:58 AMTridus
I always have Esuna for exactly those reasons. Inevitably I'd either forget I need it until its too late, and I keep running into other healers who don't have it. Easier just to leave it there and be able to rely on it.
The role action system doesn't work that well for healers, TBH. Protect is the most glaring example, but at least you can macro that one away if you don't mind not being able to recast it in combat. -
03-13-2018, 02:08 AMSkivvylol, this reminds me of a V3.0 (NM) run I had earlier in the week. It was really bad, just all around. Lots of unnecessary damage being taken and deaths. I'm thinking a lot of people were newer to the fight, which is fine (really! We all start somewhere).Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
Anyhoo, about 2/3 of the way in, my co-healer decided they'd just go AFK and never return, the party is still going to hell, I'm trying to keep up heals as best I can, MP at this point was hurting, etc. I just finished raising one of the DPS and went back to doing my cures, and a short bit later they ask for Protect in /party chat. To be fair, all the comment literally said was "Protect", so he wasn't being salty or anything, but it made me laugh. In my head, I was just thinking "dude, look at the party, look at my AFK co-heal, look at my MP, ANYTHING - now is NOT the time for me to be worrying about Protect".
Situational awareness is lacking for some :)
And yessss! Please remove protect from our kits. It's practically useless in it's current form. Do other jobs have a "set it and forget it" role ability? (Genuine question). -
03-13-2018, 02:10 AMNephthysVasudanI tend to recast protect when able due to things like this - as it mitigates some damage - but yeah....it gets a bit....iffy - good on you for holding the line. <comfort>Quote:
Originally Posted by Skivvy
And I do set protect - but I hide it in a secondary hotbar.... Esuna however..is always front-and-center. -
03-13-2018, 02:13 AMVanilleFangNo. Protect is the only role action in the game that can be used and then replaced. Not only that but like Tridus mentioned, the role actions aren't really working that well for healers. Other roles have bad Role Actions, sure, but the Healers' list is really bad with having some actions being required and others being utterly useless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skivvy
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03-13-2018, 02:20 AMSkivvyI do try and recast when I can, but that run was just pure chaos. lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan
Yeah, I was incredibly bitter over the healer Role Actions when they first came out. :X With protect, I think they need to either remove it entirely, add the buff automatically while in dungeons (as suggested above), or maybe change it to behave like its PvP counterpart where it's an active skill to be used throughout your run.Quote:
Originally Posted by VanilleFang
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03-13-2018, 03:32 AMHyoMinParkI feel like you can apply this (the “others being utterly useless” part) to Physical Ranged role actions as well, with regards to the X Graze attacks. Outside of Head Graze (Silence)—which is only needed in V3S and V7S so far...and is completely useless if you have a PLD that opts to Silence, or a NIN that saves Jugulate for the silence—anything other than Refresh, Tactician, Invigorate, Palisade, and Second Wind are trash.Quote:
Originally Posted by VanilleFang
Yeah, I guess you can make an argument forPelotonSWIFTSONG in cities or whatnot, but I never take it.
Heavy? No. Bind? Immune. Stun? Well, also immune thanks to the melee skills that still have stuns attached to them (Shoulder Tackle; Spinshatter Dive).
Honestly, SE should make CC more useful...so many things are immune to status effects like Heavy or Sleep that they’re useless to have.
Though, I did do a Tam-Tara one day (Leveling roulette), and there was a baby CNJ that put ranged mobs to sleep so that they wouldn’t have to worry about pulling aggro through healing! I was like !!!!! I remember when sleeping targets at lower levels was a thing... It was adorable. -
03-13-2018, 03:35 AMMoroMurasakiI see what you did there >.>Quote:
Originally Posted by Tridus
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03-13-2018, 03:48 AMSkivvyI think there's a difference between role abilities that are just about useless (all jobs have some) vs. having an ability that is expected to be up 100% of the time, but is a waste of a space to keep slotted.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
With that said, I'm sure all roles could use a second glance at an update. -
03-13-2018, 04:30 AMTridusAnd that's what makes Protect special and weird. It's the only one that in a typical dungeon run you use exactly once and then want to unslot for optimization. Peloton could also kinda fit into that but it's strictly out of combat and will be pressed more frequently (so it's also a decent macro candidate).Quote:
Originally Posted by Skivvy
Esuna is also weird because it's either essential or completely worthless with no real in between. Shirk is only useful for trolling in dungeons but that applies to all dungeons rather than "this specific fight on this specific one..." -
03-13-2018, 04:39 AMHyoMinParkThe sad thing is, is Yoshida wanted to remove Protect with 4.0, but the big wigs insisted on leaving it in there because it’s a “staple” of the FF series as a whole...even though it is the very poster boy for button bloat. If it’s such a staple, then where are Shell and Reflect, because I believe those are also common FF spells, yet they don’t exist in this game...Quote:
Originally Posted by Skivvy
They could; some of the skills in all of the role skills spots I’m like “why is this even a thing”. I already have in mind some suggestions I would make for physical ranged, but, alas, that is a different conversation for a different time in a different thread.Quote:
With that said, I'm sure all roles could use a second glance at an update.
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03-13-2018, 05:02 AMHoodRatI can't speak for reflect but I believe shell was the whm trait that made its protect better than sch's...of course that's been removed a while ago though. Actually, hitting up Google, it looks like shell was an actual ability before ARR.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
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03-13-2018, 07:12 AMEien713
I ran a Leveling roulette today as a healer (mainly for the cluster) and came across THE worst tank I’ve seen during my FF14 career.
So we got Haukke Manor, and the tank was a newbie. Now, I have no problem with first timers, but any player needs to have a minimum level when playing a role/class. The tank in question apparently hasn’t heard of the revolutionary concept of tank cooldowns. He pulled mob after mob without popping a single CD. I was healing like crazy to keep him (and everyone else) alive. He didn’t know how to hold aggro and didn’t seem to know that getting aggro on mobs was his job. He’d only attack 1 target (not once have I seen him use Overpower). He’d also run past mobs, collecting the keys, while the rest of the party got the aggro in his stead. He didn’t avoid AoEs and got hit by almost every single one of them. What’s annoying is that this tank’s info indicated that he understood English (it was the only highlighted language), yet he didn’t seem to understand/react to the explanations we were trying to give him. He remained silent the whole dungeon.
But the one thing that really took the cake was how he was avoiding AoEs at the last boss (perhaps he understood English, after all). Can anyone guess? He was JUMPING in his spot. Yes, JUMPING. I mean, now I can say I’ve seen it all. This made me think this tank was either a master troll or... I’ll let you guys think of the best way to describe him.
Oh, the woes of DF. -
03-13-2018, 07:41 AMVahlnirI admire your patience. Personally, I would have tried to kick them about halfway through the dungeon. Some people have to learn the hard way. If they can't (or won't) respond in chat and essentially hinder or make the group's progress excessively difficult, then they can go do their thing elsewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eien713
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03-13-2018, 08:05 AMLilsephB-boi... .-. Was the only job he had leveled?Quote:
Originally Posted by Eien713
Yeah, Shell was always a defensive buff against magic in the FF series. The original Protect in ARR only increased your physical defense, with the trait "Pro-Shell", it also increased the magical defense in addition to the former. This only in the case of WHMs. PLDs and SCH just got the base Protect that only increased one defensive stat.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoodRat
Reflect is also super iconic to the series, as there are also plenty of fight strategies that resolve around them. Not currently present in the game as it is. I wouldn't work too well on PvE, but I can see its uses in PvP content. -
03-13-2018, 08:23 AMNestamaReflect kind of is, though only as a boss mechanic (Leviathan, T4, Ravana, Calcabrina, Bismarck snakes kind of). An infamous A rank has KO'd many with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilseph
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03-13-2018, 08:40 AMXx-ReiN-xX
got out from o6n as mnk for last day loot (thank god i won), but apparently my dps is terrible and didn't deserved the loot. that tank kept sniping me for having low enmity despite my higher ilvl than the rest of the group. (iwas ilvl 353 and 4th and 5th using diversion on cd). i kept quiet and keep doing what im doing. at the end one member of the group point out diversion and the tank respond with how it's useless because he would never lose aggro. another point out because he's a "sub par shield oath" tank. got some "LOL" as respond from others. now i'm a little concerned tho. maybe he's right about my dps. i picked mnk as main starting 4.1 and never bothered reading a guide. my only dps gauge is SSS dummy. im not a raider but what's you guys do to gauge/improve dps without parser?
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03-13-2018, 08:44 AMLilsephWithout a parser, SSS. People use this website: http://ffxiv.2digitalgames.de/ which is basically a calculator for your DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xx-ReiN-xX
0) Select the encounter and your job.
1) Didn't kill it? Set the HP at the remaining % and the time on 0.
2) Did you kill it? Set the HP on 0 and the remaining seconds you had left.
3) Click on "calculate" and it will show you your DPS.
Yeah, it kind of does, but it doesn't bounce your flare back in your face. :( Although, we can also say that Vengeance from WAR is kind of a damage reflect skill. I think SMN's Ifrit has something like that too?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nestama
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03-13-2018, 08:50 AMXx-ReiN-xXi'll give it go. thanksQuote:
Originally Posted by Lilseph
Edit:so i've picked byakko ex, went to website stated above and got 5277.73 DPS. good?
Edit 2: tried a second time and noticed the Required dps ( in this case Byakko Ex 4691.32 ) still got the same result. guess im over thinking it. :/ -
03-13-2018, 09:20 AMLilsephThe required DPS is the max DPS you need to reach to down the encounter to 0% within the given time. If you have seconds to spare after killing it, it means that your DPS was higher than the minium requirement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xx-ReiN-xX
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03-13-2018, 10:30 AMIlenyaJust as a note, that skill has TERRIBLE scaling, or something else going on, because I had it reflecting 80-ish damage on a crit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilseph
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03-13-2018, 10:50 AMXx-ReiN-xXI gauge for sigmascape normal and got 40 sec to spare and got 5491.91 DPS. So yeah... that tank was just full of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilseph
Thank you. -
03-13-2018, 11:50 AMKhiinroye
So yesterday I went into Dun Scaith on rdm. It was a pretty uneventful run, except for something I saw on the first boss. I didn't want to run all over for the knockbacks and drawins, so I was making use of our good buddy Surecast. And then, on knockback after the second Blizzard 4, while I'm standing well away from the ice block, I pop Surecast again and see floating by on the screen...
Rescue
Missed
I actually didn't know that Surecast blocks Rescue as well. -
03-13-2018, 12:59 PMNestamaMaybe not the animation (it should), but I'm pretty sure it does throw the exact damage back at you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilseph
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03-13-2018, 01:20 PMDaeriion_Aeradiir5277 is pretty decent, considering that you're also not benefitting from extra chakra stacks from party members during brotherhood & raid buffs like Trick attack/AST cards/Chain strategem on a dummy, don't feel too worried about what the tank said, he just fails to take into account how powerful diversion is and why gauging dps based on their enmity rarely works nowadays.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xx-ReiN-xX
and trust me; tanks who love to do dps and stance dance will thank you for using diversion :) -
03-13-2018, 01:54 PMAlarayTo be honest, after everything after this, you're in the right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xx-ReiN-xX
If a tank is claiming "You can do anything and I'll hold aggro" they're a bad tank and are shooting themselves in the foot because, odds are, they're camping tank stance the entire time and using enmity combos like they're going out of style. Which means, they're doing piddly crap for damage contribution and extending the duration of the encounter as a result. (They are, likely, losing around 1k damage per second. That's a LOT). It took me a bit of time to actually realize this, but if someone is going to harp on your damage when they're likely pulling closer to 1000 damage... they can really just stick it where the sun don't shine.
To put it into context, I use one enmity combo in an encounter and I fully expect DPS players to make use of diversion, lucid and the off tank present to provoke and shirk. If there's a Ninja, I expect shadewalker. (I keep my eye on enmity regardless and if I know none are using their enmity dumps, one or two more enmity combos over the course of the encounter tends to be more than plenty not to lose the boss at any point -- and this is without dipping back into a tank stance unless things are hitting the fan and I need to let the healers try to recover things -- I will say it sucks to do enmity combos as a DRK and PLD, it's a big hit to the damage output especially on a Dark Knight, which is why enmity is overall a team concern so that the rDPS can be higher to get through the encounter faster).
The flip side is, as a DPS who pulls less damage than you do, I forget Diversion and I'll get killed for it (but that's my fault, not anyone else's lol).
As an unrelated and on-topic note, I'm not salty or anything about this Kefka (Normal) run I did, but boy, it did feel quite good to be in second damage on the team as a Dark Knight. -
03-13-2018, 02:19 PMjellopyPeople who are underperforming but don’t know it
Decided to dust off my PLD and do a levelling roulette and got Sirensong (lv 61 dungeon).
Got an AST, SMN, and RDM.
Within two pulls I noticed things were dying very slowly. After the first boss I just couldn’t stand it and said nicely, “Maybe you guys should check your tooltips and rotations.” At this point the RDM seemed slightly offended so I keep quiet and go on to 2nd boss where the SMN repeatedly gets 4-5 stacks of vuln from the shadows. I must’ve saved him like 5 times with Intervention.
I do the big pull after that boss and literally ran outta TP so I say something about the dps to which the RDM says, “I know my rotation just fine thank you. Besides I was 2nd on enmity list and my aggro bar was 2/3 full just now.”
To which I respond, “Cuz I was in dps stance to speed things up...”
I honestly tried to help...Hope you guys get better. -
03-13-2018, 02:42 PMVanilleFangRDM AoE rotation is basically just Scatter spam so...Quote:
Originally Posted by jellopy
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03-13-2018, 02:53 PMjellopy
This is lv 61+.... if you’re just spamming scatter for aoe, you might need to go check your tooltips and rotation as well.
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03-13-2018, 03:09 PMNephthysVasudanActually..she's right... Scatter for mobs.....jolt/impact + spell for single targets. Mix in some the melee ranged spells as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by jellopy
Otherwise you run the risk of peeling aggro.
Check your own facts.