What do you guys think is the cause of severe lack of Tank users?

The problem doesn't lie with tank design. If anything tanks need to understand the fight more then anyone in order to appropriately position the boss and use the required cooldowns on the queue or see themselves or someone else go splat, that goes especially in Ultimates. Aggro management is a design that just isn't enjoyable, I did not feel enjoyment when successfully stance dancing or gambling if some dps is going to crit or not.

DPS is much more lenient and the problem lies there, people will at most scoff if a litany or trick attack is out of sync. The dps role is very forgiving in the community and that's where the problem lies as to "why there is a shortage of tanks" and an equal if not more shortage of healers.

An underperforming dps is just that, doing less DPS. And sometimes when you are in that one group as a tank where you are dishing out enough dmg to be competitive with the dps you start to wonder why you don't just swap to a dps and your life will be a lot less stressful when you ask yourself the question, "will there be enough dps to kill the boss".

I'd like to see the developers put more of a strain on the dps with dps exclusive mechanics and then you'll naturally see players trickling to different roles.

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Originally Posted by Mithia

The dps role is very forgiving in the community and that's where the problem lies as to "why there is a shortage of tanks" and an equal if not more shortage of healers.

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Then why is that plenty of people express dissatisfaction with how easy it is to tank and heal now? Why does a lot of these same people say they've switched to or are at least considering switching to DPS jobs? Why am I using my brain way more when trying to hold good rotation on NIN, than I've done to survive, position and dps combined, in previous tier on WAR, GNB and DRK?

The tank role only really seems difficult and unforgiving when you're outside or rather new to it. The way mitigation works right now is incredibly simple and a lot of raiding tanks are getting by with very sub-par cooldown usage(same goes for healers tbh). You say community is more forgiving towards DPS, but majority of people won't bat an eye at tanks who only use Rampart once or twice per fight or don't even know what Reprisal is, while DPS can get kicked for parsing low, as that's very easy to see for anyone interested. People don't usually hold tanks to the same standard when it comes to damage either, let alone looking at their mitigation. As tank, nobody will complain much as long as you don't die(which isn't much of a feat really) and bosses aren't grossly out of position while they teleport themselves half of the time(this tier is certainly better in this regard than the last, but it's still not that great).

It's true that the perceived difficulty holds many people away from the support roles, but it's just as true that said difficulty not actually being there, is what drives people to quit them. You can't change the perception of newbies - tanks, healers and DPS have certain reputations across all mmos and no matter how much you simplify them or add more responsibility to the DPS, that reputation will keep making people pick what they pick. You can however give support roles the depth that will actually keep around the people who are naturally inclined to pick those jobs.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

The sad thing is that for each of those aesthetics / archetypes / fantasies, I can think of an MMO that allows for them as a tank. Kung Fu Master, Kineticist, Sapper, what have you -- in a more diverse vision class design as a whole, there's just so much more that can be done with the tank line-up.

I don't think that's the lead reason are tanks are few here, but damn... a little diversity beyond sword, big axe, big sword, and gunny-sword might be nice.

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I realize this is almost 2 months after and mentions another thread, but I recently put a suggestion for getting 2 jobs for every class, a DPS and a tank or healer. I understand why they haven't so far because of balance issues, but if they give the alt/extra job all new abilities balancing would be easier. One of the 2 classes I think should get tanks, to the 3 which should gets healer, is Pugilist. I was influenced by Snow Villiers from FFXIII who is the character that best represents the Sentinel Role, even though he fights with fists.

I'm also one of the people leery of playing a tank because of stories I've heard from other people, including tanks. One of the friends, character nickname Zweif, mentioned one day at work that he was running a ShB dungeon and people were yelling at him for not knowing the mechanics for the dungeon on his first time in said dungeon. The expansion had only been out a week at that point. The first time I played 14 when 2.0 was released back in 2013 I chose Gladiator as my start. I had never played an MMO so I knew none of the terms or what they meant. I literally chose it because it used a sword and a shield. Since I got back in 2 years ago I've learned more but I'm still leery of trying to do a remake of original character as his original class/job.

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Originally Posted by Mithia

DPS is much more lenient and the problem lies there, people will at most scoff if a litany or trick attack is out of sync. The dps role is very forgiving in the community and that's where the problem lies as to "why there is a shortage of tanks" and an equal if not more shortage of healers.

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Lol, no. Right now Tanks don't die outside of stupidity or healers screwing up. Tanks almost never result in party wide wipes anymore, healers and I would argue DPS have far more responsibility than a tank. Tanks have lost almost all their responsibilities this expansion besides "live" which isn't a responsibility that is specific to them... that's for every player.

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Originally Posted by Satarn

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Enmity only exists because there's a damage output difference between tanks and dps. Why create an engaging system of enmity generation for tanks when you can simply create an engaging system of damage generation for tanks (the latter being what most people are actually asking for, outside of a few like yourself)? Do you know what's more exciting than maximising your fictional damage output? Maximising your actual damage output.

The point where enmity actually matters is on the pick-up. That's actually where the highest risk of a squishy getting smacked around occurs. But the actual test there is knowing where and when the mob spawns, and how to efficiently reposition it. It has nothing to do with balancing out your actual damage output against your mighty power slash combo of fictional damage. Good riddance to that. It's not engaging, clever, or interesting.

I find it strange that you on one hand complain that tanking is too easy because of the enmity changes (which were one of the few things that they got right), and yet you seem to think the idea of tank deaths having more impact is too unforgiving. You can't have it both ways.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Enmity only exists because there's a damage output difference between tanks and dps. Why create an engaging system of enmity generation for tanks when you can simply create an engaging system of damage generation for tanks (the latter being what most people are actually asking for, outside of a few like yourself)? Do you know what's more exciting than maximising your fictional damage output? Maximising your actual damage output.

The point where enmity actually matters is on the pick-up. That's actually where the highest risk of a squishy getting smacked around occurs. But the actual test there is knowing where and when the mob spawns, and how to efficiently reposition it. It has nothing to do with balancing out your actual damage output against your mighty power slash combo of fictional damage. Good riddance to that. It's not engaging, clever, or interesting.

I find it strange that you on one hand complain that tanking is too easy because of the enmity changes (which were one of the few things that they got right), and yet you seem to think the idea of tank deaths having more impact is too unforgiving. You can't have it both ways.

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I'd give it 50/50 on a good day that it's people asking for more complex gameplay.

"Most" people, if you just go by these forums, argue for a damage boost. Been like that since Heavensward and the accessory threads.

When threat matters, it's an engaging limiter, and makes the great tanks extremely desirable. Wanna know why?

Because it's an active inhibitor on your team. The better your tank, the more your team can do. That's why the removal of threat as all but a binary concept is a bad move. Why Threat dumps are not as good as threat suppression for the play by play between tank and team.

The ironic part here is by completely removing threat from the equation, you have also removed quite a few arguments for increasing tank damage in any avenue.

If tanks only gained a 30% threat bonus, then at a minimum they have to be around 75-76% of the potential of a DPS who bring no ability to suppress their threat. A bad tank actively inhibits their party before we even bring boss behavior and positioning into the equation. A great tank allows the team to unload.

Great tanks become desirable and it's obvious when you have relatively great tank - Because then you aren't getting beat in the face. And that's all meaningless if the tank eats !@#%, the tank positions the boss poorly, and whatever other metric you want to use that all compound upon it. The punishing part of being a tank is failing any one of those responsibilities basically invalidates how good you are at the others.

Threat is what makes a tank. The moment it doesn't matter, you're just a DPS in denial.

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Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

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Tanks deal with mechanics like anyone else, Healers have a high responsibility true, and they have the responsibility to push their buttons in a timely manner to counter the damage going out from the boss. Should tanks not mitigate properly they risk going splat if the healer isn't putting in extra legwork. Tanks their job is to make the life of the healer easier so they can cast their glares.

The only responsibility dps has is to dish out enough damage for the boss to die and the tanks and healers help them there. Asides from doing the mechanics there isn't much more responsibility, if a dps or two dies along the way nothing changes unless there is a mechanic that requires them alive.

However tanks make mistakes like anyone else due to "stupidity", should they however die during the dragon phase of Shiva you will quickly see the dps dying one by one. And that isn't the only instance where it can quickly spiral downward when a tank dies. Of course, if we are talking about max item level characters then it's more lenient depending on the content you are doing.

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Originally Posted by Satarn

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I've been tanking for quite a few years, I've seen many iterations or versions of the tank class and the one that FFXIV provides right now is quite good and most importantly easy to roll in to since holding agro isn't an issue and that's what the majority of newcomers tend to be afraid of.

"Plenty of people" is essentially hearsay from your surroundings. Truth is however that when you are under-geared or barely geared for the content, a mistake from a tank will increase the taxation on healers by quite a load. Missing a Divine Veil or another tank cooldown will lead to a casualty or two.

Now when everyone is out gearing the content of course you won't miss a reprisal or the off Rampart, that's the privilege of gear. It makes dps their lives easier as well because now they don't have to try as hard to dish out the same damage as they are supposed to do to kill the boss. Tanks can just survive more! It's in the end a difference of what, 25k health and quite a substantial amount of armor/magic resistance when we compare the previous tier of gear to the current tier.

I know that now I can take 4 stacks at Ramuh and I can still live through it when getting tank bustered by the bird. Was I able to do that in the first week? Nop.

However, if we look out of the raiding scene then any job out there is "easy".

However, the part where you said that you'd kick a dps for performing low but you'd keep a tank purely based on the criteria that he doesn't die is quite the double standard. A tank has his responsibility to dish out damage and position the boss correctly so the dps can have max uptime with a minimum amount of movement. If he can't do either, the party can compensate or adjust but then you are playing with an awful tank. On top of that, they are also responsible for their own dps and to mitigate accordingly so the healers don't have to waste a GCD healing them.

And this is why I believe the current tank iteration is pretty good considering it follows these criteria:
1. They use cooldowns to mitigate damage on themselves and the party
2. They position the boss accordingly so the dps can dish out as much damage as possible without losing uptime
3. They contribute to an actual metric that is accepted by the community

I honestly don't get this "tanks are too easy and boring" thing.
I mained healer for years, I levelled most of the DPS classes, now I got into tanking and I find it waaaay harder.

At least as paladin, I have a long and tight rotation to follow, keep track of aggro, mitigate, position the boss and also do mechanics like everybody else. At least at 80, I find it absolutely overwhelming and I'm not sure I'll ever be able to play it right.
Even monk and ninja seem a joke to me in comparison, you just have to do your rotation and keep track of mechanics, and if you die w/e, you'll just eventually get ressed, so even mechanics you don't even to do so well.

And healing, yes it's responsability and can be stressful if the group utterly sucks, but mostly it's just spamming your 1 single target ability/1 AoE ability and reapplying the long lasting DoT while throwing a heal here and there. If the group is good you have so few to do you'll fall asleep, and unlike tanks you not only don't have a complicated and long dps rotation, you just have none, you just spam the same button until your finger falls. You have to hope for the group to be bad to actually get to do something. Oh right, AST also has cards.

For me it depends...
If I am doing basic content I use tank for quick entry.
If it is savage I will only use tank if we are talking on discord with co-tank. But its not always a option so I go with DPS.

Is it fun? Yes kinda but I still prefer SAM if spot available.

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Originally Posted by Tlamila

I honestly don't get this "tanks are too easy and boring" thing.
I mained healer for years, I levelled most of the DPS classes, now I got into tanking and I find it waaaay harder.

At least as paladin, I have a long and tight rotation to follow, keep track of aggro, mitigate, position the boss and also do mechanics like everybody else. At least at 80, I find it absolutely overwhelming and I'm not sure I'll ever be able to play it right.
Even monk and ninja seem a joke to me in comparison, you just have to do your rotation and keep track of mechanics, and if you die w/e, you'll just eventually get ressed, so even mechanics you don't even to do so well.

And healing, yes it's responsability and can be stressful if the group utterly sucks, but mostly it's just spamming your 1 single target ability/1 AoE ability and reapplying the long lasting DoT while throwing a heal here and there. If the group is good you have so few to do you'll fall asleep, and unlike tanks you not only don't have a complicated and long dps rotation, you just have none, you just spam the same button until your finger falls. You have to hope for the group to be bad to actually get to do something. Oh right, AST also has cards.

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To be fair, PLD is the worst tank for having a long complicated rotation, and having the most and most bitty mitigation skills to keep track of.

If you want to learn to tank, I'd start with WAR or GNB, both have a much more straightforward rotation (I wouldn't call GNB's "simple" exactly but it's intuitive, where PLD's isn't at all) and both have much simpler mitigation tools.

Really, playing as a GNB, it just feels like playing the DPS that goes first, with a few extra mitigation utility skills to use.