Please no more Eureka!

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Originally Posted by Leanna

Delusion at its finest :)

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At least, I remember that we received two ultimates, two additionnal trials, and maybe two more in april...oh, and a new job.
But hey, counting that would only weakens your...well...only point, so, I understand why you'd rather not mention them.

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Originally Posted by swiss_Momo

on a side note: you DO realize that the quote you're showing off in your signature means absolutely nothing in regards to your "Eureka was always meant to be niche content" claim, do you? It's from an interview done at NA FanFest, so a few weeks AFTER Pyros was released. At that point it's nothing more than meaningless PR talk.

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Oh crap, you're right, it's after NA FanFest...2016
Come on now...

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

At least, I remember that we received two ultimates, two additionnal trials, and maybe two more in april...oh, and a new job.
But hey, counting that would only weakens your...well...only point, so, I understand why you'd rather not mention them.

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Two Ultimates for the 1% of the player base, two additional trials because they had to and a job they admitted didn't drain any resource and was done in free time.

Meanwhile nothing else, just four huge maps filled with random sponge mobs and Fates.

If the participation % is from people who got to max level at each area, no one can claim this is more successful than any past relic, because as said earlier, a lot of people did only level to gamble with the lootboxes to get the new furniture, hairs and emotes.

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Originally Posted by Leanna

Two Ultimates for the 1% of the player base

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Irrelevant in regards to the ressource cost, thank you

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Originally Posted by Leanna

two additional trials because they had to

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What ? They had to ? Based on what ?

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Originally Posted by Leanna

and a job they admitted didn't drain any resource and was done in free time.

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Source ?

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Originally Posted by Leanna

If the participation % is from people who got to max level at each area, no one can claim this is more successful than any past relic, because as said earlier, a lot of people did only level to gamble with the lootboxes to get the new furniture, hairs and emotes.

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Good thing I said nothing about how successful Eureka seems to be in the eye of anyone who post it, wether they like it or not.

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Originally Posted by Leanna

Savage still doesn't stop SE from making other content, Savage is basic content, and all the resources to make something "new" went to Eureka in SB.

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Dungeons did, though.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

I really hope you simply forgot that capped tome gear is anything but mandatory to access endgame casual content, or else you just said that gear wasn't a reward, and then you have a much deeper problem since it's the only thing this game has to make your character evolve.

Again, that's false. Obtaining a full capped tome gear set will take much more subscription time than that, even before considering stuffing multiple jobs. And weekly cap is something made for casual, because it prevents them from falling too far behind.

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Firstly,why do you keep shifting this discussion towards gearing? The main thrust of my argument in previous posts and this one is that, there is no recent 'casual' endgame content with the same scale/depth as Eureka in terms of engagement..

But for the sake of keeping this discussion coherent, tomestones should not be considered a reward, when your alternatives to gearing are buying gear (NPC/Crafted) or drops (dungeons,raids) at the casual level. If we are really being pedantic, maybe even stuff like Centurio seals.

Because if you want to use gearing as a factor for determining longevity/engagement of content, you're implying that people would stop doing Eureka, once they have their relics.

We both know this is not the case, as people still go into Eureka for rewards like glams,mounts,minions,etc.

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No, you're not understanding the concept of casual.

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We can go back and forth on this but these 2 would be considered the most common definitions of being a casual player:

1. In terms of skill. In FFXIV's case, I consider anyone who does not do current tier Extreme Primals/Savage Raids as casuals in terms of skill.

2. In terms of daily/weekly playtime.

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You ask for a content that requires the same dedication from players that, by definition, don't give the game that dedication.If that's the kind of content you want, you're not a casual, you're simply someone who doesn't like Eureka.

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I think most people will agree that as someone who does not do current tier Ex Primals/Savage raids, I'm a 'casual' in terms of skill.

You seem to be asserting that in order to be 'casual',you've to fit both definitions.

I'm a casual who does not like Eureka.

What dedication do the recent additions to casual content, require in terms of skill/playtime?

Less than 5 mins for doing Doman Enclave?

15 mins for doing Namazu quests daily?

30 mins for Custom Deliveries,weekly?

An hour or 2 for doing Hildebrand quests?

A few hours for doing Ivalice Raids in one play session?

A few hours for HOH?

Party games suite, Doman Mahjong Edition?

As, a casual, I'm asking for content which keeps me engaged for longer than a month.

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Originally Posted by TwistedTea

Firstly,why do you keep shifting this discussion towards gearing?

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Because gear is the main reward of the vast majority of battle content.

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Originally Posted by TwistedTea

The main thrust of my argument in previous posts and this one is that, there is no recent 'casual' endgame content with the same scale/depth as Eureka in terms of engagement..

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Again, what separates casuals from non-casual is "engagement". So asking for casual content with the same engagement is kind of backwards.

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Originally Posted by TwistedTea

But for the sake of keeping this discussion coherent, tomestones should not be considered a reward, when your alternatives to gearing are buying gear (NPC/Crafted) or drops (dungeons,raids) at the casual level. If we are really being pedantic, maybe even stuff like Centurio seals.

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Sorry, but for me, it's not coherent to consider capped tome gear not an endgame level reward just because it exists weaker gear, especially since it's complete bonus for anything casual.

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Originally Posted by TwistedTea

Because if you want to use gearing as a factor for determining longevity/engagement of content, you're implying that people would stop doing Eureka, once they have their relics.

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Completely stop, no, but if they finish the relics for all their jobs, most people will probably spend far less time in Eureka than they do now. And if the Relic wasn't there, there would definitely be less people playing there.

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Originally Posted by TwistedTea

You seem to be asserting that in order to be 'casual',you've to fit both definitions.

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Yes, if you play three hours each day, you're not a 'casual', even if you don't raid. That's why I separated non-casual as "raiders" and "grinders". Skill is not the only type of engagement, and Eureka is targetted at the other one, i.e, people who can spend longs stretches of playtime frequently. I've stopped raiding months ago and since I don't care that much about mounts, I've barely done EX Primals, but I'm definitely not a casual in regards to playtime, because I can easily do a full Eureka session each night.

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Originally Posted by TwistedTea

As, a casual, I'm asking for content which keeps me engaged for longer than a month.

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Problem is, if you discount gear as a reward, no content in this game would keep most people engaged longer than a month. And the content you ask for would still need to have gear as rewards, even if it has additionnal reward. But the way it would rewards would likely not be very different than gathering tomestones, if it wants to stay not-too-casual-unfriendly, and thus it would be redundant with dungeons and trials. If capped tome gear would disappear, then you would have room for gear from another content. IMO, it would be better for the game, because it still doesn't make much sense for me to obtain that powerful gear content so undemanding.

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Originally Posted by Leanna

Two Ultimates for the 1% of the player base, two additional trials because they had to and a job they admitted didn't drain any resource and was done in free time.

Meanwhile nothing else, just four huge maps filled with random sponge mobs and Fates.

If the participation % is from people who got to max level at each area, no one can claim this is more successful than any past relic, because as said earlier, a lot of people did only level to gamble with the lootboxes to get the new furniture, hairs and emotes.

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I think you're mixing up blue mage and mahjong. Yoshi never said blue mage was done on people's free time. That was doman mahjong.

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Originally Posted by TwistedTea

As, a casual, I'm asking for content which keeps me engaged for longer than a month.

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You got that content, its called Eureka, you just don´t like it, thats not SE´s problem!

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Yes, if you play three hours each day, you're not a 'casual', even if you don't raid.

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A year ago, I suggested something, like what you've stated above and the majority of people on these forums disagreed with me saying, that if a person has only 2-4 hours daily, that's below 'casual and that an MMO is not for that person.

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Problem is, if you discount gear as a reward, no content in this game would keep most people engaged longer than a month...

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So you're saying that without the relic, Eureka,with it's multiple zones,new battle systems,varied rewards, would not be able to keep people engaged for longer than a month?

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Originally Posted by Laphael

You got that content, its called Eureka, you just don´t like it, thats not SE´s problem!

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According to Reynhart and his signature,Eureka was not designed to be casual content:

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I usually compare FFXIV with a theme park, but the Forbidden Land of Eureka won’t be a place where everyone would want to go. For example, there are people who don’t want to go to horror houses because they don’t see the point in getting scared on purpose. For example, on a date, the boyfriend might want to invite the girlfriend to go the horror house, but the girlfriend just doesn’t seem to find it fun. In other words, it’s not like everyone wants to go to the horror house, but there are people who just love the adrenalin rush they get from it. Think of Eureka as something like that.

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Also,if Eureka is meant to be casual content, it's SE's problem when content that took 17-18 months(iirc) to develop, has these kind of numbers according to the Lucky Bancho 2019 census:

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and the number of active players that have reached the Pyros level cap of 50 is:
18,6% JP
5,8% NA
7,3% EU

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Of course, there are people who will point out that Eureka is more successful than previous relics:

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And in NA it's 8.58% for a content that's out more than two years and 5.8% for Pyros.

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Which does not take into account that Eureka is not just about the relic. Or that the rewards, Eureka offers might have something to do with that 5.8%

Putting Eureka's numbers aside, people will also point to niche content like Savage raids/PVP.

From a utilitarian perspective, it would make more sense for SE to develop engaging content with depth for the casual playerbase, which is the bigger audience rather than the shallow puddles of endgame 'casual' content that we have now.

Of course, such reasoning will not fly in a themepark MMO.

But if SE can devote considerable resources to producing engaging niche content while not also providing similar casual endgame content, then of course, you'll have people like me providing feedback.