Why not abolish the Class system entirely in favor of Jobs? [@ Devs]

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Originally Posted by NadienKirisame

Not complicated at all unless you are trying to make it that way... Also abilities are changing in ARR and you can already see it in the video where the CNJ has a water attack spell... They have also said all class/jobs are being reworked and mnk is getting some big changes...

I would say the class > job system is fine and they can always add more abilities to the jobs since it is not based on level but on quests. Also there are a lot of weapons/items that can be used to make more classes so I don't think we need to have 2 jobs to each class or more... I will also point out that I don't think that is how they are looking at it either since in an old interview Yoshi mentioned taking daggers out of the sword grouping to give to a scout class that would have the job ninja... so I think they are looking at more classes with a job coming from each class.

The cat is bemused =-.-=

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That's exactly what I said. However, people kept using that as a reason as to why they loved the classes. It made no sense. I clearly stated the class system can stay exactly the way it is if we just accept the fact that it's always going to be class > job > whatever they add in the future. Some people just think it's a waste of time. Hey that's their opinion. The branching system doesn't work. No Gladiator > PaladinDark/Knight nonsense.

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Originally Posted by Kiote

This thread is so full of false problems, it's Ridiculous.. The most Glaring being, "You have to make a new Class every time you want to make a new Job"

You do realize that, even if you remove classes, you still have to create the first Half of the Job..

Classes are designed for people who want to Experiment and Modify their Character to play the way they want too. Jobs are designed to specialize players in to party roles so you don't get stuck with a Whm that can't heal or a Tank that thinks they are a DD.

Every single "problem" you people have mentioned in this thread would be better solved by making Jobs more specialized and Classes more customizable.

Removing Classes will do exactly nothing to help this game. Having them, if nothing else, will make Solo play and PvP significantly more Diverse and Fun.

Please Stop Trying To Remove Things From The Game That People Like. Let This Thread Die.

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That's why some people said an overhaul would be best. However they implement it, I'm looking forward with great interest.

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Originally Posted by Kiote

This thread is so full of false problems, it's Ridiculous.. The most Glaring being, "You have to make a new Class every time you want to make a new Job"

You do realize that, even if you remove classes, you still have to create the first Half of the Job..

Classes are designed for people who want to Experiment and Modify their Character to play the way they want too. Jobs are designed to specialize players in to party roles so you don't get stuck with a Whm that can't heal or a Tank that thinks they are a DD.

Every single "problem" you people have mentioned in this thread would be better solved by making Jobs more specialized and Classes more customizable.

Removing Classes will do exactly nothing to help this game. Having them, if nothing else, will make Solo play and PvP significantly more Diverse and Fun.

Please Stop Trying To Remove Things From The Game That People Like. Let This Thread Die.

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I dont disagree with the bottom thats what I want pushed as well.

But with the top I'd say its true of a problem. When you want to make a job unique and not a copy pasta of two other classes (say you want red mage but the current classes don't cut it) you make a new class so red mage feels how it should (1:1 job:class). But now you made a class that blends into the other classes of solo play you cant just "make a job" (if you blend too much balancing will become a nightmare as every time you add a class so many different op combinations appear on accident). So either you have to make the job and a new class with a scary 1:1 ratio or just make each class turn into two separate jobs (which also has problems- famous example here is gld -> pld / drk).


As some others have pointed out you can turn the system asymmetric - I dont prefer it.. (symmetry is pretty imo) but it can work.

No "Job" makes sense in a 2 Jobs to 1 Class ratio. One of the two jobs are going to suffer. If someone can tell me how "Ninja" as a job can work with the 1 Class / 2 Job ratio, I'd love to hear it. The solution here is that Ninja goes the way like Summoner does. Arcanist -> Summoner || Scout -> Ninja. A new class must be created to accommodate a new job. Each class has a set list of abilities and passive traits. Lets say for the sake of a new example, lets conjure up another class. Say for instance "Beastmaster" was one of the unfortunate jobs to get paired with another job with a route class. What can it stem from ? One can say "Arcanist", as it is the closest pet class we have to a "pet class".

Arcanist's build as stated is focused mainly on Damage Over Time spells, Summonable Spirit Essences, and Debuffs. Its native ability and traits are no doubt going to tailor the Arcanist to better enhance Summoner, the attached job. From this, we can assume that for spells and abilities, it's going to have spells like Rasp or Choke, most likely some abilities to enhance these spells, as well as passive traits to enhance MP pool and/or MP Refresh and so on (keep in mind, this is just an example scenario to put it out there). And of course, we can't forget Carbuncle and its different variants of Tank or Healer, or whatever types it can switch to. Now, we can do a quest to Unlock "Beastmaster" instead of "Summoner" as a job. Since the Job only brings to the table 5 unique abilities, the remaining abilities will be filled in by the route class spells, abilities, and traits. I can't imagine how Beastmaster would have a use for DoT spells, Debuffs, or any Passive Traits that are meant for a mage type class. Even if Beastmaster was given more than 5 abilities, it's still stuck with those route class abilities and spells. And why would you want to come Beastmaster with DoTs, Debuffs, and gimped Carby if Arcanist and Summoner can do the same thing you can, but better ? since you know... they're actually mages ?

The end result is that you have a "Job" that's broken because it lacks the necessary Abilities and Traits to support it. Beastmaster or any other Job will never feel like a complete, up to par job. They will have too many needed components missing to stand up to more solid Classes. I can only think a 1:1 ratio on Class and Jobs is the only way to maintain the necessary balance between Class and Job and to support the jobs relevance. But then we run into the problem that Shougun states. If removing the Class system creates too much of an impact on lore, game mechanics, and development progress in A Realm Reborn, then what choice do we have but to keep it in there ? But it doesn't change the fact that there are flaws too great to ignore. Square is gonna do what its gotta do. But I hope we can receive a little more information on the direction they're going to take things.

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Originally Posted by Kiote

Removing Classes will do exactly nothing to help this game. Having them, if nothing else, will make Solo play and PvP significantly more Diverse and Fun.

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This is highly subjective, as far as I can see there is no way to keep the class system in the game without hamstringing developers creating content for jobs.

All the jobs need to be tied to a class so if a job idea comes up that has no class, it's a massive investment to make a new class and make sure it balances with all the current class skills (Much more work than making a job individual of itself and has all of it's skills self contained within that job) It's a issue they struggled with in XI with sub-jobs they often moved the level of certain abillities around to make sure they were outside the max level range (37) as to not make that job itself underpowered compared to jobs who could sub those abillities to a even greater benifit than the original class.

now imagine that but with every single skill that every single class has.

Wether you think the removal/tweaking of the class system would help/harm the game doesn't make it a fact. Many think the Class system is a hinderance and you can't deny those people the right to that opinion or the abillity to speak their minds about it.

So please stop trying to remove discussion from this forum. Wether people "Like" the class system isn't up for debate, the actual usefullness of it is though, so let us discuss the topic at hand.

I see a lot of peeps talking about 1 Class = 1 Job but that is not really the case. While it is true there is currently 1 Base Class per Job, it really is 2 Classes = 1 Job.

Here is a little reminder of which Classes lead to which Jobs and the Class Abilities each Job can use:

Paladin Requirements: Level 30 gladiator and level 15 conjurer.
+ Marauder and Conjurer Abilities.

Monk Requirements: Level 30 pugilist and level 15 lancer
+ Lancer and Archer Abilities.

Warrior Requirements: Level 30 marauder and level 15 gladiator
+ Gladiator and Pugilist Abilities.

Dragoon Requirements: Level 30 lancer and level 15 pugilist
+ Pugilist and Archer Abilities.

Bard Requirements: Level 30 archer and level 15 conjurer
+ Conjurer and Thaumaturge Abilities.

White Mage Requirements: Level 30 conjurer and level 15 gladiator
+ Gladiator and Pugilist Abilities.

Black Mage Requirements: Level 30 thaumaturge and level 15 pugilist
+ Pugilist and Archer Abilities.

Summoner Requirements: Level 30 Arcanist and ???
+ ??? and ??? Abilities.

My point in posting this is to remind everyone that Yoshi & Devs can mix n' match to create whatever Jobs they want to and the addition of the Arcanist Class gives them even more possibilities. They could (and just might) include Existing Jobs into the mix n' match for Future Jobs.

Before they created Jobs, I was not a fan of the Armoury System but now I see the ingenuity of it. Just by adding 1 New Class per expansion, they can add several New Jobs with all the possible combinations. Even if they do not add any New Classes in the future, they can still just use Job + Class as a base.

Also please keep in mind that Yoshi said All CLasses & Jobs have been tweaked, so I am guessing they are rebalancing the Abilities and retooling which ones are Cross-Class and Cross-Job most likely with future Jobs in mind.

(edit: one more thing)

Also keep in mind that Weapons do not determine the Job...Job Stones determine the Job, so they can add any Job Specific weapons they want to, ie. Rapiers, GreatSwords, Scythes, Spathas, Katanas, etc.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

This is highly subjective, as far as I can see there is no way to keep the class system in the game without hamstringing developers creating content for jobs.

All the jobs need to be tied to a class so if a job idea comes up that has no class, it's a massive investment to make a new class and make sure it balances with all the current class skills (Much more work than making a job individual of itself and has all of it's skills self contained within that job) It's a issue they struggled with in XI with sub-jobs they often moved the level of certain abillities around to make sure they were outside the max level range (37) as to not make that job itself underpowered compared to jobs who could sub those abillities to a even greater benifit than the original class.

now imagine that but with every single skill that every single class has.

Wether you think the removal/tweaking of the class system would help/harm the game doesn't make it a fact. Many think the Class system is a hinderance and you can't deny those people the right to that opinion or the abillity to speak their minds about it.

So please stop trying to remove discussion from this forum. Wether people "Like" the class system isn't up for debate, the actual usefullness of it is though, so let us discuss the topic at hand.

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It's starting to look like they're ignoring what was brought up on purpose. I personally loved the class system because of the obvious. I remember using Riot Blade on my archer :). They've long since restricted us from using certain abilities on other classes though, so I'm not sure what we're trying to hold on here. The days when we were allowed to use any ability we wanted are long gone. Emulate on Gladiator anyone? :) In order to preserve that balance they're going to have to do extra work like you said and forbid some classes from using abilities that would seem too good.

I only bothered commenting because I was hoping someone would say something that didn't sound like, "go back to ffxi, I love classes" etc. It's the whole reason for me to speak up anyway. Show me what I'm missing so I can adjust my point of view on this.

It's still recycling spells, abilities, traits, and weaponskills. It's like like saying Ken and Ryu from Street Fighter are different, or Fox and Falco from Smash Bros. are different, when fundamentally. They're not.

I started one of these threads like 2 weeks ago and I still think the classes should just upgrade to jobs. The maintanence of the classes is just silly in my opinion. It makes it so they can say there is "16 playable classes" when it reality it is only 8.

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Originally Posted by GodseijuroHiko

It's starting to look like they're ignoring what was brought up on purpose. I personally loved the class system because of the obvious. I remember using Riot Blade on my archer :). They've long since restricted us from using certain abilities on other classes though, so I'm not sure what we're trying to hold on here. The days when we were allowed to use any ability we wanted are long gone. Emulate on Gladiator anyone? :) In order to preserve that balance they're going to have to do extra work like you said and forbid some classes from using abilities that would seem too good.

I only bothered commenting because I was hoping someone would say something that didn't sound like, "go back to ffxi, I love classes" etc. It's the whole reason for me to speak up anyway. Show me what I'm missing so I can adjust my point of view on this.

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The guilds being centered around classes, with their respective jobs being quests involving other entities, in short, they are building lore around the armory system, and its removal would involve retconning whole swaths of story and render many achievements unattainable. You would still have rebalancing issues with or without classes, as they never truly escape the three mainstays of the mmorpg, tank, healer, dd. I would prefer they innovate a little with signature weapons rather than stick with each job eventually being hamstrung by a specific weapon with good stats that looks nothing like what they'd wield in their profession, just to be efficient in a party.