Consolidated White Mage 4.0 Feedback Thread

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06-22-2019, 05:52 AM
Ftail

Quote:

Originally Posted by Semirhage

That's part of the equation, but I think efficiency also deserves a mention. Another major reason why WHM's higher potential HPS is not a real advantage is the lopsided concentration of kit efficiency. To simplify a bit, off-GCD abilities are "better" than GCDs. They're instant, free (or marginally priced), and allow the user to continue uninterrupted. Healing-wise, the more powerful part of SCH's kit is the "good" half, and the more powerful part of WHM's kit is the "bad" half, i.e. the less efficient heals you want to rely on last.

Agreed. To add onto that the oGCD healing allows for higher DPS. Which explains why WHM wins on the target dummy parser, but loses to everyone in actual boss fights. Those lost DPS spells spent on healing GCD, just can't compete with being able to weave DPS into your heals.
06-22-2019, 05:54 AM
HyoMinPark

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ftail

I'm not going to speak for AST, but at least for SCH it has a lower HPS than WHM and that's a fact. The fact that WHM's extra HPS is not needed and SCH can get through all the savage tier raids having lower HPS, doesn't mean the WHM HPS advantage doesn't exist. Even if that advantage is completely useless. Also a food for thought, they brought up SCH's lack of HPS on the live-letter and said they would fix it. Even though I've never seen a fellow SCH complain about having lower HPS. WTF Square?

I agree with everything you've said, so the reason I quoted a couple sentences was to nitpick a single point. Even if that point isn't very important to the overall picture.

They said that SCH had a “lack of healing tools” compared to the other two healers, which I disagreed with, personally. Indomitability is probably one of the most overpowered oGCD heals between any of the three healers—especially after its potency was buffed in 4.0—and it comes at very little cost to the SCH to use it. I’d say its probably up there with AST’s Earthly Star, if not slightly better because of the shorter CD. Now, 5.0 SCH seems to be having issues with overhealing just to dump Aetherflow and not overcap on it, which is not good. Not to mention the new Sacred Soil is completely busted and craps all over the remnants of AST’s CU. So they’ve now gone too far in the other direction.

WHM’s “burst healing” is not a valued utility because this game does not call for it. An advantage is not an advantage if it is not useful. The other two can heal just as well as a WHM can, which was my point. The individual I was responding to was acting as if this was not the case—and this is not the first time I have seen such a mindset.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ftail

Agreed. To add onto that the oGCD healing allows for higher DPS. Which explains why WHM wins on the target dummy parser, but loses to everyone in actual boss fights. Those lost DPS spells spent on healing GCD, just can't compete with being able to weave DPS into your heals.

It also does not help that WHM suffers a lot from it’s lack of mobility compared to the other two healers. The increase in movement in Alphascape only helped AST beat WHM into the ground as the prog healer—this was in addition to the 1.5s cast time they got in 4.3 and the instant application of things like CU in 4.4. WHM also cannot effectively weave what oGCD heals it has without clipping its Stone IVs, which is another advantage both AST and SCH have over it.

EDIT because Daily Post limit again:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ftail

Now you are nitpicking the definition of a word instead of admitting you made a mistake.

I’m only repeating what you said. You were the one who called the advantage useless. How can it be an advantage if it is useless? No need to sound so hostile.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ftail

I'm not going to speak for AST, but at least for SCH it has a lower HPS than WHM and that's a fact. The fact that WHM's extra HPS is not needed and SCH can get through all the savage tier raids having lower HPS, doesn't mean the WHM HPS advantage doesn't exist. Even if that advantage is completely useless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ftail

SCH does not have the same HPS as a WHM. Period.

You were also the one who replied to me just to nitpick a single statement, so I don’t think you can really have a leg to stand on by saying I’m “nitpicking” a definition. It’s not a nitpick—it’s a simple statement of fact. How can an advantage be an advantage when it is labeled useless? That’s the exact opposite of what an advantage is.

SCHs can heal just fine, and can easily keep up with the healing a WHM would need to do in relevant content. WHM’s healing is not an advantage, which was the premise set forth in the post I replied to. Again, no need to sound so hostile. It’s almost as if you’re looking to have an argument right now, and I’m not particularly interested. Thank you, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ftail

Also I agree with everything you've stated except for this, i just wanted to point this out. You people have a nice day gunna log onto FFXIV before the moogle event ends!

Still seems to me that you were just looking for an argument given your tone in this post. Not going to lie.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ftail

My intent was not to sound hostile, I apologize if I offended you.

You’re mistaken to think I’m offended. Replying to arguments with counter arguments =/= offended. It’s called discourse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ftail

However if you look above I said I made a mistake. I didn't want to get into an argument about semantics. Please drop it.

I corrected a single mistake you made, I'm sorry you took offense to being corrected. I hope you can forgive me.

You can also just stop replying, but you were the one who started this conversation. And you continue to reply to it now. That said, considering you have already resulting to condescension and sarcasm, I don’t think we can continue to have any sort of conversation that is meaningful.

For the record, I looked at HPS percentiles for the Ultimates on Everyone’s Favorite Website, which would probably be the best test of healing that this game currently offers. SCH is not behind WHM by any significant margin—at a lot of the percentiles, they are fairly close to one another. AST is actually below SCH.
06-22-2019, 06:00 AM
Ftail

Quote:

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

An advantage is not an advantage if it is not useful.

Now you are nitpicking the definition of a word instead of admitting you made a mistake. I made a mistake by calling it an advantage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Uh, Astrologian and Scholar are also healers and can output just as much HPS as White Mage can.

SCH does not have the same HPS as a WHM. Period.

Also I agree with everything you've stated except for this, i just wanted to point this out. You people have a nice day gunna log onto FFXIV before the moogle event ends!
06-22-2019, 06:15 AM
Ftail

Quote:

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I’m only repeating what you said. You were the one who called the advantage useless. How can it be an advantage if it is useless? No need to sound so hostile.

My intent was not to sound hostile, I apologize if I offended you. However you are purposely ignoring the point of my post to nitpick a definition. How can it be an advantage if it's useless? It might be useless for organized high end raiding where people don't make mistakes. But there are clearly other situations where having a higher HPS on demand and not on a timer would be useful. Just because it's useless in one situation doesn't mean it won't be useful in the next.

However if you look above I said I made a mistake. I didn't want to get into an argument about semantics. Please drop it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Still seems to me that you were just looking for an argument given your tone in this post. Not going to lie.

I corrected a single mistake you made. If that's looking for an argument, you might need to just sit back and relax for a moment.

Again, I never meant to offend you and I hope the rest of your day is nice Hyo.
06-22-2019, 06:34 AM
ForteNightshade

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ftail

Now you are nitpicking the definition of a word instead of admitting you made a mistake. I made a mistake by calling it an advantage.

SCH does not have the same HPS as a WHM. Period.

Also I agree with everything you've stated except for this, i just wanted to point this out. You people have a nice day gunna log onto FFXIV before the moogle event ends!

Um. How is it a nitpick when you called something an advantage when it clearly isn't? That's simply you being incorrect and now backpedaling.

Regardless, a certain site barred by fight club rules would like a word with you about HPS. The difference between Scholar and White Mage is minimal. Furthermore, you have to consider shields which are not calculated in that equation. Making the discrepancy even less. White Mage does have an advantage but it isn't HPS so much as MP. It can sustain itself much longer, thus make up for mistakes easier. If you need to raise a lot, Scholar and Astro will struggle whereas White Mage won't. That's the one advantage it does over the other two healers. When it comes to actual healing, they're all fairly even. What brings White Mage is it woefully poor mobility and complete lack of utility.
06-22-2019, 06:41 AM
Ftail

Quote:

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

You can also just stop replying, but you were the one who started this conversation. And you continue to reply to it now. That said, considering you have already resulting to condescension and sarcasm, I don’t think we can continue to have any sort of conversation that is meaningful.

Anything I say to you obviously upsets you, why? I have not taken a condescending tone with you and if I have I apologize because I'm not aware of it. My apologies to you are not sarcasm, I want to have a friendly relations with you on this forum. Why is stating that SCH HPS ≠ WHM HPS and correcting you upset you so much? People make mistakes it happens to all of us.

When I look at your replies, they look so incredibly hostile I feel obligated to reply to try and dampen hostilities, not further inflame them. I now see that, my efforts were in vain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

For the record, I looked at HPS percentiles for the Ultimates on Everyone’s Favorite Website, which would probably be the best test of healing that this game currently offers. SCH is not behind WHM by any significant margin—at a lot of the percentiles, they are fairly close to one another. AST is actually below SCH.

When you do Ultimate you want to push out as little HPS as possible while keeping the group alive. Those aren't indicative of maximum HPS.
06-22-2019, 06:44 AM
MintnHoney

So, what everyone's trying to say, is that WHM has advantages, but the advantages are situational.

The good news is, the MP advantage will become much more prominent with the advent of ShB, I guess?
06-22-2019, 06:52 AM
Ftail

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Um. How is it a nitpick when you called something an advantage when it clearly isn't? That's simply you being incorrect and now backpedaling.

Read my previous posts please. I don't want to repeat myself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Regardless, a certain site barred by fight club rules would like a word with you about HPS. The difference between Scholar and White Mage is minimal. Furthermore, you have to consider shields which are not calculated in that equation. Making the discrepancy even less. White Mage does have an advantage but it isn't HPS so much as MP. It can sustain itself much longer, thus make up for mistakes easier. If you need to raise a lot, Scholar and Astro will struggle whereas White Mage won't. That's the one advantage it does over the other two healers. When it comes to actual healing, they're all fairly even. What brings White Mage is it woefully poor mobility and complete lack of utility.

I disagree that the difference between SCH and WHM is minimal. I would say that SCH HPS is good enough to do anything and WHM extra HPS is unneeded. You also need to take into account that shields don't stack, whereas pure healing will always increase the HP bar if low and isn't limited like a shield is.

If you want to believe WHM = SCH for HPS go ahead, I've stated my piece. Feel free to disagree with me.
06-22-2019, 06:52 AM
Ftail

Quote:

Originally Posted by MintnHoney

So, what everyone's trying to say, is that WHM has advantages, but the advantages are situational.

That's what I was trying to say at least for HPS. Although the advantage is basically useless because those situations are incredibly rare.
06-22-2019, 07:03 AM
HyoMinPark

Oh, I got a post back. Last one on this topic for the day, though. Need to finish 4.5 on my alt in prep for the expac.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ftail

Anything I say to you obviously upsets you, why? I do have not taken a condescending tone with you and if I have I apologize because I'm not aware of it. My apologies to you are not sarcasm, I want to have a friendly relations with you on this forum. Why is stating that SCH HPS ≠ WHM HPS and correcting you upset you so much? People make mistakes it happens to all of us.

Your mistake is assuming that I am upset—why is that? Because I replied and rebutted your statements? That’s called discourse, and comments such as “I’m sorry that I have offended you”, “I’m sorry you feel offended at being corrected” and “I hope that you can forgive me” (which you have subsequently edited to sound less condescending and snippy) are what give me the impression of hostile, sarcastic, and condescending.

I do not believe that I made a mistake, and stand firmly behind my declaration that SCH can do just as much healing as a WHM can in any content that matters. Looking at the numbers is enough to show that. Unfortunately, it’s not entirely safe to link them here, but feel free to check them out.

As ForteNightshade said, WHM’s real advantage lies in MP and sustain. Other than that, it’s healing is not a real advantage over the other two, who can both handle just as much healing with more efficient resources (e.g., Earthly Star and Indom).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ftail

When I look at your replies, they look so incredibly hostile I feel obligated to reply to try and dampen hostilities not further inflame them. I see now that, my efforts were in vain.

Pardon, but how is proving counters to your arguments hostile? Your tone in your subsequent responses to me sounds far more hostile than anything I have said to you thus far. There’s no need to dampen anything, because the hostilities are not coming from me. I’m actually quite calm.

However, I do not think that you and I can continue to have any further meaningful discussion with regards to this topic, which is why this post will be my last (that, and because this forum’s posting limit).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ftail

When you do Ultimate you want to push out as little HPS as possible while keeping the group alive. Those aren't indicative of maximum HPS.

Maximum HPS? The “maximum HPS” one needs is enough to ensure the party survives. Anything more is overhealing and a waste of resources better spent elsewhere (which would be damage). You almost sound like you’re treating “maximum HPS” the same as “maximum DPS”—they are not the same when it comes to optimization. All healers can push out the necessary amounts of healing for any content—SCH is not any further behind WHM in the Ultimates. Even the differences in non-Echo Final Omega are not that large between the three, and that’s probably the most heal-intensive fight of this tier.

Ultimates are the better option for measuring the kind of healing healers can do because it’s the only content that calls for more than 20% healing uptime, and it’s the only content (outside of perhaps fourth floor Savage fights) that actually give healers challenges when it comes to healing. That said, they are still wanting even in that regard.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ftail

That's minimum HPS, what's the least amount of healing you can do to keep the group alive.

You only need to heal enough to ensure survival. You do not need to heal to the point where everyone is at 100% HP all the time. That is wasteful and inefficient. HPS is not maximized the same as DPS where you push out as much as possible, and I feel confident that you are conflating the two in this sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ftail

You can deny that WHM has superior HPS. But, I find it baffling you sit there and say SCH has equal HPS to WHM, even if that extra WHM HPS isn't needed most of the time. Not even Square agrees with you on that.

The developers haven’t given an indication that they even know how to balance the healers. The 5.0 changes and homogenization say as much. They also don’t seem to understand how healers at the higher levels play the roles, considering WHM’s newest Blood Lily mechanic where they now toss out unnecessary heals in order to proc it for damage and considering SCH’s issues with having to overheal to not overcap Aetherflow since Energy Drain was removed as a way to dump them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ftail

SCH can not output just as much HPS as WHM, but they can output enough HPS for the content. Maximum HPS on WHM is insane.

You can continue to quote me all you want. I still stand behind what I said, and that won’t change. No content ever requires for this “maximum HPS” that you keep going on about. Not even the hardest content in the game. You are arguing in a vacuum—not in actuality with regards to the healing needed in content. I really wish you would actually look at the numbers on that site. For everything from Ultimates to Savage to even EX and the 24-mans. In the latter two, SCH was ahead of WHM for most percentiles—they were actually at the top in terms of HPS.

I’m more inclined to side with the numbers that come from actual content. Not with opinions based on “facts” that would only be present in a vacuum.

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