The growing entitlement issues of the casuals

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

yep, in that case 20 people have to split the prize
the guy who solos it has it all to himself

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You are still missing my point. In the time it takes those 20 people to get a single item, the single person gets a single item.

Maybe every time to group of 20 drops a boss, a piece of gear drops and somebody gets it. When the solo player drops his boss, he gets a token. In the *average* time it takes a person in a group of 20 to get that piece of gear, the person doing his solo content has earned enough tokens for a piece of gear.

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Originally Posted by Mishakai

You are still missing my point. In the time it takes those 20 people to get a single item, the single person gets a single item.

Maybe every time to group of 20 drops a boss, a piece of gear drops and somebody gets it. When the solo player drops his boss, he gets a token. In the *average* time it takes a person in a group of 20 to get that piece of gear, the person doing his solo content has earned enough tokens for a piece of gear.

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nah, thats not an idea i can get behind
it almost feels like youd be punishing the solo player in that case

this isnt about seperating how content is done, and thats what you are saying there

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Originally Posted by Mishakai

Which is why I stress equal rewards for equal time invested. If I spend 20 hours successfully killing a boss in a group and someone else spends 20 hours successfully killing a boss solo, the difficulty of which is equivalent based on group size, the item rewards should also be equivalent. It is a simple concept that, for some reason, both sides seem to want to argue against.

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As long as [effort input] = [reward output], there shouldn't be a problem. A person playing solo should not be able to get the same reward that it takes a full group to get. Should they eventually be able to get it? Sure. But the effort has to be equal and balanced.

For example: You have an encounter that drops a sweet piece of gear. It takes a group to defeat said encounter. The drop rate is such that it would take the group roughly 8 hours to get everyone in the group the item.

Now, since a solo player can't defeat it, you create another avenue. You create another item (with the same stats) that can be "bought" with guild points. But in order to farm the guild points for said item, it takes about 8 hours.

In this case, both sides are putting in equal effort. I suppose you could say that the group is putting in more, since you have to organize the party and everything though... in which case you might require 9 hours of effort for the solo.


EDIT: Alternatively, you could lower the time it takes solo by a bit, to account for the fact that some people are getting the item soon, and there might be groups that only need to get 1 or 2 people the item. In which case, you could require the Solo to farm for 4 hours (half the time, but no chance of getting it "right away").

err time=/effort

which is why people say time and effort.

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

nah, thats not an idea i can get behind
it almost feels like youd be punishing the solo player in that case

this isnt about seperating how content is done, and thats what you are saying there

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It's not separating how content is done, just how gear is rewarded. Keep in mind, I am a raider. I am baffled by people who would pay a monthly fee to do content in small groups when that could easily be done with a NWN client/server setup in a way that pleases all 8 people involved.

It's hard to make the point I want to make. I consider myself a hardcore player, and a raider. However, I don't want the more casual player to feel like they have to be a hardcore to enjoy the game, otherwise, they will leave. So perhaps it is selfish. Perhaps that is why I want them to have equivalent rewards. They have something to strive for, that will take months, and keep them paying to support the game. Of course the problem now is it really seems to me that the game is starting to cater to the casual player over the raider.. I'm still not happy about the 8 person cap. I'm used to doing things with about 40 people. Like I said earlier, if I wanted to do a bunch of cool fantasy RPG stuff with 7 other people, I'd setup a NWN server.

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Originally Posted by Mishakai

It's not separating how content is done, just how gear is rewarded. Keep in mind, I am a raider. I am baffled by people who would pay a monthly fee to do content in small groups when that could easily be done with a NWN client/server setup in a way that pleases all 8 people involved.

It's hard to make the point I want to make. I consider myself a hardcore player, and a raider. However, I don't want the more casual player to feel like they have to be a hardcore to enjoy the game, otherwise, they will leave. So perhaps it is selfish. Perhaps that is why I want them to have equivalent rewards. They have something to strive for, that will take months, and keep them paying to support the game. Of course the problem now is it really seems to me that the game is starting to cater to the casual player over the raider.. I'm still not happy about the 8 person cap. I'm used to doing things with about 40 people. Like I said earlier, if I wanted to do a bunch of cool fantasy RPG stuff with 7 other people, I'd setup a NWN server.

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i understand your point but you may be putting it off wrong

lets take 2 groups

1 is a solo player
another is an 8 man

They take on NM A

Solo player takes 40 minutes to kill it
the 8 man can down him in 5 minutes

the reward SHOULD be the same for both of them

The solo player gets his drop, hes done
the 8 man gets 1 drop, they choose who gets it.

Because they are 8 people they gotta repeat it 8 times to get 8 drops.

The solo player only had to do it once, BUT it was harder for him, thus why he took 40 minutes to kill it


There is no reason the rewards should be different for these 2 situations when the mob is still the same

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

a bunch of posters saying, quite specificaly, that they should be able to achieve in 1 hour, what it takes hardcores several hours to do. Purely because they dont have as much time to commit to it.

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Not really. That's a misconstruction of the argument. All the arguments I've read are never about allowing the casual to get rewards in LESS time than the hardcore. They're about allowing EVERYONE to get rewards without having to be subject to massively boring and mindnumbing timesinks.

those who spend a lot of time on the game should definitely have the better gear. Perhaps they should do different tiers of gear... ones that would allow casual players to participate in the end game content, while having gear available with noticeably higher specs for those who play often enough to get it. perhaps boss drops on hard fights...

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

no it isnt

life is life, not everyone has as much time to do stuff as others.
if you dont have as much time as someone else, you shouldnt be able to do as much as they can do

if i have 10 hours and you have 1 hour to play every day, i by right, should get more done then you, you shouldnt have your play accelerated to keep up with me

this is where the entitlement issues are coming in guys, thank you for proving what some of us were saying earlier

it had nothing to do with access of content, but you wanting to be able to do the same thing as hardcores without playing as much as them

its a time issue, you dont have it, thats your fault, not the games

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wtf......... no..... and content is difficault based on challenge not time.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Not really. That's a misconstruction of the argument. All the arguments I've read are never about allowing the casual to get rewards in LESS time than the hardcore. They're about allowing EVERYONE to get rewards without having to be subject to massively boring and mindnumbing timesinks.

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when the timesink is leveling itself though its unreasonable to remove it
i can understand other timesinks, but every game has the leveling timesink so expecting any game to make that acception is unreasonable