Endwalker was a great mess(SPOILERS)

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

This implies that Venat did not discuss the sundering with her followers. I can't imagine anyone supporting the destruction on their civilization, or signing up to be sundered if they knew what that entailed.

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Eh I took this differently, it can simply mean it's because Zodiak is so powerful, for them to have a chance it has to be her becoming a vessel of Hydaelyn. It's implied several times that those who hold the office of Azem are peerless warrior and somewhat a battle maniac (kinda what Zeno was trying to imply about us). Hythlodaeus said that the Azems, both previous and current are a force to be reckon with.

I think they pretty mirror our status as the WoL, in term of combat prowness we're definitely the first among equal.

Ive been playing for years, loved ShB and frankly imho the OP is not wrong. I understood the story as its frankly not that complex but the story was jarring. The first couple of zones was grand but then we suddenly got bunnies in space, which was just tiring and frankly pointless. Also literally everything in the last zone was nonsense. All of them just randomly committing suicide without a care in the world. Like thancred legit dead and all except Uri were like "than-who?".

Also EW dragged... so many cut scenes and laborious needless narrative arcs that felt bitty, as we popped all over the place with barely any cohesive flow or structure.

Anyone who cant see that EW had major issues and that the the last zone of EW in particular had terrible narrative problems, awful emotional pacing and a completely missed tone is willfully ignoring it or stubbornly fanboi-ing because its square and they must protect FFXIV at all costs from the evil critique of gamers.

Im saying all of this as a player who has played since 2.0 and genuinely has gushed about how amazing ShB was and how it pushed the envelope on MMO's. EW is a let down, pure and simple. It's not as poor as some of the SB or ARR content, but to come from ShB to EW, is a marked step down in quality.

The closed time loop didn't make a whole lot of "sense". It makes sense in the way that things have to happen a certain way for the future to happen, but it paints Vanet in a very sinister light.

I think the ancients had plenty of ability to stop Meteion all on their own without being sundered. They effectively nullified Meteion's influence on them by summoning Zodiark to make a huge aether shield. If they actually knew what the outside threat was that caused the problem, surely they could have found a way to fight it. They MADE Meteion. Even if they couldn't directly fight her, they could make a much larger army of dynamis-using soldiers who would not be linked by a hivemind. And a larger army almost always beats a smaller one.

But Vanet didn't even give them a chance by telling them what they could do to beat her. She just gave them some bull about they have to live with pain and suffering to make them stronger. You know that old saying "Whatever doesn't kill you will make you stronger"? Try telling that to Arenvald who is reduced to being a cheerleader for people who actually get to do things.

And before anyone wants to say the justification is that people wouldn't believe her, just stop. She's a highly respected prior member of the convocation and Emet, Hythelodeus and Hermes just came out of a mind-wiping 'accident'. Who the Hell would people believe more? Even if they didn't believe her, she knows the future! She can tell them the final days are coming and she knows the cause. When the final days come, you cannot tell me people wouldn't believe her. She even tagged Meteion and knows where she fled to.

Did she not tell them because the closed-time loop insists the future needs to happen a certain way? That's a really shoddy storytelling device and it isn't a justification. It's up to the writers to have the closed-time loop make sense on its own merit. Vanet knowing what was going to happen should have changed the future unless she likes the idea of slaughtering her people so she can become a messiah. Which I'd 100% get behind but they never went with it for the story.

I think part of the problem is there's a bunch of information missing, too much imo to fully understand what made Venat make the choices she did. We get a cliff notes summary of how she came to the conclusion that mankind was following a dangerous path, and the only way to get them to follow a different course was by force. I do kinda like that she's a flawed character, though. And she acknowledges that herself.

But yeah. We don't know how much time Venat had to plan, or how much time any of the Ancients would have had to act before the Final Days started.

We don't know how long it took Hermes to design and create a creature that could travel long distances through space very quickly, or if it could be easily and quickly replicated, OR if anyone else had done the same thing - Meteion isn't a documented creation, the details of how she works are in Hermes head only and there's no guarantee he'd offer them up if he was told what was really going on.

We don't know that the other Ancients would've agreed with whatever solution Venat could've come up with even assuming they did believe her. The Amaurotines couldn't even agree on whether they should offer help to other people on Etheirys who were dying to the Final Days before it got to Amaurot. It was an interesting debate to them before it started to literally burn their home to the ground. Say they don't have time to stop Meteion before the Final Days are on them. If they have their shield and their all powerful deity, why would they need to do anything about Meteion? They already know the shield will work, and already know there's a potential way to undo the sacrifices needed to make it work. If Meteion's song is potentially also killing everything between her and Etheirys, well... is that really their problem? The answer to that ties in with...

Well. We don't know much about how the rest of the 14 would've acted with this foreknowledge. Emet at least would probably side with Venat, but I dunno about everyone else. We don't even know why Azem defected and, apparently, sided with no one. It's kinda head scratchy. But apparently enough of the general public disagreed with whatever Venat did end up saying/doing that the group loyal to her was a very small minority.

There's just a lot of question marks. I mean, I'm just speculating on all of this. I just think it's interesting to think about, I dunno. The story definitely had some flaws, and a few points I didn't like, but at the end of the day I still enjoyed it.

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Originally Posted by Avidria

I think part of the problem is there's a bunch of information missing, too much imo to fully understand what made Venat make the choices she did. We get a cliff notes summary of how she came to the conclusion that mankind was following a dangerous path, and the only way to get them to follow a different course was by force. I do kinda like that she's a flawed character, though. And she acknowledges that herself.

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Agreed that we lack information but again, the key limiting factor here is the closed time loop and the restrictions placed on what the characters could do. This would be the case regardless.

She had resolved not to tell the Convocation about it all to avoid them losing Hermes's expertise (whatever value it even had at that point), and based on her wording, about bringing those into the fold who could be trusted, I doubt she shared this information generally speaking at all. The way her inner circle speaks, and the Watcher characterises them, it's questionable whether even they knew. Part of it seemed to hinge on the respect she commanded amongst them IMO.

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We don't know how long it took Hermes to design and create a creature that could travel long distances through space very quickly, or if it could be easily and quickly replicated, OR if anyone else had done the same thing - Meteion isn't a documented creation, the details of how she works are in Hermes head only and there's no guarantee he'd offer them up if he was told what was really going on.

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But by that point in the time loop she'd already been tagged and I don't doubt that the ancients possessed methods of extracting information by force from Hermes if they absolutely had to. Hythlodaeus's dialogue at the end shows they knew of at least one method, i.e. that of cleansing the soul in the Underworld. They're a smart bunch, so I've little doubt they could devise other methods if they didn't already have some. Both Emet and Hyth already knew their memories were tampered with and her mind was available to scry.

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We don't know that the other Ancients would've agreed with whatever solution Venat could've come up with even assuming they did believe her.

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True, and that may be because they could've devised solutions that didn't entail fracturing their entire star.

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The Amaurotines couldn't even agree on whether they should offer help to other people on Etheirys who were dying to the Final Days before it got to Amaurot. It was an interesting debate to them before it started to literally burn their home to the ground. Say they don't have time to stop Meteion before the Final Days are on them. If they have their shield and their all powerful deity, why would they need to do anything about Meteion? They already know the shield will work, and already know there's a potential way to undo the sacrifices needed to make it work. If Meteion's song is potentially also killing everything between her and Etheirys, well... is that really their problem? The answer to that ties in with...

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People bring this up often but the reason the Amaurotine pressing for non-intervention had nothing to do with them being apathetic about their situation, but to do with the concern that that city's autonomy would be stripped from it in the process. Furthermore, the big issue with the shades is that they seem to be a mash up from different points in time, and we know this phenomenon eluded them and was being studied, so the information that shade had at that point is potentially not the picture they had by the time a full appreciation of it was gained and shared with the public. Nonetheless, it is pretty clear that the Convocation took it as a serious threat and was working on a solution to it, which we know was Zodiark. What took everyone by surprise was the speed it acted with - even so, 75% of their populace voluntarily agreed to sacrifice. The point of the debate scene was more to show how they reasoned out their differences.

Provided they had evidence to work from - the sort of evidence that was memory-wiped from Emet, Hermes and Hyth - they'd at least have a far more solid basis to act upon. If not immediately act upon it, then at the least to begin with to investigate it further. Much as they did with the Final Days phenomena, IMO.

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Well. We don't know much about how the rest of the 14 would've acted with this foreknowledge. Emet at least would probably side with Venat, but I dunno about everyone else. We don't even know why Azem defected and, apparently, sided with no one. It's kinda head scratchy. But apparently enough of the general public disagreed with whatever Venat did end up saying/doing that the group loyal to her was a very small minority.

There's just a lot of question marks. I mean, I'm just speculating on all of this. I just think it's interesting to think about, I dunno. The story definitely had some flaws, and a few points I didn't like, but at the end of the day I still enjoyed it.

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I agree that there's a lot of question marks, and the use of time travel in this case might entrench some of them for good.

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Originally Posted by hydralus

The closed time loop didn't make a whole lot of "sense". It makes sense in the way that things have to happen a certain way for the future to happen, but it paints Vanet in a very sinister light.

I think the ancients had plenty of ability to stop Meteion all on their own without being sundered. They effectively nullified Meteion's influence on them by summoning Zodiark to make a huge aether shield. If they actually knew what the outside threat was that caused the problem, surely they could have found a way to fight it. They MADE Meteion. Even if they couldn't directly fight her, they could make a much larger army of dynamis-using soldiers who would not be linked by a hivemind. And a larger army almost always beats a smaller one.

But Vanet didn't even give them a chance by telling them what they could do to beat her. She just gave them some bull about they have to live with pain and suffering to make them stronger. You know that old saying "Whatever doesn't kill you will make you stronger"? Try telling that to Arenvald who is reduced to being a cheerleader for people who actually get to do things.

And before anyone wants to say the justification is that people wouldn't believe her, just stop. She's a highly respected prior member of the convocation and Emet, Hythelodeus and Hermes just came out of a mind-wiping 'accident'. Who the Hell would people believe more? Even if they didn't believe her, she knows the future! She can tell them the final days are coming and she knows the cause. When the final days come, you cannot tell me people wouldn't believe her. She even tagged Meteion and knows where she fled to.

Did she not tell them because the closed-time loop insists the future needs to happen a certain way? That's a really shoddy storytelling device and it isn't a justification. It's up to the writers to have the closed-time loop make sense on its own merit. Vanet knowing what was going to happen should have changed the future unless she likes the idea of slaughtering her people so she can become a messiah. Which I'd 100% get behind but they never went with it for the story.

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Precisely my issue with the whole thing. The time loop is really the culprit behind why she could not tell them anything and why it'd all play out that way one way or another... so in the end, you're just stuck with a bunch of what-ifs and reasoning that is so constrained by the time loop, it comes across as unsatisfactory.

Fandaniel is only credited with things we already knew, so the excuse that he was necessary to have on the Convocation when Venat could've given them more information than he could have was not a convincing one.

I don't find it realistic that there was no documentation of Meteion's design either. Hermes may have never submitted it to the bureau, but that doesn't mean he didn't have blueprints lying around his office. Add this to the list of things we'll never know because Venat chose to remain silent.

Since they seemed adamant about a closed time loop, I believe the WoL should have remained a witness and not have been able to interact with anything or anyone in Elpis. It's one thing to observe what happened, it's another for the game to make the player character an accomplice to it. Learning that my telling them the future led to the future made me feel awful. Not to mention making my WoL BFFs with the person who I erroneously entrusted with this knowledge to misuse. I just told her that this route leads to the end of their civilization, the deaths of billions, and that we're no closer to stopping the Final Days/Meteion 12k years into the future, but she decided this is still the best course of action? Seriously?

Also like, the tiniest of pointless nitpicks but of all characters the idea of Asahi coming back as a soul to flush Amon down the toilet then just peacing out forever made me laugh. It was the limpest way to resolve anything with Amon, and kind of unresolves Asahi now that we know he's just...around still I guess.

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Originally Posted by hydralus

But Vanet didn't even give them a chance by telling them what they could do to beat her. She just gave them some bull about they have to live with pain and suffering to make them stronger. You know that old saying "Whatever doesn't kill you will make you stronger"? Try telling that to Arenvald who is reduced to being a cheerleader for people who actually get to do things.

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You should do the healer role quest because you are completely wrong about Arenvald here. He is most definitely out there doing things and not letting his setbacks slow him down.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

You should do the healer role quest because you are completely wrong about Arenvald here. He is most definitely out there doing things and not letting his setbacks slow him down.

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He's out there being used by the writers as a narrative prop to Fordola and the Skulls.