So... that spiderman shirt... (new job tease)

Blue Mage! BLUE MAGE. It's gotta be Blue Mage. But also kind of hoping for Samurai.

On a side note, I will be very displeased if they release two dps classes.

I don't mind Tanks, but the current problem I have with Tanks getting new jobs I just have a feeling they can't make them very different the same with Healers. I mean AST is just a fake WHM/SCH but with buffs. DRK is just a Magic PLD but has more damage than them. Those roles just seem very limited on what you can do for new job ideas with it being underpowered or overpowered. Now DRK has taken PLD place and now PLD isn't picked as much anymore. They add AST no one really takes them due to being underpowered and now they just made them overpowered and people take them over WHM if they could due to the almighty Balance card (enhanced Balance is a Blood for Blood...)

While you have DPS the only ones that I would say plays similar are the Ranged DPS (MCH/BRD) but that is only because of cast time. It just seems like they can do so much more when they make a DPS and still keep it balanced somewhat. That's why if they add 2 DPS now I wouldn't mind if it gives them more time to think about what they could do to make a more interesting Healer/Tank in the expansion afterwards and not add DPS.

This is just my opinion of course so don't take it as fact.

They designed Tanks and Healers into a very tight corner; their roles are so critical in function that you can't by as dynamic or flashy as you can with DPS. SO long as the right amount of damage is delivered they can design DPS any number of ways from having stack-and-release mechanics to a constant barrage of combos and finishers; anything under the Sun. Because of how they designed fights Tanks and Healers have much more defined requisites. Tanks MUST have their backs against the wall because of conal/aoe busters and they must have a cycle of mitigation buffs. At this point the only thing they can be given that keeps them fresh and differing from each other are offensive tactics. But the tanking aspect will always have to remain the same unless they completely reconstruct it.

I firmly disagree with the argument that "They can't make different Tanks/Healers".

Aside from Positionals, pretty much any "Melee DPS" mechanic can be used on a Tank. Whether it's stacks to use abilities, weapon combos, stance systems, debuffs, even "melee cast bars" (assuming damage doesn't interrupt) it could work fine on a tank. You simply turn what would be an offensive buff into a defensive one. For example, if you wanted to turn the Monk into a tank, you'd have Greased Lightning reduce damage instead. Tanks only really need a number of defensive cooldowns to reduce damage, and a couple of key abilities such as Provoke. Aside from positionals and a "take damage to deal damage mechanic", I can't think of any truly unique gameplay elements that you could put on a Melee DPS instead of a tank. They could still build a tank that is focused on procs, or a tank with a pet to reduce damage. There are still plenty of unique playstyle elements they can implement, they just have to choose to apply it to a Tank instead of a DPS.

Healers are a little harder, but there is still plenty of room to explore. Many mechanics already applied to ranged DPS can easily be applied to a healer. For example, a Dancer healer could use a weapon combo-like mechanic, however instead of dealing damage with each hit they might heal with some or all of them. Something like a Chemist, which has Mudra-like abilities to heal is certainly possible. There are even plenty of other healing options available, such as Heal-over-time focused healers, leech healers, and more.

Plus, the new Role-based system replacing Cross-class will help with this immensely. They've mentioned that key abilities like Provoke would be implemented as a Role based ability, meaning all Tanks will have it by default. They mentioned interest in making other things, like basic Defensive Cooldowns, into Role-based skills as well. This makes expansion into Healers and Tanks substantially easier. You can design encounters knowing for a fact the Tank will have Provoke, or the Healers can use Swiftcast etc. At that point, you can make sure the playstyle of each job is enjoyable.

I don't really buy the "they can't create more Healers/Tank" arguments. They have plenty of room to explore there.

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Originally Posted by Lewtskie

...Tanks MUST have their backs against the wall because of conal/aoe busters and they must have a cycle of mitigation buffs. ...

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I could say the same for DPS.

Every DPS must have cycle of damage buffs.
Every DPS must have dots.
Every DPS must have some sort of self buffs upkeep.
And so on.

Statements like these work both way.

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Originally Posted by mosaicex

Statements like these work both way.

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Except to operate within the specific rules of "deal damage" you don't need those. Tanks have to always be able to maintain a standalone position so as to not turn the boss, unless a given mechanic requires it. They must also have abilities that can mitigate a strong incoming attack or series of attacks to either survive or reduce resource strain. These were not set into the tanks because tanks have them, they were set into the role because this is how they have designed bosses. While new bosses can be made different, older bosses will always have to be kept in mind.

Every DPS up to this point has been provided a DoT, a self buff, and a move to increase output because otherwise you are excessively simplifying the mechanics of a Job. Without those you make a DPS that stands there and uses one move to deal damage. That is the basic principle of a DPS. You could easily have a DPS without a DoT, and instead factor in a new method of maintaining damage.

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Originally Posted by Claymore65

if you wanted to turn the Monk into a tank, you'd have Greased Lightning reduce damage instead.

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Totally feasible, and you're right. Any number of combat mechanics could be reworked to function for defensive purposes. But not every system. Taking a Monk and turning GL into defensive stacks, you could not do positionals as that could endanger the group, and if the gap between no stacks and full stacks is too great, with it taking enough time inbetween to build up, something would have to give elsewhere; a MNK losing GL3 feels like its the end of the world but unless you're already just barely meeting the necessary levels to pass a DPS check, the fight could go on. If that difference were on a tank, that could end up very badly. Your OT would need to be able to pick up in your place while you rebuild yourself just in case hell breaks loose.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

I'm not sure what gimmick Samurai would have. If you squint hard enough at DRK... all that parrying and dodging, two handed swords, abilities that get powered up through channeling inner magic/chi/focus.
I know they said they considered SAM before going with Dark Knight. It seems if anything the fact it was going to be in 3.0 works against it being in 4.0 as, to me at least, it looks like they reused a lot of the initial concept for DRK.

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This is something I would be willing to put money on. The Dev's are all about reusing resources, so I don't see why they would scrap one tank design and make a whole other one when they can just tag Dark on it and suddenly it fits. I've seen countering as a main mechanic tossed around a lot but that just says Blue Mage to me. I'm still hoping that the Spider-Man Shirt alludes to the Symbiotes Caranage, Venon, Toxin, and Scream. They're an alien race that attaches itself to a host in order to survive and at times in a parasitic manner, very similar to the voidlings that sneak into our world and attach themselves onto a host in order to survive. We've also been getting a lot of focus on the Void as of late so a class that derives from it would be showing up at a prime time.

Part of me gets the feeling they might reveal Samurai -and- Blue Mage in a few days, and then never tell us which the shirt was a reference to, just to keep this debate quasi-alive in the future for further speculation threads. "Remember the spiderman shirt referencing <insert job of personal preference>?"

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Originally Posted by Vexander

Part of me gets the feeling they might reveal Samurai -and- Blue Mage in a few days, and then never tell us which the shirt was a reference to, just to keep this debate quasi-alive in the future for further speculation threads. "Remember the spiderman shirt referencing <insert job of personal preference>?"

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Or it would be funny he says, "During the last Fan Fest, I wore the wrong t-shirt. In fact, Spiderman shirt is one of the t-shirt for 5.0"

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Originally Posted by Claymore65

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Like I said you can do it, I wouldn't mind seeing Tanks and Healer classes. The problem is anytime in MMOs where they experiment on tanks/healers how they play they always come out overpowered or underpowered due to just how the role is then have to spend a forever balancing it because they can't find the sweet spot for it purely based on how it was designed. It's the main reason games release DPS most of the time because they are easy to balance and you generally have more freedom with them without needing to take too many things into consideration.

Less than 48 hours to solve this mystery. Would be so interesting to see SAM with a twist. Much like DRG is Lancer with a twist.

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Originally Posted by DBelmont

Less than 48 hours to solve this mystery. Would be so interesting to see SAM with a twist. Much like DRG is Lancer with a twist.

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...but Dragoon is just Dragoon, like the Dragoons that have been in the series for a really long time.

What?

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Originally Posted by aesteval

...but Dragoon is just Dragoon, like the Dragoons that have been in the series for a really long time.

What?

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Lancer 2.0

Get that popcorn ready for salt folks. Here we go.

Last bets: RDM - DPS
SAM - DPS

Forget roles, going by this we would have 3 classes per combat stat.

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Originally Posted by aesteval

...but Dragoon is just Dragoon, like the Dragoons that have been in the series for a really long time.

What?

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DRG in FF4 was just a Lancer that could jump. There was no lore or supernatural elaboration on some inner dragon or whatever. In FFXIV DRG, there is some interesting magical twist, especially after 50.

Other jobs had that issue too. For instance, WAR was just the axe guy in classic FF games. Now, you get the inner beast thing which adds a twist. In the same manner, I am curious was SAM will turn out.

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Originally Posted by ErikMynhier

Here we go.

Last bets: RDM - DPS
SAM - DPS

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*Slams 100 gil down*

This is what I am betting on as well.

Well RDM has already been confirmed as dps, so that's a given. I'll add SAM as a tank.

Sticking with two jobs and SAM being a DPS. That's my prediction.

Still sticking with what I posted on the reddit guess thread, RDM DNC and SAM

OK, last minute prediction about the jobs:

3 jobs, RDM (DPS), SAM (Tank) BLU (Healer)

If I'm being optimistic about 3 jobs, mine is:

Samurai tank
Chemist healer


If it's just two jobs:

Samurai tank

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Originally Posted by ErikMynhier

RDM - DPS
SAM - DPS

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That along with something to mitigate the DF issues is what I am expecting. Otherwise, I'll get rich by selling dungeons during launch. xD

More hope than prediction but, sticking to SAM DPS (just hopes, nothing more than hopes)
If it does become a thing then DF doesn't even worry me since I'm already used to the long DPS q's anyway so not much would change for me xD And well, PoTD is always an option. (and to be honest the one I'd pick also for RDM so I can start at a lower level because I know that I'll end up looking at my hotbar and wondering where's the 'please send help' button. //MCH confused the hell out of me and that was only starting at lvl 30 )

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Originally Posted by Pompoen

More hope than prediction but, sticking to SAM DPS (just hopes, nothing more than hopes)
If it does become a thing then DF doesn't even worry me since I'm already used to the long DPS q's anyway so not much would change for me xD And well, PoTD is always an option. (and to be honest the one I'd pick also for RDM so I can start at a lower level because I know that I'll end up looking at my hotbar and wondering where's the 'please send help' button. //MCH confused the hell out of me and that was only starting at lvl 30 )

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PoTD won't be an option after 60. However, it is possible they might create the new dungeons in PoTD fashion where the trinity is irrelevant.

My last Predictions:
SAM - DPS (Nioh or riot!)
RDM - DPS

No guts, no glory:
SAM - DPS
RDM - DPS
Out of left field Tank/heals with the promise of a mid cycle tank/heal a la NIN.
No DNC or BLU.

My last word :
Shogun as tank
Dancer as healer

STR - DRG, MNK, SAM
VIT - PLD, WAR, DRK
DEX - BRD, MCH, NIN
INT - BLM, SMN, RDM
MND - WHM, SCH, AST

And so with 2 dps, balance is restored.

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Originally Posted by ErikMynhier

STR - DRG, MNK, SAM
VIT - PLD, WAR, DRK
DEX - BRD, MCH, NIN
INT - BLM, SMN, RDM
MND - WHM, SCH, AST

And so with 2 dps, balance is restored.

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What happens with the next expansion then? :thinking:

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Originally Posted by Katana190

What happens with the next expansion then? :thinking:

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Balance will change and we will slowly restore it again over time.

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Originally Posted by Remus

Balance will change and we will slowly restore it again over time.

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Then there's zero point in balancing it ever and thus the argument about restoring balance is entirely pointless and invalid.

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Originally Posted by Katana190

What happens with the next expansion then? :thinking:

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Odd number off balance, even balance.

3 tanks
3 healers
3 melee
5 ranged (with RDM)

3 vit
2 str
3 dex
3 int (with RDM)
3 mnd

3 tanks
3 healers
3 melee
2 physical ranged
3 magic ranged

There are tons of ways to split the groupings. Most speculation is pointless but it seems especially pointless to base it on that.

I'm of the opinion that the simplest explanation tends to be the best one. Spiderman being blue mage cause bit by spider= get spider powers sounds more plausible than samurai and sam raimi conspiracy theories.

Samurai healer! Slash allies to health because magic!

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Originally Posted by ErikMynhier

Odd number off balance, even balance.

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Stats really should just not be considered for this balance bs. NIN and BRD/MCH perform completely different roles yet they both use dex.
I'm more inclined to believe if we get another DPS it would be another Ranged Physical as there is only 2 of them and 3 of everything else, and with SAM more then likely coming... I highly doubt it will be made a Ranged Physical. If SAM is a DPS it will make 4 melee's while everything else only has 2-3. If it's a Tank, same story.
By making SAM a Melee using STR it will offset the balance of melee having 4 jobs within it's role like I mentioned. So please don't use this argument about balance. SE will do whatever because whatever they do it will offset the "Balance" for someone.

It's fine to make guesses because that's what everyone is doing because it's very soon till the announcement but please don't say such triggering things.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

3 tanks
3 healers
3 melee
5 ranged (with RDM)

3 vit
2 str
3 dex
3 int (with RDM)
3 mnd

3 tanks
3 healers
3 melee
2 physical ranged
3 magic ranged

There are tons of ways to split the groupings. Most speculation is pointless but it seems especially pointless to base it on that.

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Thank you. I agree with this comment, like I said. Anything SE do at this point will offset the "balance" for someone.

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Originally Posted by DBelmont

PoTD won't be an option after 60. However, it is possible they might create the new dungeons in PoTD fashion where the trinity is irrelevant.

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Well there's the chance I can still gain exp there (just taking a wild guess here since that's all I can do at the moment) If not then I'll just either go crawl to my friends or play TT as I wait for my DF q. New dungeons in PoTD sound nice, maybe we'll get more floors and a raise level cap for it too; who knows~

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Originally Posted by ErikMynhier

STR - DRG, MNK, SAM
VIT - PLD, WAR, DRK
DEX - BRD, MCH, NIN
INT - BLM, SMN, RDM
MND - WHM, SCH, AST

And so with 2 dps, balance is restored.

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Balance in one category, but unbalancing in another.

tanks, healers, and dps are close to their ideal ratio of 1:1:2, the same as light party compositions. 3 tanks, 3 healers, 7 dps. Adding 2 new dps jobs unbalances this ratio, making it a 1:1:3 ratio.

Thus, adding 1 tank, 1 healer, and 1 dps actually makes it a true 1:1:2 ratio, thus balance is restored. See? I can do it too.

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Originally Posted by DBelmont

PoTD won't be an option after 60. However, it is possible they might create the new dungeons in PoTD fashion where the trinity is irrelevant.

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Says who? POTD is used to level now from 1 all the way to 60.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

Says who? POTD is used to level now from 1 all the way to 60.

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While there's no confirmation, there is a high likelihood that PotD may not benefit someone past 60. When Heavensward launched, all the level 50 dungeons provided no experience points for quite some time because SE wants people in the new areas/dungeons. This same logic can be applied to PotD, ideally SE doesn't want people just cramming into PotD instead of actually doing the expansion content.

Just to add to the balance thing though, you don't want too many jobs eating off the same main stat materia unless you want imbalanced materia consumption / have an effect on cost - or they tweak the rate of materia to approx. the new demand.

I'd just tweak the drop rates over making jobs into specific groups though, seems easier to me if I was doing that stuff.

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Originally Posted by Shippuu

While there's no confirmation, there is a high likelihood that PotD may not benefit someone past 60. When Heavensward launched, all the level 50 dungeons provided no experience points for quite some time because SE wants people in the new areas/dungeons. This same logic can be applied to PotD, ideally SE doesn't want people just cramming into PotD instead of actually doing the expansion content.

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Tbh I'd rather keep PotD than run a billion FATEs though, so hopefully it doesn't turn into that (I can't know what contents they'll have available but I assume FATEs would be one of the EXP routes after MSQ, maybe a nonissue).