Do you think that Picto needs a nerf?

The biggest reason why we cannot make the same comparison in this case is accessibility. In Anabaseios BLM was a head above the next highest, but it was much harder to access that damage, sure we had probably the most BLMs playing most other points of the game, but it was still the least played caster. Most of the player base do not care about the damage as much as we think they do. Which is why SMN was the most played caster and had almost as much players as RDM and BLM combined.

This leads me to the point that even if we reduce the damage of PCT a little, I doubt we will see any substantial decline in the amount played. If we take this information into account, then we ask why does SMN suffer from damage due to ease of use, but PCT does not? Because RDM with infinite instant rez and magic barrier presents more damage than the class that can do 1 instant rez in a minute.

And here's the point I'm making: the standard for tuning is inconsistent no matter how we present a class's strength and that is why I would like to push for a response from the Devs in regard to not only PCT damage, but how they profile the casters in general.

Yeah that's kinad my point, too: If someone says "But ease of play should not factor into how much damage somebody gets to do"... sure, cool. But that also implies it's perfectly fine to adjust ease of play, right?

So if Picto gets to do deal as much or more damage as BLM while being highly mobile (ignoring the instant-cast nonsense that BLM turned into nowadays which just gives me a headache to even think about a dev signed off on that...), then naturally we ought to make it more difficult to play and that'd be no problem because well, ease of play should not factor into damage output, yes yes?

Easy list of changes:

* Filler combo now casts 2.5s
* Subtractive combo casts 3.5s
* Motifs cast 7.5s
* Holy and Comet are now 2.5s casts but can be done while moving, at half-speed (like PvP Bard)

All potencies adjusted to now touch damage output.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Yeah that's kinad my point, too: If someone says "But ease of play should not factor into how much damage somebody gets to do"... sure, cool. But that also implies it's perfectly fine to adjust ease of play, right?

So if Picto gets to do deal as much or more damage as BLM while being highly mobile (ignoring the instant-cast nonsense that BLM turned into nowadays which just gives me a headache to even think about a dev signed off on that...), then naturally we ought to make it more difficult to play and that'd be no problem because well, ease of play should not factor into damage output, yes yes?

Easy list of changes:

* Filler combo now casts 2.5s
* Subtractive combo casts 3.5s
* Motifs cast 7.5s
* Holy and Comet are now 2.5s casts but can be done while moving, at half-speed (like PvP Bard)

All potencies adjusted to now touch damage output.

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That’s actually a fantastic change I’d absolutely adore except for holy or comet as if they weren’t instant PCT would have literally zero instant cast

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

That’s actually a fantastic change I’d absolutely adore except for holy or comet as if they weren’t instant PCT would have literally zero instant cast

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This would honestly ruin the job for me. Casters have been gaining more and more mobility over time.

Melee jobs have virtually no cast time and near 100% uptime.

Until that changes, or there’s some other ground breaking change to combat design, I do not want us moving in the other direction.

It’s fine if people don’t like PCT’s design, but I don’t understand why people want to fundamentally change a design that so many people like.

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Originally Posted by Sequora

This would honestly ruin the job for me. Casters have been gaining more and more mobility over time.

Melee jobs have virtually no cast time and near 100% uptime.

Until that changes, or there’s some other ground breaking change to combat design, I do not want us moving in the other direction.

It’s fine if people don’t like PCT’s design, but I don’t understand why people want to fundamentally change a design that so many people like.

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the caster should all have cast time and mostly stay in the same spot but should do good damage still a caster that move and have to many insta cast shouldn't be a caster but a ranged instead

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Originally Posted by Nero-Voidstails

the caster should all have cast time and mostly stay in the same spot but should do good damage still a caster that move and have to many insta cast shouldn't be a caster but a ranged instead

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But they do have cast times minus summoner. Pictomancer has a lot of times where they’re stationary, they just also have tools that allow them to have movement.

Until melee actually have a penalty for needing to be on melee range, casters should have mobility.

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Originally Posted by Sequora

But they do have cast times minus summoner. Pictomancer has a lot of times where they’re stationary, they just also have tools that allow them to have movement.

Until melee actually have a penalty for needing to be on melee range, casters should have mobility.

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That’s functionally conflation of two different issues

Melees virtually having no downtime penalty forcing casters to basically be pseudo physical range to maintain rough DPS parity since square can’t design any mechanic that’s not DDR fights is not a flaw with the core design that casters by nature of being casters should be less mobile classes it’s a flaw in the fact that a slightly smaller boss hitbox doesn’t mean anything when every mechanic is designed with the space in mind that the melees never have to disengage with the boss while the range players run marathons around the outside of the arena

Caster enforced mobility to make them functioning classes is entirely the fault of the mechanical design of the game that refuses to allow anyone to stand still. Implementing the above “increase all of PCT’s cast times by 1-3 seconds” wholesale right now would break PCT but that isn’t inherently a flaw of the idea of the idea of PCT having long cast times it’s a flaw of DDR enforcing the need for constant movement because increasing PCT’s cast times isn’t actually changing its design, it’s just longer casts are non workable in the modern game design

Still think it should be that there's just no weave windows for subtractive palette and the motif painting, making their GCD 2.5s and 3s full casts, and leaving the RGB filler, comet/holy, and hammer for movement/weaving

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Originally Posted by Aysin

The biggest reason why we cannot make the same comparison in this case is accessibility. In Anabaseios BLM was a head above the next highest, but it was much harder to access that damage, sure we had probably the most BLMs playing most other points of the game, but it was still the least played caster. Most of the player base do not care about the damage as much as we think they do. Which is why SMN was the most played caster and had almost as much players as RDM and BLM combined.

This leads me to the point that even if we reduce the damage of PCT a little, I doubt we will see any substantial decline in the amount played. If we take this information into account, then we ask why does SMN suffer from damage due to ease of use, but PCT does not? Because RDM with infinite instant rez and magic barrier presents more damage than the class that can do 1 instant rez in a minute.

And here's the point I'm making: the standard for tuning is inconsistent no matter how we present a class's strength and that is why I would like to push for a response from the Devs in regard to not only PCT damage, but how they profile the casters in general.

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I mean can you tell me how much ease of you should be calculated in damage? As in. How much more damage should black do compared than pictomancer for difficulty to be a fair argument.

How to do you actually apply that. Saying it is nebulous because not only is it subjective.

And regardless of if black mage is even as hard NOW as it allegedly has been in 6.0. How would you reasonably distribute damage off of this metric?

100 or 200 DPS? Than PCT

As long as BRD does bad damage and VPR and PCT do sick dmg difficulty plays no role in damage