Jumping confirmed

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Originally Posted by Dragon

Firstly, there is no proof whatsoever they're making maps around jumping being made, and at best such maps may be centered around context-sensitive jumping.

Secondly, it is not emotional to realize the hypocrisy in you wanting choices that support you while denying choice for others. Deal with your own logic. There is nothing wrong with having the freedom of choice, for either side.

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You didn't see the test map they were running around in while showing off the animations did you? You claim to be all for freedom of choice but don't even realize the severity of what you are asking. You might as well throw out any arguments you've had about immersion because sliding up and down cliffs and floating over crevices is not at all. You've been nothing but emotionally involved this entire time to even start thinking about it clearly.

You are not playing a single player RPG, you are playing an MMO. That means you have to deal with other players and what the do and ignore it if it bothers you. This is the last place you should be looking for toggles on core features. MMO's are built on social interaction, you are only looking to damage that over jumping.

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Originally Posted by Zoltan

Like erase them from existence? I'd pay for that.

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Yes, actually. Blacklisting someone naturally implies you want the least bit of interaction whatsoever, which also involves them taking up the least amount of resources possible.

If they add jump I don't see why it should be filtered, then again I'm not of the "Choices" side of things I think content should be developed in a way that's not going to have people wanting it filtered.

If you create something thats so bad that a portion of your populace doesn't even want to see it...then I think you did something wrong. There are plenty of solutions to a "Bunny hop" scenario and I assume SE is going to have a look at those options.

One solution would be to just flat out filter the jump animation, characters would "Climb up" or "Through" objects on your screen but I would consider it a viable option in town and click it off in the field when people might actually be jumping around for legitimate reasons.

Having a distance that you don't observe player animations would be another, restricting how often you can jump could work...there are tons of ways it could be done tastefully. Let's just hope SE deems them worth looking at and don't just stick to the ultra themepark route that WoW takes with everything it does.

FFXI and FFXIV have a more "Mature" feeling to them as far as MMO's go as far as I can tell where WoW pretty much will go out of their way to make a immature job or hillarious situation within its own game mechanics. It works for WoW, but personally it's why I stay away from that game because it's not my style. I do hope FFXIV doesn't change it's style too much.

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Originally Posted by Tiraelina

You didn't see the test map they were running around in while showing off the animations did you? You claim to be all for freedom of choice but don't even realize the severity of what you are asking. You might as well throw out any arguments you've had about immersion because sliding up and down cliffs and floating over crevices is not at all. You've been nothing but emotionally involved this entire time to even start thinking about it clearly.

You are not playing a single player RPG, you are playing an MMO. That means you have to deal with other players and what the do and ignore it if it bothers you. This is the last place you should be looking for toggles on core features.

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Cool story bro.

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Originally Posted by Dragon

Firstly, there is no proof whatsoever they're making maps around jumping being made, and at best such maps may be centered around context-sensitive jumping.

Secondly, it is not emotional to realize the hypocrisy in you wanting choices that support you while denying choice for others. Deal with your own logic. There is nothing wrong with having the freedom of choice, for either side.

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The reason jump isn't being implemented til 2.0 is due to the maps that are being redeveloped with jump in mind. This is something that was said in the live letter.

When a complete official translation is written you'll be able to see this with your own eyes. I'm sorry that I am right most of the time. I can't help that, but what I can help is to take your own advice and blacklist you. :) Really no reason that I should be trying to hold a discussion with someone such as yourself.

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Originally Posted by BruceyBruceyBangBang

Like I said previously, the height is off, but theoretically all races can jump at the same height. This is a fact.

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http://simplebutsignificant.com/wp-c...Muscle_Man.jpghttp://www.tranquilitycentre.com/wp-...r060600045.jpg
They can theoretically jump the same hight?

Oh boy...I want to know where you get your "Facts" I'm pretty certain I know though and it smells of poo.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

http://simplebutsignificant.com/wp-c...Muscle_Man.jpghttp://www.tranquilitycentre.com/wp-...r060600045.jpg
They can theoretically jump the same hight?

Oh boy...I want to know where you get your "Facts" I'm pretty certain I know though and it smells of poo.

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but this isn't the same because you're taking two very different builds of fitness. In FFXIV, the races are programmed to be very slightly different from each other in performance.

I'm only 5'6 in real life, my character is about that size as well, if you pair me with someone who is 6' and compares to me equally in fitness I will be able to jump the same height as them.

You cannot argue this because it goes against physics. Unless you somehow are able to bend them... which I doubt you of all people could.

Edit: Actually, now that I think of it, your point can go against what you're trying to make. Theoretically, the body builder with his height and mass could not get very far off the ground in relation to his body. The child does not have as much mass holding them down, but they are much smaller. The distance between the ground and their feet will still relatively be the same.

Thanks for making a point that actually supports my argument even though you probably didn't intend that to happen. lol

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

Technically only Jumping out of the way, or rolling out of the way, stuff like that is generally a mechanic based off of platformers because good platformers have boss encounters that requires utilization of all your movement mechanics, like Ys games, just simply running backwards to get out of AoE range or stepping to the sides of a vertical/conal attack isn't platforming, most RPGs were generally in a 2D plane -- Eternal Sonata for example is far from a platformer but you can avoid quite a bit of attacks in that game just by positioning yourself properly.

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Yet Eternal Sonata employs action timing, prompts from other action games.

Mario RPG does the same thing with it's reaction button.

FFVI, Blit's system's input, very much like fighting games.

Breath of Fire III, same thing with several moves.

FFVIII, Gunblade mechanics in general.

The list goes on.

And let's not get into platformers with RPG elements, or RPGs that took so much from platformers that they ended up creating an entire sub-genera (Action RPGs)

MMO's are headed in that direction too, to their credit, in my opinion.

As far as only 'rolling and jumping' out of the way being the only dodge mechanic in plat formers, I'd have to disagree. Dodging has been a mechanic in several genres before jump and roll existed, jumping added another depth to the original side scrollers as well as 2D adventure games as they developed. But the emphasis on dodging and countering attacks afterwards has been a staple for many genres, except RPGs in its infancy.

It really depends on your opinion of whether or not you give the predecessors to platform games credit for what platformers came from and if you include dodging without jumping part of its mechanics.

But even FFXI had a touch of it in there, the best example of course being Zantazuken and being able to dodge it by kneeling or resting.

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This is already very clear without a Jump mechanic. The thing is though, since Yoshida already mentioned the word "emote" when he first brought up Jumping, this is why I don't think it would be something that could be filtered, since it would be an emote. So unless the map redesigns is radically changing everything about the game, there will still be barriers and the like in places.

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Referring to invisible walls, they're inevitable if you want to keep a certain quality of experience in your game. But there are a lot of pathing issues as well. One-way drops that really shouldn't be, impassible ankle-high ledges that you could trip over and be on the other side of. These sorts of things can and should be regarded with a jump function that, if you're pretending jump doesn't exist, would be really awkward and clunky.

Now, in the interest of full disclosure, I'm of the opinion that colision detection in general in the game right now is bad. It makes no sense to me why characters can't be knocked down, and that their only way to fall in battle is to essentially tire out and collapse. I think the animation department can do a bit more for immersion in that regard.

Then again, I might have bene spoiled a bit by Aion. Still, it doesn't make sense to me why Ifrit's 2hr or some of his blast attacks don't flatly lay-out players, if by nothing else as a stun effect with an understandable animation behind it.

It'd make abilities like "Leg Sweep" more believable too.

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He also brought up there's the possibility of in-game configuration, which means there's a good chance like FFXI you'll be able to toggle a fair bit of animations and clipping panes, which if you have played XI before you would remember how if a player is just out of a certain distance from you you don't see what they're doing animation wise.

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True, but this is in no way an emote filter. Again, like in FFXI, there is no emote filter for motions. If someone on your blacklist does a /hurray motion, you still see the /hurray motion. Heck, you still even hear the sounds.

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So in the end it is a wait and see situation.

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Agreed. Though some people can stem to listen to reason more.

Chopping a giant post down a bit:

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Originally Posted by Dragon

Look in the mirror, you're being pompous, not me.

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Again with the counter-accusations. Why can't you hold a respectful conversation? I didn't even call you pompous. I said you're being overly aggressive. You still haven't changed that tone.

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I've accepted that people want jumping in the game, why you can't accept I want to be able to turn it off and be able to remove people completely from my screen as a blacklist function should is beyond me.

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I accept that you want them. I disagree they should be implemented.

As far as ignoring players out of existence, both model and text. (Sort of a new argument as far as my participation in it.)... um... That's an awkward desire to have in an MMO.

It sort of bypasses the entire idea of an MMO as a social element to be able to just block out all the people you don't like. Suddenly you've got your friends and/or talking to people that don't exist to you, doing activities with them.

It's fine for forums when words are the only medium, but in a game I think it goes too far.

I mean, it's your right to be antisocial, but why are you in a social medium if so? If you don't like someone or a group of someones that bad, change servers. Otherwise I believe being able to completely block someone out like that is a bit far off the deep end.

There are plenty of people in games I don't like, but it's a big world and I'm ok with sharing the space with others. It's enough that I don't have to listen to them. Wanting to erase them for existence... I'll be honest, begs questions of the person desiring that.

As far as mechanical reasons to say no to that: PVP in general, claim competition on world NMs, or on monsters in general, positioning concerns during larger scale events. Pretty much anything that includes content you might both be interacting with, by chance or on purpose, is a potential problem in that circumstance.

It also opens you up for anonymous harassment ("Why did that monster I was going to claim disappear, oh! Because someone on my Blist claimed it in front of me and I couldn't see it. Now... which guy on my Blist did that?")

So there's more than just personal stance disagreement on why you can't filter out someone's model completely. It can really cause some awkward situations there.
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As for my reasons against jump filtering; I've said them before, but I will state it again just for clarity.

- You cannot currently ignore motions in this game. So you're singeing out one function among many equally annoying in potential.
- Implementing such a feature inherently limits the function of further development of said feature in any further update. This doesn't just 'filter out' your desire not to want to see jumping. This removes all possibility for jumping to be anything other than an aesthetic mechanic, which would remove the point of jumping all together.
- It only regards the issue on a private level.
It will cause both pathing confusion and still cause immersion loss. What's the difference between a person jumping over a fence and a person walking through it when it comes to immersion loss?


See, being able to filter this isn't the whole of your request, as you say. You're wanting this to have zero impact on the game, and THEN be able to ignore that too.

If they are implementing jump, I would rather it serve a function, and then have limited use in areas in which it serves no purpose, than to simply be able an ignorable process all together.

That would be my compromise at least. I have no problem with people jumping at will.

I understand your stance on wanting not to have to annoyed by someone say, constantly jumping in the middle of town, or skipping out on the road somewhere. But putting it on ignore feature like that really can cause problems for this making it anything but a limited function, and I can't agree with that.

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For the record, I don't agree with range-based AoEs coming from the enemy mob. If anything, everyone in a party should be affected by an AoE regardless of range or positioning. I don't like platformers, and I'm not here to play some silly platforming game.

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You're already out of your comfort zone then. Ifrit's plumes only effect the areas they light. Ifrit's charge only effects the areas in which his model crosses over.

Several NM and non NM monsters have moves entirely based on positioning (Doe's charge and back-kick come to mind.) And this dosen't even touch player range limitations and positioning concerns, which will be expanded on with the combo system.

If I am to take you at your word, SE's already gone against your preferences for the sake of creating a better experience for those who do not mind this. Yes, there are AoEs that are dodge-able and undodgeable. Both mechanics exists, and they will continue to exist. They're exciting, in my, and many other peoples' opinions.

I don't see why jumping should be kept out of that except for lag reasons.

I'm sorry, but it's already here and here to stay, and many people enjoy it. I don't see a purpose in holding greater depths in the games mechanics back on behalf of what I can only see as preference towards a dated playstyle.

We've already crossed that line.

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(Oh and if you didn't noticed, we're still using turn-based concepts... I mean, you do realize you can't just use an ability or attack whenever you want since everything is under cooldown? Even in an action/adventure game, you'll find turn-based concepts. The only mainstream genre you really won't find turn-based concepts are mindless shooters.)

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Except those turn-based concepts are becoming aggressively more and more muted with each iteration.

Take for instance, Dragon Age vs Dragon Age II's combat styles. PC version, you have auto attack, certainly, but the console versions has the option to manually attack.

But you're right, the process works in reverse. More and more RPG and other Genre mechanics are merging together. This is not a bad thing. Sure, I understand you don't want to play a platformer. But some platform elements could be used to enhance the game further and make it more exciting. Jumping can be used to this end as well. If it was, your filter idea would be harmful to that potential if implemented.

And, I mean no offense by this, but it seems your ideals about MMOs and games in general are a bit on the fringe, when it comes to common opinion. I might be wrong in my assessment, I'm sorry if so, but that's just my perspective. Regardless, I would rather not see the potential for good development for the game be held back on behalf a few.

I want this game to be successful beyond just a niche audience, and that's going to take changes both of us might be uncomfortable with. In this case, jump is a long time coming, and overdue to many people. And if they're going to implement it, I'd rather it be done right, and done to enhance the gameplay. That classes with your global filtering idea, I'm sorry.

But I did offer alternatives of my own.

TL;DR:

Ignoring players is a bit too antisocial in a social game and can be abused in several manners.

Ignoring Jump limits its functionality in the game, and if they're implementing jump it should at least be useful.

The game already implements ideas you disagree with rather greatly.

You're free to disagree, but the game should appeal to its widest base, regardless of the comforts of a minority. That includes changes I would be uncomfortable with too.

i hate these forums sometimes people always trying to double the devs work, I don't like when other people's char looks at me when they target me, they should make an toggle for that too!