That's when you need to keep that within reasonable balance of each other. Bard is better than mch in almost all aspects in regards to progression for pushing Dps, and speed kills, but some groups still run with a mch over a bard, and same with meld and caster to an extent. There needs to be some flavor or at least a sense of empowerment with the job, otherwise you're playing at the same pacing and strength for the entirety of the expansion.
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01-12-2016, 02:27 AMRiceisNice
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01-12-2016, 02:41 AMKaurieFirst, I thought we were talking about stats balance, not job balance?Quote:
Originally Posted by Velhart
Second, if people were not taking me due to playing an underpowered job, I'd find someone else to group with. I am a raid/static leader, so I choose whether I am going or not. Nearly every person I have met in game has always said "play what you want". This is the motto for my team too.
Third, this game has shown that player skill trumps class balance by a long shot.
Sure, i think of the consequences. I just think that the dev team is not fully incompetent, and that having variation is fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Velhart
Outside of raiding, I fully agree. I think the nerf to Steps of Faith was uncalled for - for example. I've never been in a group that had to vote abandon this fight, and was able to clear it on my 2nd run with my first group on the first day. It wasn't a hard fight, but it required a bit of game knowledge and coordination.Quote:
Originally Posted by Velhart
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01-12-2016, 02:48 AMVelhartThat is something that is debatable. Obviously each job should play differently and have it's own flavor, but in cases like MCH and BRD I wonder if their support functions in general should be more symmetrical since it doesn't completely break the differences MCH and BRD have. That can have it's own issues however. They did say in 3.2 we would likely see changes that in fights that require more tanking and healing, so that alone might balance which one you take in terms of heavy progression. Just have to see.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
It ultimately falls into the same category. Since you have to completely rework the job system to favor the new stat system.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaurie
And the system proposed could put that into question.Quote:
Third, this game has shown that player skill trumps class balance by a long shot.
It is not a matter of if they are incompetent or not. It is simply over the top balancing that couldn't even be approached steadily in FFXI/1.xx, so expecting them to bring a similar system to that back and not be a mess balance wise does not seem realistic.Quote:
Sure, i think of the consequences. I just think that the dev team is not fully incompetent, and that having variation is fun.
Yep. Instead of giving a small push to players, they simply dumb down the fight. For Steps of Faith in particular, what they could of done to make it easier is simply doing a better job explaining what is going on and what function does what. It wasn't a fight that needed to be dumbed down, it was just a fight people needed to understand. Before the nerfs, going in the only issue was people didn't know what the canons or dragonkiller did.Quote:
Outside of raiding, I fully agree. I think the nerf to Steps of Faith was uncalled for - for example. I've never been in a group that had to vote abandon this fight, and was able to clear it on my 2nd run with my first group on the first day. It wasn't a hard fight, but it required a bit of game knowledge and coordination.
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01-12-2016, 02:53 AMFizzleofHyperion
Velhart: Horizontal progression is a solution if Yoshi P can actually stick by it and not nerf content because lazy players don't want to work for something. If you can acheive something by investing time gil effort without it beeing useless in 3 months thats when Horizontal progression can actually work. During this thread you have been really negative towards all reusage of FFXI ideas it seems because you feel they have already been done before.
They can also be revamped and have more thought process into it. I'm like you I don't want a new FFXI but I wouldn't mind some of the content that made FFXI amazing. If Yoshi P and his team can put some thought process into the Horizontal progression and actually asking the JP/NA/EU members for opinions and living up to it some stuff can actually work.
The Relic quest can be where it starts. I haven't even bothered with starting the stage from i200 to i210 you know why? Cause I already know its going to be nerfed. Whats the point of doing it now when I can catch up with the rest eventually anyway? This is the gaming mentality that needs to be erased from this game. Make stuff rewarding make people work for it. If players are lazy then a relic might not be for them get the esoterics one it works just as good is not glowy. If you really want something then work for it its frustrating to see that people are giving handouts just because they pay for a subscription so they are entitled to everything you have with less effort they just don't have to be "first".
I remember Yoshi P said that the stats on gears atm is because the new generation of gamers want it simplistic? IMO why would you want to make something simplistic when there are games already that offer the simplistic stuff. The current way of dealing stats is extremly unpersonal. You know this yourself it does not stick out. FFXI jobs eventhough if they didn't feel balanced where unique and you understood that each job needed its unique status. Also SE should have really asked the players on how the jobs should have been instead of going all out and giving us AST DRK AND MCH in a way we maybe never wanted anyways. Why coulnd't MCH be a Corsair that used Dice and Cards and guns? Revamped with the turrets etc. AST could have been removed and just have been Red Mage or anything else. Sometimes tradition is good nothing wrong with new ideas but sometimes it can backfire. I still don't see a THF job in this game and why couldn't Rogue be a starting point for Ninja and Thief kinda like Arcanist where you got two jobs. One could be focused on ninjutsus and tools and other more focused on trick attacks sneakattacks evasion etc. Why wasn't the players asked about this? This is just an example whats done is done here. I'm not holding on into some precious FFXI dream I just love the FF brand and I love this MMORPG and I do not wish to see it fall apart because money wins over the heart and passion of the brand. -
01-12-2016, 03:06 AMVelhartIt is because I am so familiar with FFXI that I bring myself to that understanding. I can actually name a lot of things from FFXI I would like to see put into the game. What I see asked are unrealistic and do not contribute to what would benefit FFXIV in it's current context. People preach the idea, but have not actually contributed ideas that prove it is a better system. I care about making the current systems in place work, because that is the obvious direction it is going.Quote:
Originally Posted by FizzleofHyperion
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01-12-2016, 03:07 AMDzianIt kind of is though I think. many of the problems the game has comes down to ilevel gear. I would bet ilevel gear is a big contributer to the low clear rates on savage for example. I base than on what I saw with coil before 3.0 and various other mmos Ive played.Quote:
Originally Posted by Velhart
it's simply because there's no incentive for people to try and clear the harder content when the rewards last a month and whats hard now will be nerfed in a month as well. Yoshi himself said in beta gear wasn't something to cherish as it was all going to made obsolete. which in essence means the rewards for clearing content aren't valuable or worth cherishing. so players don't bother with it. or if they do they wait until its been nerfed.
i'd bet for many the fact the rewards are junk puts them off even trying savage a lot more than the fact it's hard. and with that i'd also bet if the rewards were a lot more valuable long term you'd see a lot more people giving it a go. even if they never nerfed it.
as XI keeps coming up in this thread i'll refer to COP. the difficulty was constant for a few years and there are many many fights there that had players stuck for months on end but a lot of them stuck with it because the rewards for clearing it were amazing.
then there's the issue I mentioned earlier in this thread. where there's simply no point playing each month when everything you do will be junk next month thus being a waste of time which again comes back to a real lack of incentive.
there was a thread I spotted yesterday about player census or something, 200,000 active players. I would think lack of incentive is partly responsible there as well. -
01-12-2016, 03:16 AMKaurieThat is a pretty big assumption. That said, the jobs are already imbalanced. (i.e. See who wants a PLD over DRK for Savage).Quote:
Originally Posted by Velhart
See last point. This is a pretty big assumption. As the game is already imbalanced, but shows that player skill trumps balance. I mean you can have 600 DPS DRG and a 1400 DPS DRG. I am sure that the added stat variation will amplify this, but it won't make the 600 DPS DRG any less wanted. People will still look for player skill over player job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Velhart
I am not sure why you think that FFXI is the only place which has done horizontal progression or interesting stats before. I never played it, so I can't speak to them. That said, Guild Wars II is quite successful and focuses on Horizontal Progression (Even though I hate their system). WoW has much more interesting stats and trait lines in jobs, and has been very successful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Velhart
I think that the devs are fully capable of making their own system, and not copying FFXI, and balancing it.
I think the TLDR is, just because it has failed before does not mean it will always fail. Further, the failures that you're talking about are already present in this game.
If I were to propose a solution this is how I would do it:
1. Make every item have materia slots
2. Make coloured materia slots and types to limit certain types of materia (i.e. a Eso Chest Piece may have 1 red and 2 purple slots, Crafted may have 3 green, whereas the raiding chest piece has 2 red and 1 blue slot etc)
3. Increase the number of stat types and categories
RED: Damage oriented
Crit Severity
Crit Chance
Determination
BLUE: Resource oriented
MP Refresh rate increase
TP Refresh rate increase
MP consumption decrease
Purple: Speed oriented
Spell Speed
Skill Speed
Ability Re-cast time
Auto-attack rate increase
Green: Health oriented
+ set HP (not VIT, just HP)
+ HP Regen in battle
Yellow: Other/Movement
Increased movement speed (10% out of battle 5% in, or something)
Stealth (lowers the chances of being seen when sneaking past mobs)
Decrease falling damage
4. Have more ways to obtain Materia - Diadem was a great step. Add Materia as rare drops in Expert Roulette and common drops in raid content
5. Make Materia meldable by anyone, or at least have a vendor that can meld it for you for Gil if you do not have the crafting job -
01-12-2016, 03:22 AMFizzleofHyperion
Dzian: I'm really happy to see I'm not alone sharing my views aswell. I want content thats rewarding like you. I don't want to work hard for something thats useless next month and then I have to work again for the new thing. I just don't understand why Yoshi P and his took almost 2 years making us do this for them to wake up and see we don't need the game like this. If the majority of the players are waking up and not wanting this crazy item hunt and want something different why not just give it to us. I'm not playing FFXIV because it reminds me of WoW I'm playing FFXIV because I want a FF MMORPG experience. If I wanted to play WoW I would go there if I wanted FFXI I would go there. If Yoshi P is gonna use elements from other MMORPGs then stop using elements from everything but FFXI. When FFXI elements are used most uf want more than item names from FFXI or creatures. We actually want stuff what made FFXI so unique.
Meaning we want a game that is rewarding but learn from FFXI aswell don't turn it into a grind fest where people feel they have to give up when they can't catch up fast enough. Add more worldmap content we all wanted bigger maps but we didnt want empty maps where there is nothing to do on them besides hunts fates and gathering stuff when we are out of heavensward quests. I really hope Yoshi P reads all comments here its alot of productive ideas coming from everyone even stuff that I usually wouldn't agree with but it might actually work.
Kaurie: I think you would have loved FFXI during its golden era. The way the game was built all the teamwork it required and how it punished you for mistakes plus the amazing level down sound effect LOL. Nah but seriously aside from a few negative stuff about FFXI that most of us can agree on. There are atleast 50 amazing things I can tell you about FFXI that Yoshi P could have learned and studied. Nothing to copy but study why that game was so great why its still functioning after 14 years and why players still enjoy that game to this day. Everything isnt because of the nostalgia feeling. I promise you if FFXI as it is now had a graphics revamp so many players would leave for it I can almost guarantee it. Enough of that though.
Good things about FFXI offered me the following:
An epic storyline
hard content that was enjoyable and rewarding
Understanding that I'm not playing skyrim where I think I'm a one man army that can solo everything.
I had to play with respect and not a 10 year old child or I would have been filtered out quick and not getting help. Meaning douchebags get filtered out quick like early pullers for hunts etc like we have now would have been demolished.
A game soundtrack that was more than just rock music and chanting for almost every track of the game.
An overwhelming amount of spells abilities for almost all classes.
Alot of teamplay content meaning even my jobquests I couldn't do solo like im doing now and I had to bring people with me. I'm playing an MMORPG afterall if I want to solo stuff I can go to Fallout Skyrim and Witcher.
Gears that where valuable for many years to come and stuff didnt get outdated because of some weird chase for having the latest item thats usless by march like it is here.
Relic weapons where enjoyable they grew with you and they actually still do. They didnt ruin the relics from FFXI instead they could evolve to level 99 now something that Yoshi P should really take into consideration and learn from.
Relics also took time effort gil and teamwork to obtain!
Summons in FFXI didn't look like pokemons like they do here and especially not like some WoW Warlock either.
Ninja as ninja in FFXI and wasnt a combination of Ninja and Thief like it is on FFXIV.
Gear stats where amazing.
Merit points system where you could customize your character as you please.
You could actually borrow gears to your friends in FFXI and help them with content without this strange spiritbond system.
There was more to do than just Alexander Savage. You had so much endgame content to do it was crazy.
etc:
Bad things about FFXI imo:
Waiting forever for a party (something thats way better in FFXIV)
It was unforgiving if you didn't play alot you could'nt catch up and had to quit and thats not fun for anyone.
Abyssea
Also weekly lockouts during dynamis aht urghan relic areas etc.
No guidelines on where to go etc you where so lost.
It dependent a bit too much on alot of players.
It was too much of a competition feeling at times.
The list goes on but you would have loved FFXI.
FFXIV is amazing its just that its over 2 years now and along this way they have to listen more to what the non casual market wants. Sadly the Casuals are also trend jumpers meaning the next MMORPG that comes they will just go to that and we will be stuck with feeding a market of whats "hot right now in mmorpgs".
I just don't want my favourite MMORPG at current time get ruined thats all. Forgive me for writing so much if I didn't care about FFXIV and the future of it I wouldn't be so determined to voice my opinion. -
01-12-2016, 04:00 AMFeliAikoTo be honest, the NPCs in Steps do enough explaining on what to do. The cannons weren't a new mechanic: you had the same concept in Castrum and both Stone Vigils, so a NPC telling you to use the cannons on the dragon shouldn't have been a difficult concept to get and execute. A speech bubble telling you to use the snares during Vishap's long cast is self-explanatory. Problem is people just went stupid and gave up/cried for nerfs instead of actually trying to follow simple instructions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Velhart
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01-12-2016, 04:03 AMAlahraUnfortunately, I think you'll find that in the long run it's far from a majority of players that want something more like FFXI's structure. There's not, to my knowledge, any horizontal progression game that has a subscriber base as large as this one's (with perhaps roughly 700k actively playing subscribers and more that are subscribed) and definitely none with a population anywhere approaching WoW's. From what I recall, FFXI peaked at somewhere between 500k and 750k subscribers, but how many of those were actually active is anyone's guess. FFXIV is a much younger game with more subscriptions than that, at least judging by what data's available to us, as is WoW, and part of what makes that possible is that the "vertical treadmill" is better at encouraging players to continue subscribing.Quote:
Originally Posted by FizzleofHyperion
I would like to see more variety in gear stats and also more variety in the number of gear sets available for any given raid tier (and personally I think perhaps a 9 month cycle for raid tiers, as opposed to a 6 month one, with larger raids would suit me better), but given the current state of the MMO market and what consumers in general seem to want, any major shifts to horizontal progression as a whole for FFXIV are very unlikely.