What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Yes because the time that she uses Krile, it’s before we know the final days are actually coming, and it’s near the beginning of the expansion so Yshtola should still be skeptical of her, but she isn’t. It doesn’t matter if she’s willing but also….that again is my point, SHE SHOULDNT BE.

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Huh?!? We already knew the Final Days were coming because Fandaniel's plan was leading up to the breaking of Zodiark's seal. Hydaelyn uses Krile twice: once to give you the Elpis flower for the purpose of leading you to Elpis, and again to delay Fandaniel and Zenos so that you could potentially STOP Zodiark's seal from being broken and negate the entire problem.

Krile is a big girl and can make her own decisions.

Further, Y'shtola REPEATEDLY calls Hydaelyn's plans into question. She is constantly asking "What does Hydaelyn even want, and why isn't she talking to anyone directly?"

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

Huh?!? We already knew the Final Days were coming because Fandaniel's plan was leading up to the breaking of Zodiark's seal. Hydaelyn uses Krile twice: once to give you the Elpis flower for the purpose of leading you to Elpis, and again to delay Fandaniel and Zenos so that you could potentially STOP Zodiark's seal from being broken and negate the entire problem.

Krile is a big girl and can make her own decisions.

Further, Y'shtola REPEATEDLY calls Hydaelyn's plans into question. She is constantly asking "What does Hydaelyn even want, and why isn't she talking to anyone directly?"

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Yes, yet somehow none of that questions or skepticism comes out when we’re finally face to face with her. The fact they don’t do any of that the one moment it would have mattered and made the most sense is pretty telling.

It doesn’t matter if Krile is a big girl or not. If your friend is being controlled by someone who had already gotten another friend indirectly killed by doing the same thing…are you really going to let them near that person again? Personally i’d keep my friend far away from that person, no matter the reason. It doesn’t matter if Minfilia consented or not. I mean, are we just gonna forget about the countless little girls that Hydaelyn used on the first as well? I highly doubt they consented but it’s funny that isn’t ever brought up is it. I just find it hilarious how people poke and prod at every little thing the ancients did “wrong.” And all of that is brought to the forefront throughout the story yet things like Hydaelyn using little girls as meat puppets isn’t.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Yes, yet somehow none of that questions or skepticism comes out when we’re finally face to face with her. The fact they don’t do any of that the one moment it would have mattered and made the most sense is pretty telling.

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Again, I agree with this point. But the argument that Hydaelyn's actions were never doubted at all is just not true.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

It doesn’t matter if Krile is a big girl or not. If your friend is being controlled by someone who had already gotten another friend indirectly killed by doing the same thing…are you really going to let them near that person again? Personally i’d keep my friend far away from that person, no matter the reason. It doesn’t matter if Minfilia consented or not.

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If my friend A) wanted it and B) claimed that it would be beneficial to our plans to, you know, save the world, yes I would.

People consent to things that kill them all the time. Especially when it comes to religion. Hell, in the era we live in right now, I'm not going to go and force a mask on someone's face or jab a syringe into them just because I'm worried they might die from COVID because of some silly religious/political beliefs.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I mean, are we just gonna forget about the countless little girls that Hydaelyn used on the first as well? I highly doubt they consented but it’s funny that isn’t ever brought up is it.

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Tbh, they've never really explained how that even worked. I'm not sure whether Hydaelyn was deliberately passing down that power or if it was just something automatic, like Gaia. I guess we'll see, if Ryne still has her powers even after Hydaelyn's gone.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I just find it hilarious how people poke and prod at every little thing the ancients did “wrong.” And all of that is brought to the forefront throughout the story yet things like Hydaelyn using little girls as meat puppets isn’t.

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People going too far in one direction doesn't make you correct when you go too far in the OTHER direction.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Meanwhile the team that brought us Heavensward is still locked into FFXVI which shows no signs of coming out anytime soon, so no one knows when they'll be back if at all.

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I would have so much more hype for 7.0 if I knew Maehiro wrote the outline and/or would be returning as the MSQ writer.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Shadowbringers was presented as a battle between two opposing heroes seeking to safeguard their respective people and continue their existence. With the position Venat had put them both in, only one could emerge victorious.

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This part is still so unforgivably sadistic to me. As if the fact that Venat sundering Azem, her protege, wasn't bad enough, she spares Emet, then knowingly pits the two against each other in a fight to the death. Once again, why in TF would I trust the person not only responsible for ending my original incarnation by splitting my soul asunder, but knowingly guiding me to the point that I had to kill one of the people who was dearest to me (and vice versa)? Frankly, on a psychological level, it's worse than any other antagonist in the game has done.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

Again, I agree with this point. But the argument that Hydaelyn's actions were never doubted at all is just not true.



If my friend A) wanted it and B) claimed that it would be beneficial to our plans to, you know, save the world, yes I would.

People consent to things that kill them all the time. Especially when it comes to religion. Hell, in the era we live in right now, I'm not going to go and force a mask on someone's face or jab a syringe into them just because I'm worried they might die from COVID because of some silly religious/political beliefs.



Tbh, they've never really explained how that even worked. I'm not sure whether Hydaelyn was deliberately passing down that power or if it was just something automatic, like Gaia. I guess we'll see, if Ryne still has her powers even after Hydaelyn's gone.



People going too far in one direction doesn't make you correct when you go too far in the OTHER direction.

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Again, i’m not going too far in the other direction. Okay i’m sorry, Yshtola doubts her a couple times. Meanwhile the other scions? All blindly following hydaelyn. So sorry. Compare that to how the ascians and Zodiark are treated and yeah…. It really isn’t reaching too far. It’s painfully obvious that they retconned the whole suspicious of Hydaelyn thing. I mean if you want a better example, when we have the choice to bring up hydaelyn’s lies to the watcher, he simply says yeah she lied, and then that’s completely handwaved and he goes off on another tangent.Meanwhile how many storylines have we had now that revolved solely around “ascian bad and ebul!”

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Okay i’m sorry, Yshtola doubts her a couple times. Meanwhile the other scions? All blindly following hydaelyn.

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When? Most of the other Scions don't care about Hydaelyn one way or another. The twins are mostly focused on the human element (learning the Forum's plans, saving the Garleans, saving the Hannish, and then using the Ark ). Urianger decides to help the Loporritz with their plans for a while G'raha mostly speculates and conjectures, and comes up with the Elidibus plan. Thancred only cares about Ryne, and Estinien just wants things to stab.

Who, besides Krile, was "following Hydaelyn"? Hell, as I said, it was even repeated several times that they couldn't even figure out what she wanted.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Compare that to how the ascians and Zodiark are treated and yeah…. It really isn’t reaching too far.

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Again, Zodiark was already screwed by the time we could have any meaningful interaction with him. Hell, he's not even treated as a villain in the end.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

It’s painfully obvious that they retconned the whole suspicious of Hydaelyn thing. I mean if you want a better example, when we have the choice to bring up hydaelyn’s lies to the watcher, he simply says yeah she lied, and then that’s completely handwaved and he goes off on another tangent.

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They didn't "retcon" it. They tried to negate it. You can literally start the expansion telling Hydaelyn you don't trust her, and the Scions (esp. Y'shtola) repeatedly bring up how suspicious they are of her plans. It isn't until the WOL goes to Elpis and becomes besties with Venat that the Scions stop suspecting her. And yes, THAT is definitely a valid fault of the story. As I said, I would have loved to have told Venat to drop her entire plan and tell the Convocation the truth.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Meanwhile how many storylines have we had now that revolved solely around “ascian bad and ebul!”

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I mean, they were gleefully scheming to eliminate "lesser" races. Though they were victims before and during the Sundering, it's also a fact that they turned into cackling, genocidal madmen over the millennia. The Ancients are basically different people from the Ascians, including the Unsunderd. Even Elidibus, prior to ShB, was only marginally different. Emet-Selch is really the gold standard for Ascians, but he was an exception and not a rule.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

As if the fact that Venat sundering Azem, her protege, wasn't bad enough, she spares Emet, then knowingly pits the two against each other in a fight to the death. Once again, why in TF would I trust the person not only responsible for ending my original incarnation by splitting my soul asunder, but knowingly guiding me to the point that I had to kill one of the people who was dearest to me (and vice versa)? Frankly, on a psychological level, it's worse than any other antagonist in the game has done.

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As far as we know, Venat did none of that. We're never told how the Unsundered survived the sundering, but we're never told it was a deliberate choice by her.

Likewise, Emet-Selch is the one who wanted to kill you. In fact, Emet-Selch flat out says at one point that he doesn't care about the lives of even Sundered Ascians because if one of them dies, they can just hop to a reflection and look for a different one. Venat is to blame for the sundering in the first place, but don't make excuses for Emet-Selch and the other Ascians. They did what they thought was right, but they still had nothing but contempt for sundered lives.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

As far as we know, Venat did none of that. We're never told how the Unsundered survived the sundering, but we're never told it was a deliberate choice by her.

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LL Q&A @ 3:41:25 - How did the unsundered escape being sundered?

Venat let Emet live on purpose. He happened to be with Lahabrea and Elidibus at the time and helped each other escape through a "crack" into the rift.

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Likewise, Emet-Selch is the one who wanted to kill you.

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Well, he had his chance and didn't take it instead choosing to befriend and journey with us. It wasn't until the WoL failed to contain the light aether of all the Lightwardens, something that would've been inconsequential to the Ancients, that he became disappointed. There's an interview with Yoshi-P about this somewhere too, about how Emet wanted to believe we were Azem but our failure made him think he was mistaken. It's part of why when we merge with Ardbert and he sees the shade of Azem he's still in denial. At that point, however, we had become the aggressors. Believe me, I would've loved to have had the option to sit and talk, but the game said I had to throw down. :P

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

LL Q&A @ 3:41:25 - How did the unsundered escape being sundered?

Venat let Emet live on purpose. He happened to be with Lahabrea and Elidibus at the time and helped each other escape through a "crack" into the rift.

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Got it. Well, good to have clarification on that, assuming they don't change their minds again. I accept that I was wrong, though.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Well, he had his chance and didn't take it instead choosing to befriend and journey with us. It wasn't until the WoL failed to contain the light aether of all the Lightwardens, something that would've been inconsequential to the Ancients, that he became disappointed. There's an interview with Yoshi-P about this somewhere too, about how Emet wanted to believe we were Azem but our failure made him think he was mistaken. It's part of why when we merge with Ardbert and he sees the shade of Azem he's still in denial. At that point, however, we had become the aggressors. Believe me, I would've loved to have had the option to sit and talk, but the game said I had to throw down. :P

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Yeah, my but my basic point was that Emet made his choices. The only reason he chooses to be civil with the WOL is because he thinks there's something unique about them that might A) prove that further Rejoinings aren't necessary or B) let the WOL remember their time as friends and join his side. I personally believe that even if he didn't care about killing other "Sundered" Ascians, he probably would have made an exception for Azem and fought to protect them no matter what. But, his cruelty and contempt for everyone else was still his own doing. (Which is, of course, what makes him such a compelling antagonist.)

If we had gone with the option of helping them defeat the Final Days for good and allow their society to keep surviving then our ability to go back to Elpis and do fates would’ve made far more sense than it does now. After going back there to help them, we return to the tower and then, on our way out, we watch 12k years proceed in hyper speed until the new timeline is back up to speed parallel to ours. Thanks to the reverse-engineered powers of Omega we now have the ability to travel space-time and hop timelines, giving us access to Elpis as a zone that looks mildly different than it did during its msq arc. I feel it wouldn’t look too too different because 12k years isn’t that long for the ancients, maybe a few new structures here and there.

That would’ve also made for huge potential for an emotional moment with Emet when we contact his soul somehow. He’d get a chance to see his world, and a version of himself, all in one piece living a better future.

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Originally Posted by anhaato

If we had gone with the option of helping them defeat the Final Days for good and allow their society to keep surviving then our ability to go back to Elpis and do fates would’ve made far more sense than it does now. After going back there to help them, we return to the tower and then, on our way out, we watch 12k years proceed in hyper speed until the new timeline is back up to speed parallel to ours. Thanks to the reverse-engineered powers of Omega we now have the ability to travel space-time and hop timelines, giving us access to Elpis as a zone that looks mildly different than it did during its msq arc. I feel it wouldn’t look too too different because 12k years isn’t that long for the ancients, maybe a few new structures here and there.

That would’ve also made for huge potential for an emotional moment with Emet when we contact his soul somehow. He’d get a chance to see his world, and a version of himself, all in one piece living a better future.

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Agreed, it'd make much more sense.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

LL Q&A @ 3:41:25 - How did the unsundered escape being sundered?

Venat let Emet live on purpose. He happened to be with Lahabrea and Elidibus at the time and helped each other escape through a "crack" into the rift.



Well, he had his chance and didn't take it instead choosing to befriend and journey with us. It wasn't until the WoL failed to contain the light aether of all the Lightwardens, something that would've been inconsequential to the Ancients, that he became disappointed. There's an interview with Yoshi-P about this somewhere too, about how Emet wanted to believe we were Azem but our failure made him think he was mistaken. It's part of why when we merge with Ardbert and he sees the shade of Azem he's still in denial. At that point, however, we had become the aggressors. Believe me, I would've loved to have had the option to sit and talk, but the game said I had to throw down. :P

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Yeah, it's this one.