Black Mage

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Originally Posted by NovaUltimatum

However we still don't know how the new raids are designed yet. For all we know, we could be getting all sorts of forced mechanics insisting on magic or AoE damage.

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No. That's not true. We know that one part of the raid is going to be aoe centric. It's most likely going to be one of the lower tiers. Therefore, it's not going to make BLM or SMN meta. It's going to make SMN niche, and BLM will remain the same.

Between the changes to Firestarter, Thundercloud, and Transpose, black mages should basically never lose Enochian ever and have an easier time staying in rotation. Aetherial Manipulation, at least in my opinion, was supposed to be the main dodging move all along, so the new ten-second recast is great. Fire IV's change is welcome, even if it's not as much as people hoped for.

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Originally Posted by Ceallach

Between the changes to Firestarter, Thundercloud, and Transpose, black mages should basically never lose Enochian ever and have an easier time staying in rotation. Aetherial Manipulation, at least in my opinion, was supposed to be the main dodging move all along, so the new ten-second recast is great. Fire IV's change is welcome, even if it's not as much as people hoped for.

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Not saying the changes aren't welcome. Just, they don't address the core issue Blm has been having for a long while. That it's simply more beneficial to the party to bring something else.

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Originally Posted by Lelila38

Not saying the changes aren't welcome. Just, they don't address the core issue Blm has been having for a long while. That it's simply more beneficial to the party to bring something else.

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Sure, I understand that raid DPS is better than personal DPS, but that's kind of the problem samurai and black mage both have: they're meant to be selfish DPS jobs. Hopefully the current changes to black mage will increase their overall DPS enough, and if not, we can always keep screaming at the devs for more buffs, especially since we still have the DRG/NIN/MCH/BRD issue.

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Originally Posted by Ceallach

Sure, I understand that raid DPS is better than personal DPS, but that's kind of the problem samurai and black mage both have: they're meant to be selfish DPS jobs. Hopefully the current changes to black mage will increase their overall DPS enough, and if not, we can always keep screaming at the devs for more buffs, especially since we still have the DRG/NIN/MCH/BRD issue.

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Unfortunately we already know it's not enough :(
It's a step in the right direction, but falls short.

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Originally Posted by Sfia

Unfortunately we already know it's not enough :(
It's a step in the right direction, but falls short.

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Imagine if SE had made these changes in 4.1 instead of now. We might actually have had a real buff this patch.

I have a question regarding the new Firestarter proc duration. Well, two actually:

1. Will there enough time to keep hold of Firestarter for a use of Transpose => Fire III at the end of the Ice cycle?
2. If yes, would it be a DPS gain to do so instead of using the proc during the Fire cycle?

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Originally Posted by Fyce

I have a question regarding the new Firestarter proc duration. Well, two actually:

1. Will there enough time to keep hold of Firestarter for a use of Transpose => Fire III at the end of the Ice cycle?
2. If yes, would it be a DPS gain to do so instead of using the proc during the Fire cycle?

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At first I thought, na this is just silly, this wouldn't be a potency gain at all, nor would it work. But, If you do a 3 x F4, F1, 3 x F4 into B3, B4, T3, Foul. You have roughly ~.35s to get the Firestarter off, assuming you have the highest current SpS tier this patch. In my mind, the chance of pulling that off consistently without clipping or anything at all, seems unlikely. But if you could pull it off, it would be a very tiny potency gain, roughly .5 PPS. Which adds up, but the problem with this is it is rng based most of the time since 1/3 of all sharpcasts lines up with convert. And even so, it is almost always better to sharpcast a T3 than a F1.

Now here is the part I was hoping for, but sadly didnt turn out right with the math. Back at the start of SB, several of us discovered a slight variant to the typical rotation that involved skipping B4 and only using 5 F4s throughout. This was a decent potency gain, but it has 2 huge caveats. 1. You HAD to go into the rotation with full MP, meaning you needed to use Foul, T3P, or get a lucky mana tick right before you cast F3. This part wasn't too bad. 2. You HAD to have a Foul, T3P, or get a lucky mana tick after you cast B3 as well... this was a bit harder to always get lined up. Foul was really the only option. The reason you had to have T3P/Foul/get lucky mana tick, is this rotation would leave you at 480 Mana to cast B3, which left you with 120 Mana to start casting spells in UI phase, i.e. Foul or T3P... or just get lucky with a fast mana tick.

Now the firestarter being used I thought would save enough mana to actually cast B4 right after B3, which is the cheapest spell we still want to cast that isn't free. Sadly, if you replace F3 with Firestarter, you are left with 1080 mana to cast B3, leaving you at 720, which is slightly too low to cast B4 at 960.

In conclusion, with enough SpS, this might be worth it in the next patch, but the increase in damage is fairly low.

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Originally Posted by RyeMinx

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That completly answers all of the underlying questions I had, especially regarding mana ticks for that old trick I heard about but never really looked at. My base thoughts was that AF3 F3 + UI3 F3 normalize at 300 potency while a AF1 F3 provides 336 potency. So, while the increase isn't great, my base assumption was that a Firestarter proc would cut one GCD from the rotation and that would eventually add up.

Since I only play BLM on a casual basis, I wasn't too familiar with specific details regarding the tight execution that might result from this postulate. So thanks for clearing that up.

So I guess the conditions to get it right are quite hard to come by, and even then, won't really be worth doing. Too bad, it'd have been a nice little change in the pacing of the rotation depending on the lucky Firestarter proc. Oh well.

Thank you for the nice and dedicated answer.

Meh. They did say we would not understand the changes anyway..

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Originally Posted by popotaro

Meh. They did say we would not understand the changes anyway..

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With how they're "adjusting" Blm I keep getting the feeling, it's them who don't understand.

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Originally Posted by Lelila38

With how they're "adjusting" Blm I keep getting the feeling, it's them who don't understand.

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I know right? :(

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Originally Posted by Fyce

I have a question regarding the new Firestarter proc duration. Well, two actually:

1. Will there enough time to keep hold of Firestarter for a use of Transpose => Fire III at the end of the Ice cycle?
2. If yes, would it be a DPS gain to do so instead of using the proc during the Fire cycle?

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If you have a way to use transpose without clipping (i.e. from a Thundercloud proc), then yes, its a gain. But its clunky and bad design, much like the rest of the class

F4 had same pps as TC, but now it will be stronger. Does that mean, unless we need to move, we will always keep TC proc and use it only in umbral? Longer duration should make it possible.

Thundercloud is better because of the dot. Thunder III's Thundercloud always been and still is our best spell.

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Originally Posted by zuzu-bq

Thundercloud is better because of the dot. Thunder III's Thundercloud always been and still is our best spell.

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It certainly is, but we still don't want to waste too much of any remaining DoT on a target should we get it. The increase to 18s should allow us to at least wait until we get to Umbral to consider blasting them with the full potency, instead of wasting damage over time.

That is the idea though. The increase by 6s should've been done from the start. Since our Fire rotation was delayed by a base of 6s with Hearts (now 5.6s).

Something I think is worth pointing out is that I was wrong about something that I had been constantly throwing out whenever I was talking about the numbers for Black Mage. I apologize for my inaccuracies, but one cannot simply use 1.9x to include Enochian and Astral Fire.

As all damage buffs are multipliers, this means that the potency of Fire spells is actually Base Potency * 1.8 * 1.1. As a result, instead of the 494 and 532 potencies I had mentioned for Fire IV's old and returning potency, it's actually 515 and 554 potency respectively. To compare, Fire IV's potency was a mere 10 potency less than an unbuffed, pre 4.2 Fell Cleave (You can't leave out Deliverance, so it's 525 potency for that) and the current potency is the same as Verflare/Verholy, spell finishers for Red Mage's melee burst combo.

I mean, it's a minor mistake that mean the difference of 20 potency higher over the old estimates, but something to keep in mind. Particularly, we're not all that far from Foul's potency already regarding our basic DPS spell (In fact, 100 potency less than an un-Enochian'd Foul, 65 potency less than an Enochian'd Foul) so we shouldn't overbuff it too far in our estimates. A potency of 300 base for Fire IV is enough to be a mere 5-6 potency away from 600 total, aka 60 potency less than a fully Storm's Path and Maimed post 4.2 Fell Cleave.

My ideas for fixing BLM.
Make manawall affect the whole group for 15% instead of the BLM for 30.
Leylines gives the group a 10-15% haste for 10 Seconds on activation.
That would give them one utility CD and one group DPS boost that would synergize perfectly with trick attack, litany and chain strategen.
This would make them a asset to any group combination.
I just don't see how SE can think SAM BLM and DRK are fine bringing nothing to the group.
Bringing this classes literally hurts your group.

Time for me to weigh in.


These changes that we are getting today reflect a much deeper problem than "meta" or BLM issues, they reflect that the developer team is almost entirely out of sync with the playerbase's view for the game. WAR got the overhaul that literally no one asked for (WARs only wanted a small single target damage increase and slightly less clunky beast gauge), while DRK (which has been problematic since 4.0 proper) received virtually nothing. And now MNK, which by and large was already doing almost as much DAMAGE as SAM (which is to say nothing of its playability which everyone did in fact complain about and I can relate to that) is getting a pretty significant buff, particularly in the form of faster-built GL3 and benefiting from its own Brotherhood.

It is apparent that some kind of class-correspondence with leading/trusted is in order to even out this issue. All player "requests and ideas" should not be blindly implemented, but the disconnect lies where the developer team's "vision" directly clashes with the playerbase's idea of how jobs function based on their crunching. Side note: Remember this moment whenever someone says "they never overhaul classes mid-expansion, so don't bother suggesting it". This is proof right here that they absolutely do.



This is painfully obvious in that SE does not understand the value of uptime vs "clipping" on casters (or BLM, at least), getting finally to the BLM changes. The Aetherial Manipulation change is welcome and desirable (particularly if Sigmascape is very movement intensive), but without a proc with which to weave it, you are still back to square one with the damage loss. The increased proc timer is helpful, but without actually increasing the procs obtained, chances to weave are still very small, and clipping is basically the only option. This is where the damage is lost.


Some 100 pages back I predicted that SE would do the foolish thing and just toss 20 potency back on Fire IV and call it a day, and here we are, living it. Meanwhile, other jobs (WAR currently, MCH previously, even SMN) get complete overhauls. I suppose this is our reward (punishment?) for being "YoshiP's pet class", so please kindly remind anyone of this the next time they try to say "BLM will never be bad".




Dear Square Enix,

At least consider giving Fire IV access to the Firestarter trait so we can Firestart and weave when necessary (and potentially not need to cast Fire I at level flipping 70 like scrubs). Further, get the hell RID of Transpose at level 70 (for crying out loud) and give us the Freeze change that we've been suggesting (BEGGING for) for four and a half years. Even with your AOE nerfs to SMN, it will still be the strongest AOE damage by a large margin, and if your goal is still "raw DPS no utility", then BLM deserves to reflect that with AOE damage as well. Period.

"But a proper buff to Freeze will make BLM aoe damage broken!" I can hear you say. And to that all I have to say is....

https://i.imgur.com/vB9B5.gif

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Originally Posted by Llugen

being "YoshiP's pet class", so please kindly remind anyone of this the next time they try to say "BLM will never be bad".

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https://media.giphy.com/media/xT8qBg...fe6c/giphy.gif

Reality check: Blm isn't bad and it never was.

Its just not the best one atm and that is what really pisses you off – two absolutely different points. sry.

All classes are good but some are more good than others

(cit.)

Starting to feel like Warframe. Got shit that does stuff and shit that does stuff the other shit does but better. >_>

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Originally Posted by Neela

https://media.giphy.com/media/xT8qBg...fe6c/giphy.gif

Reality check: Blm isn't bad and it never was.

Its just not the best one atm and that is what really pisses you off – two absolutely different points. sry.

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As far as I'm concerned, they define the class as "raw damage no utility" and yet it does less total damage than jobs that are "high damage some utility" such as SMN (and more than likely now MNK), both single target and AOE. See also: bad. Plain and simple.

I wouldn't be angry about it "not being the best" if they weren't trying to tell me that it's supposed to be "the best". That shouldn't be complicated, I don't think. More simply put, it's the fact that it does not function as advertised that is the MOST legitimate frustration, proc numbers/synergy/movement capability/clipping aside. If you can't understand this, then I don't know what to tell you, to be honest.

Let's face it SE have no clue how to balance, history of the game shows this has been the case forever.
Not just casters either, back in ARR a good portion of it Drg was in a bad state until around a little after coil was out if memory serves as by the end they had become one if not the highest dps.
Balance for them always seems to nerf one job and "buff" the other
Maybe just maybe they should seek out players to do testing, etc...

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Originally Posted by Llugen

I wouldn't be angry about it "not being the best" if they weren't trying to tell me that it's supposed to be "the best". That shouldn't be complicated, I don't think. If you can't understand this, then I don't know what to tell you, to be honest.

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we are not talking about utility and not about comparison - we talk about Blm being bad at all and that actually isn't true. that part that I quoted is just not true, thats what im all about. so: "If you can't understand this, then I don't know what to tell you –cause to be honest you totally missed the point. See also: bad. Plain and simple."

BLM isn't bad. But it isn't top DPS unless you bring your A game rotation and memorized an entire fight to the letter all to be but 10-30? PPS above the other casters who aren't worried about positioning(since they can move around freely) and bring utility as well.

And they made it easier to manage your 2 procs and gave you more warps. So all in all QoL stuff. Doesn't really solve BLM's issues but it's something I guess.

a "bad" class, is a class that has issues getting in PFs or statics..., that was the case pre 4.2 for blm

... and a "bad" class, can also play "clunky" or / and be "not rewarding"... (last can be subjectiv)

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Originally Posted by Neela

we are not talking about utility and not about comparison - we talk about Blm being bad at all and that actually isn't true. that part that I quoted is just not true, thats what im all about. so: "If you can't understand this, then I don't know what to tell you –cause to be honest you totally missed the point. See also: bad. Plain and simple."

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You are incorrect. BLM is bad, there is no reason to bring one and it is inferior to every other class in Progression and inferior to all but one class in Farm/Speedruns.

And that is ignoring the clunky state of the class.

Maybe you should read your italics passage back to yourself.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

BLM isn't bad. But it isn't top DPS unless you bring your A game rotation and memorized an entire fight to the letter all to be but 10-30? PPS above the other casters who aren't worried about positioning(since they can move around freely) and bring utility as well.

And they made it easier to manage your 2 procs and gave you more warps. So all in all QoL stuff. Doesn't really solve BLM's issues but it's something I guess.

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If you think the proc management and AM changes are what make the class not bad, then you have absolutely no clue how to play Black Mage to a high level.

After being able to play it a bit, the only impactful change is Thundercloud's duration, but even that is mostly rendered null and avoid on multiple proc cases.

Black Mage is the textbook definition of bad, it takes a lot of effort to master (see the difference between low percentile BLMs and high percentile BLMs) but once you do you don't have any meaningful reward, it brings nothing any other class can't and is alongside SAM a meme job, Soul of the Black Mage and Soul of Samurai are the undisputed WiS (worst in slot) of the soulstone slot.

eventhough the blm changes were not enough (especially after buffing mnk so much, some PFs dont even bother with a caster spot.. or its still smn for farm PFs ... and smn / rdm for prog PFs)

BUT blm has imo never been more fun to play, .. you can actually now "time" thos procs for more dps or for mechanics..., especially the thunder procs .. and are not constantly getting angry at clipping the procs .. or haveing to worry it will drop of so soon (can have your eyes on other things and not like "oh a proc!?, eyes glued to the remaing timer", . since we have more wayroom now)

even if it still bugs the fvck out if me, that blm are still the least desirable dps of all, ... making it still hard to get in PFs..

I'm à bit surprised that people keep talking about BLM ban from pf. Since sb I coudl count on 1h the number of time BLM was actively banned from a group, and those were usually Learning in group month after the boss release (like BLM on shin when most people are 335+ilv), which was laughable.

Is it that omnipresent in the US or I've just been lucky for 2 patches

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

I'm à bit surprised that people keep talking about BLM ban from pf. Since sb I coudl count on 1h the number of time BLM was actively banned from a group, and those were usually Learning in group month after the boss release (like BLM on shin when most people are 335+ilv), which was laughable.

Is it that omnipresent in the US or I've just been lucky for 2 patches

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It's not omnipresent, but it's present enough to be noticeable. It isn't that people are saying "NO black mages", it's more that when they want a caster, they'll usually slot for Summoner or Red mage instead.

From my experience I'd say the majority of groups are fine to join as a BLM but you do come across somewhat frequently groups where you cant join because the dps slots available are literally any dps job but BLM or they want one caster only (which is usually filled by a RDM/SMN). Or its the "meta" jobs only for speed / farm runs etc. For the most part the effects of said exclusion is that it just adds time to whatever activity you want to do. If you wait around for a while you can usually find a group.

On top of that you can get a few snide remarks from joining some groups where people are disappointed that its a blm who joined but those are fairly rare.

I dont come across many PF BLM's so I cant say the reputation is deserved or not but it is what it is.

All one had to do is look at the pf groups sb launch (even now as well) and you still see no slots for blm in groups.
This is not all mind you but i would say a fair amount.
The smn "nerf" and blm "buff" has not seemed to changed things at all

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Originally Posted by Maero

All one had to do is look at the pf groups sb launch (even now as well) and you still see no slots for blm in groups.
This is not all mind you but i would say a fair amount.
The smn "nerf" and blm "buff" has not seemed to changed things at all

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Just take a look at recruitment discords too.

anyone compile a BiS list yet?

not bis, but at one point had 2085 spellspeed without food (Byakko weapon) ...and it felt great! (even with that amount could do a full rota with foul)..., felt like, like what blm are suposed to feel like..

but as usal, SE will castrate us and make sure our SS drops to the ca. mid 1.8k max 1.95k with food again (instead of giving us the best or near best SS feeling we can get..)

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Originally Posted by IllyriaKnotfred

anyone compile a BiS list yet?

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Without an actual sim, the BiS won't be known for sure. Its also composition and fight dependent.

Besides, its WAY too early to think about BiS. Work on learning fights and upgrading your ilevel where you can - prioritising melds on either Vit > Crit > SS or Vit > SS > Crit. I'm going to be doing the latter.