Please implement something to teach players how to play

It's so hard to press buttons in a generally correct order! How dare you elitist!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caurcas

It's so hard to press buttons in a generally correct order! How dare you elitist!

---

Not hard. Just some people don't need to or care. It does come off as elitist asking them to play better in content that does not require and developers who openly are ok with them just having fun. It is kinda a know your place sorta thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wavaryen

Not hard. Just some people don't need to or care. It does come off as elitist asking them to play better in content that does not require and developers who openly are ok with them just having fun. It is kinda a know your place sorta thing.

---

If only I could be so grossly self centered and tone deaf.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caurcas

If only I could be so grossly self centered and tone deaf.

---

You are doing a good job so far. Keep at it. You will achieve it.


In all serious though, You have content that these people don't play in. Leave the content they enjoy alone. What is wrong with you all?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rinhi

that's like... almost double the time an average DF run takes? even with a no DPS healer it shouldn't take that long

---

Like I said. At most. MOST of the time it's less. So being that 20 minutes is an extreme, then it can be said that as long as people are pushing some buttons and tanking at least one pack at a time, it's not like people are suffering through a full timer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Interesting strawman, but I'll admit to the low-hanging fruit there.

---

look.. when you say things like "other games, even other MMO's" it sounds like you're making comparisons.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

In what you've quoted, I have not compared XIV to other MMOs, or even other games generally. I compared how we treat the concept of a difficulty curve and in-game situated learning. Anywhere else, its the basis for a good game. Here, it's as often treated as satanic.

---

The problem isn't that the game gets harder or that people even have a problem with "endgame" being harder though.. the problem seems to be that people don't want ANYONE else to get to that point without requiring them to learn a "standard". The difficulty curve exists and is rewarded in general with faster runs and in certain instances unique loot or opportunities. It's not like the actual progression and layering of elements in the game doesn't have a good ramp up, though admittedly there are some bumps in between say, extreme and normal, but again.. extreme (or savage/ultimatewhatever) content IS that gated content where you need to know the fight to pass in general. I don't think one person here has said that they expect to flop their weight on 7 other people in that content and they deserve a carry or has said that people should do that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

"The endgame experience have more going on than midgame" or "cumulative learning" or "gradually increasing complexity/difficulty" are not new or controversial concepts.

Nor is it is new or controversial to want not to create systems of incentives that will split your playerbase in an increasingly irredeemable fashion, let alone towards some sort of poorly understood quasi-class warfare -- "casuals" vs. "hardcore" who nonetheless overlap, individual to individual, across every criteria] -- as we have here.

---

Not it isn't.. I don't think anyone said that it doesnt?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Consider: How much of the game is actually presented attractively to a given player, be they the mythical Conny Casual, Eddie Elite, or anyone in between? What does the game do to draw in someone who might not be inherently interested in the combat aspects (which are still some 90% of the game's content, no matter how you cut it)? What does it do to actually let highly anxious people step over the hurdle to enter Extreme trials or Savage, if they want that level of depth, but want to be and feel prepared (besides yet again telling the community to make up the difference on their own)?

---

Pretty much every single "normal" fight trains you in the basic telegraphs as you progress. Once you get into savages those elements are all jammed together, sometimes with new twists you have to figure out but as death has no real particular punishments they are easily hashed out with trial and error and or actually talking to the other players who IN GENERAL don't have a problem with at least guiding someone towards a good resource if not outright being the resource themselves

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Initially, there's little. HoN is a boon, but a small one, because it's neither directly situated nor does it do much to actually draw players' interests. You go if you have that interest. And if you've no such interest despite that its information would have been useful to you, the game, by readies the rut for you. Follow it to have access only to an increasingly narrow span of the game's combat content, replacing such with further social conflict.

---

It's location near the sastasha entrance and I believe slight sidequest line (it has been a hot minute since I've done it) to seek it out is plenty enough for people who are willing to learn or just curious about what that weird icon on the map is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

For the later gaps, though, there's nothing. You can see all the mechanics symbols likely to be repurposed, but unless the concepts and habits necessary for that later content is centered upon and drawn attention to, however unintrusively, it will click for some --for whom Savage will be presented about as attractively as its sum of actual mechanics, novelty, etc., can be to that individual-- and not for others -- for whom that content will not be given a remotely attractive view.

So, yes, it does have much to do with inclusivity, in the same way that good pedagogical or instructional practices anywhere, even if not necessary for anyone and everyone, still benefit the given community, especially if it's often grouped as one.

---

So.. you want advertising to pay attention to how to play the game? That's what I'm getting.. but not what other people are posting though.. Other people are suggesting hard gated roadblocks to keep people out of their high level runs and content.

So while it' be nice if people were invited, guided, and included into the "difficult" content, this should not make it so people who never would and have no interest in the first place should have to meet standards, since this would likely kill their interest in the game entirely.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wavaryen

Leave the content they enjoy alone. What is wrong with you all?

---

Because we are incentivized to do so, be it by exp, currencies, the MSQ, unlocks, or progress through a relic for example. I've always taken an issue with the lack of some sort of MMR specifically for this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wavaryen

You are doing a good job so far. Keep at it. You will achieve it.


In all serious though, You have content that these people don't play in. Leave the content they enjoy alone. What is wrong with you all?

---

Because it is content for us as well. We have to run expert roulette, we have to run 24 mans and their associated roulette, and we have to run raid roulette and do normal modes as well. It's also a matter of benefit, as groups benefit from "elitist" button presser as opposed to the net drain that is the average non-button pressing "leech".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Krotoan

So.. you want advertising to pay attention to how to play the game? That's what I'm getting.. but not what other people are posting though.. Other people are suggesting hard gated roadblocks to keep people out of their high level runs and content.

So while it' be nice if people were invited, guided, and included into the "difficult" content, this should not make it so people who never would and have no interest in the first place should have to meet standards, since this would likely kill their interest in the game entirely.

---

That is the part that rubs me the wrong way about this. I gave examples of why the convenience of DF is balance around these sort of players. That push people that wants a higher chance of doing dungeons. To be social and build a network. But even with that logic aside. Asking people who are having fun, who only really don't do end game stuff and just do DF. That is super easy for us. It is tough for some of them! I know shocking right? making it even harder, and teaching them is just going to make them not do it. And I think that is what some of the people here want, either get better or stay out of DF. Making it not fun for them anymore.


Let "bad" players enjoy the darn game also.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caurcas

Because it is content for us as well. We have to run expert roulette, we have to run 24 mans and their associated roulette, and we have to run raid roulette and do normal modes as well. It's also a matter of benefit, as groups benefit from "elitist" button presser as opposed to the net drain that is the average non-button pressing "leech".

---

Well the leeches don't need you to get the dungeon done. So at the end of the day. Run the roulette and understand that you are playing with people like that. it is for them just as much as for you. The content is design with them in mind, So asking them to meet your standards when the game does not require them or ask them to do it is very much not required or needed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wavaryen

In all serious though, You have content that these people don't play in. Leave the content they enjoy alone. What is wrong with you all?

---

Guess I'm an elitist for expecting people to know how to push more than 2-3 buttons.

If the game was designed for jobs to only have 2-3 buttons then why do we have all these extras? From what I can gleam this game is intended for you to make use of no less than 3/4 of the actions.

If you wanna be lazy in dungeons stick to trusts. But oh wait, that takes too much effort to level them. Guess you'll be stuck risking kicks for holding groups back. Enjoy not getting dungeon completion.