What makes WHM special? Nothing anymore.

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Originally Posted by GideonHighmourn

If your entire argument as to why WHM "doesn't have an identity" is based around the fact that One-Hand/Shield combo is no longer a thing, I'll be done from this point forward; it's a completely pointless discussion, and holds no merit on how WHM actually performs or what it's identity is.

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It's not the entire argument, it's part of it. Another aspect would be the giving away of specific traited buffs that were WHM territory, another would be the presence of a new healer class that claims to be all things to all people and just got a pretty significant buff. However since I don't have AST leveled at all, I can hardly argue specifics about their skill set - so I don't. I understand the reaons given for changing the traited buffs, but I will happily argue that WHM should still be able to cast more potent versions of these two buffs than Paladins, Scholars or Astrologians.

Whether or not you feel that wand/shield is "no longer a thing" is *your* opinion. Like the changes to the buffs, SE has not given any further support to wands/shields since the last ilvl 100 wand was put in the game. But just like discussing the traited buffs, the fact that SE has omitted any further wand/shield gear for CNJ/WHM doesn't mean that I am somehow barred from wanting it.

How WHM performs is part of it's identity, but identity is something that is a feeling that people get when they play the job, and it differs from person to person. Constantly arguing that there is no change or loss of identity because of a long theory-crafting numerical analysis of skills misses the mark. By doing that you are trying to force your point of view that the performance of the job in content is the only thing that matters, and anything else is redundant or fluff and beneath consideration.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Scholar and WHM leveled to 50 quite nicely in ARR with their relics to boot, so yeah...whatever.

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RichardButte is not pointing this out to discredit the opinions of those who have not experienced current endgame but rather to illustrate how different healing is now compared to 2.x. You are quite literally comparing the healing classes in two different games.

I leveled ast first and felt ast was perfectly fine at 60 because I was thinking about how it would play in content like T13. Once I set out to level my other two healing jobs by level 52 both of them they outclassed my level 60 ast because of the incoming buffs they added to their toolkit changing my opinion about the viability of ast.

I appreciate his tone was dismissive, but putting that aside, there is a reason his perspective keeps being brought up in this discussion.

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Originally Posted by Proteus6

But the AST's HoT actually comes with a front loaded heal (which the WHM does not), so just comparing the HoT portion is misleading. They are equivalent really, and your comparison doesn't account for it.

Does the WHM really have a better bubble? The AST's has both damage reduction and a linger HoT that does not require standing in the bubble. That seems more flexible from a raid perspective to me.

Does the WHM really have better mana recovery? The AST can add an additional 5 seconds onto their LA, no? I don't know if this balances out the recovery of Assize, but also in addition to Ewer? I wouldn't say it's a surefire win, and someone else in this thread clearly stated that in identical encounters, they had better mana management with their AST over their WHM.

I understand that the WHM does have better range and slightly better cooldowns. I am still trying to figure out which class to take into end game, but I think your list was clearly one-sided and not helpful, other than as a rhetorical bludgeon perhaps.

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Asylum generally is more applicable and less of a hassle to use. Collective unconscious only works better when you get to milk the damage reduction portion but don't need to actually put up additional heals in the meantime (because the channeling ruins that of course), so basically just those once in a while single, big raid damage attacks really. At least that's what I think after using both of them.

Mp recovery wise, yeah, I'd put whm ahead there too. Even though ast spells are overall cheaper, whm just ends up recovering more mp I find ( in practice). You have to account for freecures, and occasionally cheaper medicas (not that you'd notice at the time) and if we really stretch it, that once in a blue moon moment where you get to make use of the half price cure 3. Plus, since assize gives back 10% of your mp pool, it'll continue to give higher returns as gear levels rise. You may point to ewer as ast's lucky break with mp, but whm also has those lucky mp breaks. Someone should math out a comparison of ewer vs freecure.

It may not be what some want to hear, but I think whm's thing is pretty much just having big heals. CD's real big, AoE''s real big, heals real big, everything real big.
Sorry, couldn't resist

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Originally Posted by PetiteMalFleur

...to illustrate how different healing is now compared to 2.x. You are quite literally comparing the healing classes in two different games.

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This right here is a problem for SE to figure out. Making changes to the existing jobs in ARR going forward into HW that are significant enough that people can say "You are quite literally comparing the healing classes in two different games." goes to the heart of the issue regarding identity. Players built up their character and expectation in ARR and then along comes HW and things change significantly. Which leads to people feeling that the identity has changed, or is lacking.

I understand the need to balance existing classes/jobs when adding new ones. However making changes that alter the way something feels to players, risks some players feeling that something has been changed and/or lost. But, no amount of argument about how the new skills make up for it because they are awesome will alter the fact that some players feel as they do.

My problem with the line of argument in this topic is that it has come down to people throwing skill definitions and numbers around as the only things that matter, and then dismissing anything else as irrelevant because it's not part of that numbers game. But, those aren't the only things that matter, they are simply the most tangible things that people can use as 'weapons' in an argument. I think I will just have to recognize that no matter what I say or how many times I say it, discussion about the identity of player classes/jobs in this game will always devolve into competitive theory-crafting, and dismissal of everything else as redundant fluff.

In which case, perhaps further input from myself is redundant, or as someone called it further up this topic "pointless".

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Originally Posted by Mutemutt

It may not be what some want to hear, but I think whm's thing is pretty much just having big heals. CD's real big, AoE''s real big, heals real big, everything real big.
Sorry, couldn't resist

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You forgot the BIG stick...
Sorry, I couldn't resist either

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

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No one wants to understand this. They seem only to care about how "competitive" a healer is. The matter for me is the feeling of the class. I never demanded potency increase or any broken thing. To be honest, the only thing I demanded here was an added effect to Stone II, to not be completely useless spell after lv. 54 and a change to Enhanced Medica.

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

No one wants to understand this. They seem only to care about how "competitive" a healer is. The matter for me is the feeling of the class. I never demanded potency increase or any broken thing. To be honest, the only thing I demanded here was an added effect to Stone II, to not be completely useless spell after lv. 54 and a change to Enhanced Medica.

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But... literally nothing changed for WHMs in 3.07. There was no nerf. They weren't decreased in any way. AST was given a buff because they not only felt weaker than WHM and SCH, the numbers supported the feeling. I guarantee you, SE wouldn't have made those changes if they hadn't pored over terabytes of combat metrics. So, if you couple "ASTs feel underpowered" with "the data supports their feeling", they're going to make that change.

I think a problem I see is where WHMs feel that Proshell was "taken" from them. It wasn't. It was rolled into the baseline Protect ability. Stoneskin's mitigation buff was, in fact, taken away in 3.0, but they got a cast time buff on it. I could see getting up in arms if Galvanize was given a 30 minute duration, or Stoneskin's duration was reduced to 30 seconds, but neither of those things should happen if the designers are doing the right thing. Those two changes were made so that a WHM in the party wasn't mandatory. Before, a two-SCH party was passable and fine for DF content, but you'd be insane not to have a WHM/SCH combo in your group because of the way the two complement each other. If anything, an AST could now more easily replace a SCH.

Adding that effect to Stone II and giving Enhanced Medica a buff? Sure, why not, that sounds fine. It'd be nice for Stone II not to be completely useless post-54, I'll totally agree with you there.

Going back to a question I had earlier though... what do you think would be good to make a WHM feel unique, if "stronger heals" wasn't part of the picture. In other words, assume that the number one requirement is "healing power parity" between all three jobs, because their job should be "heals the party". What kind of interesting fluff should WHM have that would set them apart? What would make them "feel" different?

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Originally Posted by EinherjarLucian

What would make them "feel" different?

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i think a potency increase in dirunal and removing the HoTs from ast would give the whm the identity as HoT healer back.

ast is already the instant healer, why do he need hots? :x

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

No one wants to understand this. They seem only to care about how "competitive" a healer is. The matter for me is the feeling of the class. I never demanded potency increase or any broken thing. To be honest, the only thing I demanded here was an added effect to Stone II, to not be completely useless spell after lv. 54 and a change to Enhanced Medica.

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So? stone 2 became outdated, You don't even really use stone 1 unless you need the heavy effect. This is how leveling works, some skills may replace others. You don't see SMNs using emerald carbuncle after gettiing gardua or topaz after getting titan, (they have to take off gem, but even if they could, still wouldn't) they are simply inferior to thieir predecessors.

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Originally Posted by Tint

i think a potency increase in dirunal and removing the HoTs from ast would give the whm the identity as HoT healer back.

ast is already the instant healer, why do he need hots? :x

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Again: Potency changes are off the table, here. What can be added to WHM, or changed about WHM, that would make it more "unique" and "special"? All healing jobs have HoTs, even SCH. Let's add an additional rule to this thought-exercise, "suggestions to remove something from another job are also off the table".

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Originally Posted by EinherjarLucian

Again: Potency changes are off the table, here. What can be added to WHM, or changed about WHM, that would make it more "unique" and "special"? All healing jobs have HoTs, even SCH. Let's add an additional rule to this thought-exercise, "suggestions to remove something from another job are also off the table".

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the problem is: one of the biggest parts of the whm identity were the hots. that's part of how do you play the class. why should whm change his identity when the new healer stole it from us? >.<

i think the whm should be the HoT healer, the ast has many instant heals and the card-buffs and the sch his fairy and the aether stacks