Dark Knight Megathread

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Originally Posted by Luizgazen

just something that came to mind about the MT OT situation on this sugestion, they could add a kardia like system were we could either generate that resource from getting hit ourselves, or select a party member to to get hit for us, so even if the DRK is off tanking he still get the resource for those big attacks

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You could add a sort of hits-taken-linking effect to leech off the MT (or an hp-linking effect to send them your would-be overhealing), but does that not feel... gimmicky, especially if it were made role-wide? At that point, the theme isn't "Your would-be damage empowers me!" but rather just "I charge my aetherodisk with each strike against whomever I've set it to." I could see that working for someone themed around wanting to exploit flat hits against one's party, a sort of retributive damage soft-tank (a Kineticist mage-tank or a dual-wielding Judge, for instance), but otherwise it feels pretty outside the scope of what typically makes for a tank in this game.

But, yes, there is a potential problem in/with OT value that we'd need to resolve. I'd just rather deal with that instead by making MTing itself more eventful and thereby limited (less able to just chug on forever short of massive vulnerability debuffs).

Siphon tanks' excessive passive mitigation towards their maximal offensive throughput. Give them (back) more ways to trade damage for survivability and make finding a greatest (effective) sum between the two a serious part of tank optimization. Finally, just give bosses and mobs enough damage (or, damage events / frequency of meaningful attacks) that a single tank cannot deal with it all. (More specifically, it should cost the party as much in healer damage to solo-tank even in a fight without forced swaps or boss-splits as in trading a DPS for a second tank.) Give us more reason to track our co-tanks' CDs and swap in and out instead of relying just on extreme vulnerability debuffs to force in a second tank in certain fights. OTs then become more valuable, by virtue of their being more reliably necessary in swapping in for their co-tanks survival, AND the tanking itself ends up more interesting.

Good points of critique, thanks for the thoughtful response. Let me break it down how I see it:

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

So, ignoring that Spell/Rune Blade/Fencer or Mage Knight has been a separate job within the FF series for decades, even existing in entries alongside Dark Knight (such as 11), and it could probably be introduced to 14 as a separate job...

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Okay, but... it's not here now... and I'm not sure how much bandwidth they could squeeze out of it at this point, given everything FFXIV already has:

Dark Knight has locked down Greatswords, Red Mage has locked down Rapiers...

And then the game's designers also seem to view gluing things together as 'checking off' FFXIV's version of it. Like Astrologian rolling in Time Mage (and sort of Corsair, I guess?).

I don't personally mind seeing Rune Fencer / Mystic Knight / whatever pop up in FFXIV, I'm just sceptical that the designers would see it as having space.

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And that you've basically just described a Warcraft Death Knight...

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Well... not any more than saying you've described a WOW Death Knight by suggesting a Job with:

• Tank role
• Plate armor
• A greatsword instead of a shield
• Edgy dark angsty theming
• A heavy mixture of spells and spell effects rather than just melee
• An emphasis on applying personal absorb effects as part of its mitigation routine
• Swirly black, purple, and red spell effects everywhere
• A circular, swirling red, ticking ground-targeted effect
• A cooldown that summons an undead/shadowy pet

ie, FFXIV Dark Knight kind of began its life as an FFXIV-ified Death Knight, like how Summoner began as FFXIV's attempt to copy WOW Warlock.

But anyway, that's all a bit of a digression just because it was interesting to think about.


I think I expressed my concept wrong, because in WOW the Death Knights conceptually carve actual archetypical fantasy "Runes of Power" directly into the blades and it's a whole artistic motif and stuff.

I wasn't meaning to literally suggest that, I was trying to refer to what FFXIV Dark Knight has always had: various weird symbols and sigils and runes that pop up along its blade during various spell and attack animations. It's written out in some script(s) that's definitely not Eorzean, and as far as I know, it has never been deciphered or elaborated on.

I was saying you could take that (which has always been ambiguous and poorly-explained, beyond the assumed "It looks cool"), and expand it into representing some sort of 'arcane language' that the Dark Knight is weaving or invoking when it goes into gushing-red-shadows edgelord mode.

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That doesn't particularly seem like something fitting DRK's own job history, aesthetic or playstyle?

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Maybe not after all the amputation Jobs have gotten over time, but originally, both Dark Knight quests and actions had heavy overtones of ritualism and occultism. You were implied to be dabbling in some really weird stuff by crossing the line from WOL into Dark WOL.

You know: Using MP as a melee, Dark Arts (back when it was actually a weird levitation animation with blue flames popping up around you), Dark Passenger, Blood Price, strange multicolored weapon effects that stood out as distinctly otherworldly and bizarre compared to other Jobs in HW, etc.

And again, all the weird glowing symbols and scripts popping up during various animations.

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Like it's a neat idea, but it would require creating a very complicated resource system around just such a set of abilities,

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Well, it doesn't have to be complicated. In fact, Ninja, Samurai, Dancer, and Monk all have fairly simple and straightforward "code entry" systems when you distill it down.

In a way, these types of systems are just a method of having extra GCD actions without having to make space for tracking extra cooldowns or binding extra keys.

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NIN and DNC's systems don't give much room for weaving oGCDs between their "entries" which would create even more complicated windows around DRK's own

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That's true, actually! And in fact, now that you bring it up, it's not even 'not much room', it's 'literally none'.

But those are based on fast-paced entry, which you don't necessarily need to use (as in Monk and Samurai).

And, even in Ninja and Dancer's cases, the 'code finisher' still adds extra GCD weave space: you can squeeze a weave after Ninjutsu and Dance Finishes.

But perhaps more relevantly, even the Ninja/Dancer systems necessarily divert overall design potency away from OGCDs and into GCDs in order to make them worth executing, which is a design space that Dark Knight is under pressure to explore given that it's reaching OGCD overload.

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while MNK and SAM's only work because they already have a plethora of GCDs based around such a system.

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I don't follow this one, though.

Samurai basically just glued Sen onto the combo moves it was inevitably going to have as a Melee DPS anyway, and Monk... actually also just glued Beast Chakra onto its preexisting Forms.

Beyond that, Samurai has one standard GCD that its 'codes' feed into (Iaijutsu), and one CD-GCD (Tsubame-gaeshi). Monk has one standard GCD (Masterful Blitz).

They're actually both pretty simple, if not rudimentary, systems on their own, but mixed into everything else going on in those Jobs, it still makes for reasonably strong gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Eorzean_username

Well... not any more than saying you've described a WOW Death Knight by suggesting a Job with:

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Sorry to intrude, but I think it might be worth mentioning here that Death Knight originally functioned by using, generating, and converting Blood, Frost, and Unholy runes. They formed their core build-up and pace-making / rotation-building system. Much as per...

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Originally Posted by Eorzean_username

...So, maybe some kind of "Rune Entry' system, where you can invoke Bloodsoaked Runes (or some other chuuni name) in a certain combination or order.

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Granted, that does give us a potentially semi-relevant spring-board in considering how we might use multiple types of resources together to form flexible rotations, etc., if used constantly/frequently. Of course, there are many, many other ways to go about it, too. For instance, they might work more akin to stances from which, upon activation, all or most actions (even if to varying efficiencies) fill a given rune (in term perhaps granting a spendable buffs), which would be something we haven't seen before.

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Originally Posted by Eorzean_username

Well, it doesn't have to be complicated. In fact, Ninja, Samurai, Dancer, and Monk all have fairly simple and straightforward "code entry" systems when you distill it down.

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True, but they do tend to have a decently demanding threshold for actions required before they can really situate themselves or hit a sort of 'critical mass'. While Ninjutsu, for instance, does allow for 7 different actions, it requires 4 buttons to pull that off, and ultimately 5 buttons (7 if you include Huton's implications) are drawn into that one process. Making that kind of room would probably require significant reframing of certain existing tools.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

I kinda wish they could pull a Void Knight thing from Stranger of Paradise, where you guard magic attacks and accrue power from them, which you can then use to gain MP or to do a powerful attack, with the attack getting more powerful the more powerful the attack you blocked with it.

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Void Knight's 'Runic' ability references one of my favorite abilities in the franchise. I would love to see it implemented in FFXIV. The difficulty is around how you could implement it in a way that remains faithful to the original.

This is probably easiest to do in PvP, as Celes' Runic is functionally 'Counterspell', except that you get rewarded with a bit of MP for doing so (you would probably have to leave out the bit where Runic can shut down a teammate's spells, of course). This would be particularly great if it were coupled with a Silence effect, or if it penalized the player in question with an extended recast on the ability (i.e. unable to use cancelled action for 30s).

PvE is where it gets more difficult, because you can't simply shut down a boss mechanic. It's similar in that regard to 'Reflect', which many people would love to see in game as well. You still have to allow damage through. So then we come to the issue of how we make this different from the standard %DR cooldowns. For example, if I use Runic on a raidwide, does it reduce the damage of the attack and give me some resources? If so, it's functionally just Dark Missionary with some resources attached. Could it redirect a raidwide from the party to my character and turn it into a tankbuster? It would be fun, yes, but the devs tend to be quite conservative when it comes to actions that can potentially lead to mechanics cheese. I don't know what the best answer is here. All I know is that I want to be able to do the Celes' sparkle animation and shut down some magic attacks.

The broader issue of 'should tanks be able to turn mitigation into damage' is a controversial subject. I personally really like the idea, because the main thing that differentiates tanks from melee dps right now is a few tank-specific mitigation mechanics in exchange for simpler, less interesting gameplay. I think that if timed counter-attacks after tankbusters were the standard across all tanks, then it would add something else to the gameplay. And it doesn't have to be only if you're actively tanking - every tank can apply their shielding to their co-tank, so I don't see this as a difficult thing to set up. It would be especially fun if you could stagger the boss with a timed counter-attack for properly mitigating a red arrow tankbuster, leading to a dps window. But that's by and large a systems-wide design decision that they need to settle on.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

It could, but I think that ought beg a question much like, "Do we really need a Time Mage when we have Astrologian?"

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And in most circumstances I would agree, but there is a line here where it would be plausible both if the devs were willing and if there was any way to make the two jobs distinct in a significant manner, like through having them be separate roles.
Time Mage and Geomancer bear some thematic and aesthetic overlap with Astrologian and White Mage, but if you introduce them as Casters with some supportive elements instead of full Healers (Time Mage focused on periodic effects or Geomancer focused on environmental effects and summons) and avoid touchstones of the existing jobs (AST's cards or WHM's lilies), you can have completely separated jobs.
A similar mindset was taken with introducing RPR - the job takes many thematic cues from 11's DRK (down to sharing several of the same ability names like Arcane Circle/Crest or weapons like the Death Scythe) but the fact that the two have completely separate roles and playstyles (in addition to background lore) means any overlap is superficial.

Which is a long-winded way of saying "As long as RUN isn't a tank, it could still be introduced to 14." Whether that's likely is an entirely separate matter.

But, I would also posit that there are enough untapped abilities and jobs across the FF series that it wouldn't be implausible to craft something new from it. In addition to ye olde Spellblade and Runic, you have the En-spells of yore, Ravager melee skills from 13 (plus a half-dozen other renames like Flametongue and Frostbrand), Warp techniques from 15, and all of the standard "non-classed" protagonist skills from characters like Tidus or from sibling properties like Chrono Trigger and Kingdom Hearts. All of them could be easily wrapped into a Magic Knight job which Dark Knight (and RPR, NIN or SAM for that matter) can't really tap into and RDM has left wide open. Had RPR not taken the slot for sharing DRG armor, it would have been a shoe-in.
Which... oops, is a discussion for an entirely separate thread.

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Originally Posted by Eorzean_username

• Tank role
• Plate armor
• A greatsword instead of a shield
• Edgy dark angsty theming
• A heavy mixture of spells and spell effects rather than just melee
• An emphasis on applying personal absorb effects as part of its mitigation routine
• Swirly black, purple, and red spell effects everywhere
• A circular, swirling red, ticking ground-targeted effect
• A cooldown that summons an undead/shadowy pet

ie, FFXIV Dark Knight kind of began its life as an FFXIV-ified Death Knight, like how Summoner began as FFXIV's attempt to copy WOW Warlock.

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Most of these are part-and-parcel with the Medieval Fantasy genre though: Black Knight who forgoes a shield (because that's a symbol of defending others, more a Knight in Shining Armor trope) for a giant honkin' metal stick.
The overlap begins around the introduction of black magic, but even then there's a line of distinction in how the two process their magic: Death Knights use an extremely refined system of necromancy channeled through the runes engraved in their weapons (similar to Rune Fencers, but essentially being suped-up necromancers in plate armor), Dark Knights use dark-elemental magic as a manifestation of their raw determination (essentially being black knights who also happen to have magic, an inversion of the paladin).

Give Dark Knights a refined magic system on top of all that and the line becomes extremely blurry, especially in terms of their lore -- they cease to be knights whose dark abilities are fundamentally born of tapping into their rage against an unjust system, and instead become devout practitioners of specific style of heretical witchcraft who also happen to supplement that with armor and a giant sword.
The alchemical nature of the combination system you propose would mean you are actually forced to put thought and calculation into your method of spellcasting -- which runes produce which results.
And as Shurri was alluding to, you'd kinda have to retcon it into existence as a fundamental of the identity, since such a magic system would be as significant to job identity as NIN's Mudras, AST's Cards or SMN's Egis/Trances. It would completely change the relationship you have with Fray, because he ceases to be a repressed part of you who tells you how to tap into the Abyss inside, and rather just a manifestation of some external, corruptive powers that are driving you cUh-RaAaY-zEe.

The fact that Dark Knights create glyphs when spellcasting is... sort of just an FF trope that's present in most "non-natural" magic in the game? RPRs, SMNs, SCHs, and NINs have similar glyphs in many of their abilities, while RDMs, BLMs, ASTs, SGEs and even PLDs and DRGs use geometric patterns and circles in much the same way.
"Instant Runes" trope of magic-users. Even WHM is starting to dip into that in Endwalker between Holy III and Liturgy (though theirs is mostly just filigree).

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Samurai basically just glued Sen onto the combo moves it was inevitably going to have as a Melee DPS anyway, and Monk... actually also just glued Beast Chakra onto its preexisting Forms.

Beyond that, Samurai has one standard GCD that its 'codes' feed into (Iaijutsu), and one CD-GCD (Tsubame-gaeshi). Monk has one standard GCD (Masterful Blitz).

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Right. SAM has a full combo for each one of its "codes" and two AoE combos for two more (though a PvP ability demonstrates resources in-game for a third but it's unnecessary to the job's functions), while MNK offers three different input options for each "code" that each offer varying effects for an additional layer of freeform mixing and matching. Each has 6 GCDs for combo actions, 3 more for AoE, and separated "execute code" buttons that change in up to four different forms based on the inputs.
Simple on the surface, but with interplay in mind.

By contrast, DRK has one combo of three buttons, an AoE combo of two, and then its spenders. The conceit of this very discussion is that the job doesn't have any branching combos for variation in downtime, so what you're suggesting would have to create a system where either:

1. You include actions like Unmend but the inputs are completely agnostic to the skills they're attached to, where you essentially transmute them like in Standard Step (something that MNK avoids because each of the skills has separate additional effects so your choice of inputs remains relevant), or
2. The inputs themselves are essentially irrelevant because your "organic" method of generating them (a la SAM's combos) has a fixed input due to your standard rotation having no branches. There is only ever one order for inputs.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I'm not a huge fan of the how many redundant raid buffs we have; any more than are necessary to create a buff window that we'd actually care about do nothing in terms of gameplay, because we'd already committed to those actions/considerations.

However, ShB DRG would seem to give reason, simply, for more varied buff timings (and thus more windows to manage), rather than the minimization or removal of most raid buffs.

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I'd agree with more varied buff timings but we already had that in ShB and then they moved away from it in EW, probably for balance reasons. Who knows if the same thing wouldn't eventually happen again.

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I think the biggest question we have to ask when considering raid buffs' elimination is what would replace them. The game has probably had too much pruning without clear replacement plans (or even candidates) for a long while now. Moreover, the most obvious replacements might not be all that fitting. Does DRK, for instance, really need a Fight or Flight / No Mercy of its own?

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In my ideal world raid buffs would make more room for more internal mechanics for classes to deal with, but I know that could be a pretty massive overhaul to ask for. Specifically for DRK it doesn't necessarily need to be a 60s damage up, it could also be resource gated. Or maybe DRK would be entirely fine without it. There's a lot of directions to take it

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Sorry to intrude, but I think it might be worth mentioning here that Death Knight originally functioned by using, generating, and converting Blood, Frost, and Unholy runes. They formed their core build-up and pace-making / rotation-building system. Much as per...

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No, that was not the sort of system that I suggested. What you quoted from me below it actually directly shows that.

WOW Death Knight never used an 'entry' system. Its Runes automatically regenerated over time, basically being an array of redistributable 10s cooldowns — closer to Sage Addersgall than anything else in FFXIV. And Death Knight gameplay didn't enter Runes in a sequence to create effects, it had a large set of predefined actions that put the Runes back on cooldown in different combinations, forming a flexible timegate.

I am beginning to regret using the word "Rune", because apparently it's a trigger word for World of Warcraft associations, when I was simply referring to 'archetypical arcane fantasy symbols with linguistic and magical meaning'... not evoking one specific franchise that happened to depict a class that uses runes, any more than it's evoking Warhammer Runepriest. You can go back to my previous post and scribble out 'rune' anywhere that it appears, and replace it with 'Glyph' or 'Sigil' or 'Symbol' or 'Funny Squiggle', and the intent will be unchanged.

I only went this direction conceptually because Dark Knight literally has always been the weird "arcane" Tank, going back to HW, and it does literally light up with all kinds of bizarre linguistic-looking symbols that other Jobs do not.

I pulled "Bloodsoaked Runes" out of my ear in the span of half a second, not to imply anything literally inscribed on a blade, but because it sounded like the kind of ridiculous titling that SE uses for Dark Knight actions — like spending "Blackblood Gauge" to use "Bloodspillers".

I mentioned them being associated with the blade because, literally, in actual animations present since HW inside the actual game, the Dark Knight lights up the length of their blade with strange glowing runes symbols.

https://i.imgur.com/YvscUqS.png

You can call it "Emotionally-Charged Calligraphy" or whatever if that somehow makes it feel more "correct" for Dark Knight — which I have to admit I find dubious as a guideline, considering that Dark Knight has always been a giant arbitrary spaghetti pile of "Oh, that sounds like it would excite a 12 year old boy" when it comes to explaining its actions and animations. (I'm not being snarky, I think there were actual interviews with Director Yoshida saying things along those lines)

(splitting into a second reply just for organization / readability)

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While Ninjutsu, for instance, does allow for 7 different actions, it requires 4 buttons to pull that off, and ultimately 5 buttons (7 if you include Huton's implications) are drawn into that one process. Making that kind of room would probably require significant reframing of certain existing tools.

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Well, then don't use Ninja as such a literal framework.

Dancer just repurposes preexisting buttons to enter its codes, Samurai and Monk just have them tacked on to combos it would be using anyway.

I think this is being interpreted as way more complex than necessary, or I just explained it remarkably poorly, or something. I'm talking about something as relatively simple as Samurai Sen and Monk Beast Chakras. For example:

Hard Slash → Syphon Strike → 3rd combo

3rd combo options:

• Power Slash — conjures the glyph of Humility
• Delirium — conjures the glyph of Pride
• Souleater — conjures the glyph of Passion

AOE equivalents all chain from a new Spinning Slash AOE starter:

• Stalwart Soul — Humility
• Unleash — Pride
• Abyssal Drain — Passion

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Dark Arts

• 1.0s cooldown
• Consumes three different Glyphs to invoke a Spell (GCD) from the Abyss.
• end with Humility → damage with falloff and applies a heavy reactive healing effect, like Excogitation. Become Humiliated for 60s, preventing invoking this Spell again.
• end with Pride → damage with falloff and summons Esteem for 30s. Become Prideless for 60s, preventing invoking this Spell again.
• end with Passion → damage with falloff and restores all MP. Become Passionless for 60s, preventing invoking this Spell again.

↑

Blood Weapon

• 60s cooldown
• 2 charges
• Becomes Meikyo Shisui for Dark Knights: can use 3rd combos without prerequisites, generating 3 Gylphs within 3 GCDs.

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Please understand that I'm just whipping this up in a hurry, it's not meant to be a 'final concept' that's locked in granite:

You could use actions like Unmend or Unleash to add more, or alternative, 'code points', if desired.

You could change or expand the code system to require a more specific ordering, rather than just focusing on the final Glyph.

You could change it to allow for producing Spells from entering the same Glyph multiple or three times.

You could change it to not care about order, and simply based on how many different Glyphs are entered (like Beast Chakra).

You could change it to work like Steps instead, where you use an action every 20 or 30 or 60 seconds (say, Blood Weapon) and enter a 'Glyph Entry' phase, where your other actions convert to Glyphs.

You could change the Spell effects if they're deemed too rigid, clunky, or problematic — this is not a final draft, they're just quick examples.

You can change the names around if you have conceptual objections to calling this-or-that action "that-or-this".

I'm not personally-married to any specific detail or aspect of it. All I'm doing is trying to outline how Dark Knight could bring in more GCDs — and justify using one over another — without bloating out the cooldown tracking or key bindings.

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Originally Posted by Eorzean_username

I mentioned them being associated with the blade because, literally, in actual animations present since HW inside the actual game, the Dark Knight lights up the length of their blade with strange glowing runes symbols.

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Hello animation of Blood Weapon (and to my knowledge, Blood Weapon only). Allow me to introduce you to RPR's Soulsow:
https://i.imgur.com/MJNmURm.png

Shall we suggest RPR get similar runes?

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Originally Posted by Eorzean_username

Well, then don't use Ninja as such a literal framework.

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I did not mean to imply a literal copy-over of its framework. I'd already argue that Ten, Chi, and Jin should optionally replace Spinning Blade, Gust Blade, and Aeolian Edge upon Ninjutsu's initial activation (since bunnying prevents use of weaponskills during that time anyways).

Rather, my concern was that you'd usually want at least three symbols. If you want to build that from a single-combo job, you simply replace that 1-2-3 combo with them. If you add a further combo, though, you'd probably want to keep going until you hit 3. And then you'd want at least two available through AoE. Etc., etc.

Finally, if you go more Sen-style, ordinal or otherwise, but those don't feel distinct in themselves though, you're going through all that effort just to see the difference only upon hitting that 'super-finisher', which could take a good 22.5 seconds or so.

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Please understand that I'm just whipping this up in a hurry, it's not meant to be a 'final concept' that's locked in granite:

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Understood, understood.

A further question though, albeit it based off the first spitball idea on the three glyphs:

Does it feel sufficient to you to vary these combos primarily just off of their DA resource generated? If you'd like to more to each Dark-Sam combo, what do you imagine you'd do for their individual effects outside of their (ordinal/ordered) Sen granted?

Else, you'd here be adding 5 new GCDs (3 new finishers, 1 new opener, and 2 converted skills), but DA-Iaijutusu aside, they would seem mostly the same skill, just giving a different Sen / rune / glyph / "sticker". (This, by the way, is what I was I meant to refer to above in the buttons likely necessary to situate such a system -- not a separate need for each discrete 'code' button.)

This would seem especially noticeable if each glyph had its own 1-minute lockout, such that you just cycle between each once per 20-22.5 (9 GCDs pre-Haste) seconds, rather than much being able to flex that per your desire for any of those particular effects.



My $0.02 in summary:

• I like the idea of having a sort of second-tier finisher in the form of Dark Arts (or whatever rename). This all looks pretty cool, especially as an avenue to explore further.
  
  
• Spitball: I'd especially like the idea of building up buffs that sort of represent some (pre-DRK-pilled or what have you) belief or value held before sacrificing it for a highly changed non-removable buff (or debuff-as-net-benefit for more obvious symbolic identity). The timing should feel crucial and the risk-reward element significant.
  
  
• If we are to spend some 9 buttons just on combo GCDs --a count greater even than on DRG or SAM-- I'd really like for those combos to do something distinct in themselves, rather than just forming which 2nd-tier finisher we start with (in much the way that BRD songs, limited by their individual CDs, now work mostly just as a one-time choice in which goes first/fourth/seventh, which goes second/fifth/eighth, etc.).
  
  
• Blood Meikyo sounds fun, honestly, but what other synergetic skill effects might we use here to avoid stepping on SAM/MNK's toes, if we wished to avoid that?