It has nothing to do with them being 'harder to play'.
BLM is easy to play, and SAM is the easiest to play.
Meanwhile Ninja, is one of the hardest to play.
It's all about rDPS and utility.
BLM and SAM are 'selfish DPS' their personal DPS is ALL they bring, meanwhile others like Ninja, bring rDPS in the form of Trick attack, etc.
They just haven't balanced the utility very well since Shadowbringers came out. Before then it was actually pretty alright.
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08-22-2019, 12:15 AMSeraphor
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08-22-2019, 12:18 AMTaiyouSeishinPersonally, i think BLM is fine as is. Most people i know, dont have an issue with how the class feels. But i am not bothered by their dps numbers. (I also dont play casters)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lina_Slayer
The relationship between mnk and blm... i feel should be sam and blm instead. I. Happy mnk got some of the changes they have been asking for, but a dps with utility shouldnt be that far ahead of everyone.
And im not sure with your wording if you are meaning to call people out. But most of what is said is on principle, experience, and looking at those logs.
If you feel a dps with dps-buffing-utility shouldnt have higher rdps, then you are advocating for those type of utilities to be removed. Because you are taxing those classes for having them, but the tax nullifies the benefit, so the utility may as well not exist.
Keep in mind with your examplr, that mnk is NOT what people here are asking for with their own classes, mnk is beating sam in even PERSONAL dps based on what ive seen, which is wrong for the sam.
Mnk has two utilities, and only one of them is a dps-buffing type, where do YOU think they should be? -
08-22-2019, 01:01 AMShurrikhanNeither rDPS nor aDPS performance carried by team but, for the benefit of the team, must still work their own damage around raid (de)buffs for contribution they cannot claim = selfish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor
Can demand a better party as to contribute a greater rDPS parse = selfless.
...Interesting. -
08-22-2019, 01:16 AMTaiyouSeishinThat is quite the distortion... good jobQuote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
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08-22-2019, 02:16 AMLina_SlayerOk, sorry if I came as confrontational, I made those questions because I didn't have time to expand my point so it was just some food for thought and no I'm not singling you or anyone out, I'm more challenging an idea that is very common here in those forums as well as other places and has even be said to me by a couple of friends in some discussions and was something I kind of used to believe as well, before that site started showing RDPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaiyouSeishin
My point, and I will use MNK vs BLM as an example to show it, is that it is actually more complicated than people believe and put this idea that in "a 70th (or any other arbitrary number) percentile parse "selfish "should beat "selfless", but from there selfless should reign supreme" in the spotlight and show how it's not the be all end all balance utopia some people are claiming it to be.
So first I'll answer the two questions I presented: 1. BLM and MNK are very balanced between each other, if those 2 were the only DPS in the game it'd be one of the most balanced games ever. 2. Other than some smaller complaints BLM and MNK are really fine gameplay wise and actively reworking them would be harmful to the game as a whole, specially with so many classes deserving some QoLs/reworks.
And thus here comes my problem with the proposed "balance utopia", in lower percentiles the class with utility (MNK and its Brotherhood) beats the selfish class (BLM) at every Savage fight, but is then beaten at very high percentiles, so by only looking at the most overpowered dps jobs in the game, we already see a problem, it's not working as our balance model suggests where selfish should become less and less effective as the percentages grow, it means that just tweaking their numbers is not gonna make those two classes follow our "balance utopia" model, and thus comes the only way to fix that and mantain balance, rework one or both classes, however FFXIV is mostly a casual MMO so reworking beloved jobs because of high end Savage optimization is a no no and while I'm using two classes as an example the relationship between BLM and DRG is similar and I bet if I dig deeper I may find more examples where selfish jobs are not "working" as intended (and some where they are of course).
So to answer your question of where I think each job should be, my answer may sound a little too chaotic and people will complain anyway, but since the jobs are so wildly different with the most varied tools, but all end up doing the same thing which is beating enrage timers, I'd force a ~500 rdps rule (which may get lower as the expansion goes), which is quite simple doesn't matter who is ahead as long as no job is outside this gap, sure people will complain if they are 200 rdps behind and thus can't join some elitist party and elitists will still force meta classes even if this makes basically no difference in my scenario, but at least for now I believe it's the best approach. -
08-22-2019, 03:35 AMVendalwind
As to current balance questions again posed. Yeah i think MNK is a bit OP right now and BLM is good and solid within itself. MNK should not have better pDPS than BLM or SAM, and even arguably slightly less pDPS than DRG as well cause it has mantra.
NIN as the most dmg utility of the melees need the lowest pDPS among them but the highest rDPS potential. And thus honestly could use a boost in both departments at the moment.
Dnc sjould operate the same way as NIN for ranged. BRD in the middle , MCH as pDPS king.
When i talk about selfish dps not needing to contribute to team play, its because without RAID dps utility classes they wouldnt need to adapt at all to team buffs. Add a trick attack to the party you add difficulty through coordination. -
08-22-2019, 06:26 AMEliadilLet's be honest, Dragoon or Monk don't need to adapt to the party raid buff in order to achieve decent damage as well. However, if they sync to the party buffs, just like SAM and BLM they'll have an even greater potential... Just like SAM and BLM in the end.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendalwind
That's just my two cents on the subject. Might not be much but y'never know. -
08-22-2019, 11:28 AMVendalwindMonk in particular. other than lining up brotherhood with riddle of fire their damage is so steady that there isn't really any other burst management necessary ( i mean there is but its rather minor, and with chakras not really controllable etc.) as long as they are on top of cooldowns. DRG i cant talk about cause i don't honestly know it well since i dont have it capped.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eliadil
And yeah what you say is kinda true, their utility moves are very low effort, but a monk or DRG never have to change their playstyle because well... they always play with their buff in mind, whereas other classes such as BLM or SAM do have to adapt their rotations slightly in some cases to match up well, and therefore you could argue that there is some extra skill in playing BLM appropriate to each specific team comp.
NIN on the other hand, while playstyle doesn't change either regardless of who the other party members are, is complex enough and even frequently self sacrificial when it comes time to get that trick out. If NIN messes up their movements (there is no nin rotation that can just be followed) even slightly it usually means taking a hit to pDPS to get the trick out in time anyways in the form of a kassatsu or standard lost Ninjutsu. And if you factor meisui management and TCJ non mudra clip timings it makes trick a move that has to be planned effectively 30 seconds before hand at least, + there is the positional to manage as well. Its wild what goes into maintaining trick, and utilizing it fully as a NIN given the odd recast timing of mudras and other things, as compared to Brotherhood especially. DRG at least has some mild complexity in maintaining proximity with eye of the dragon, but litany is simple.
You've got a good point! that being said a full rework really shouldnt be necessary to bring things too inline, rather just potency buffs and changes. this could be done by lowering MNKs pDPS via just some potency on his moves (something simple like take 20 off dragon kick which theoretically should be used 1/6 gcds) and have brotherhood slightly improved (boost ally effect to 10%, but keep personal effect at 5% to not inflate pDPS)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lina_Slayer
IMO monk does still need some rework tweaking too BUT i think its very much last in line to receive it right now, especially because of it's current overtuning with regard to the entire cast (im looking at you terrible double true strike rotation you dancy bastard)
And with that Id also point out that both reworkd AND potency wise all RANGED shoudl be looked at RDM and SMN need to be looked at as raise is re-evaluated, and NIN REALLLY needs to be looked at potency and rework wise. -
08-22-2019, 11:39 AMShurrikhanIt's not, though. Pure dps jobs see literally no increase in their fflogs parses for playing around their raid (de)buffs, because the benefit is removed from either metric, rDPS or aDPS. Yet they are expected to play around those raid (de)buffs for the benefit of the team. For this additional effort for which their metrics of performance will never increase they are called "selfish".Quote:
Originally Posted by TaiyouSeishin
Meanwhile, jobs whose rDPS is literally carried by their party are considered the more "selfless" jobs.
Ironic? Perhaps. Distorted? Not at all.
I'm criticizing the nomenclature for exactly that reason. The topic has not been taken out of context by considering how the term is erroneously used. The erroneous use of the term IS the topic. There was a point when the term made sense, since logs were based on pDPS and pDPS upon padding. (Once stigmatized accordingly, the sheer inertia of the term "selfish dps" as an equivalent to rDPS-inferior dps job kept buffed pure-DPS classes that were by then providing more rDPS than Ninjas out of many a PF.) Now, in ShB, pure-pDPS jobs have been overtuned in turn, each at the highest levels of rDPS, while only padding rDPS jobs while receiving zero padding for themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaiyouSeishin
I could understand using the term "selfish" dps when there were pDPS who wanted as much padding as possible, despite that literally everyone wanted as much padding as possible and your average pure pDPS player usually saw the least benefit from padding and therefore often had the least insistence on it in their compositions. But the term makes no sense now.
That is, quite literally, "personal dps only = 'selfish'; rDPS included = not 'selfish'." And I'm not faulting that explanation of the term. It's the term itself that I find incredibly counter-intuitive in explanations to players new to rDPS/pDPS, the meta, optimization, and the like.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor
The misnomer was understandable, if costly, when fflogs ran on pDPS and pDPS-only jobs could actually be padded instead of only ever giving padding to others. It's now the opposite, so I don't understand why we're still using it when trying to explain things clearly. It'd be like an automobile mechanic talking about the "engine" of an electric car to someone who wouldn't know what an engine is either, so the analogy is of zero use -- instead providing only further erroneous complication. Or, heck, think of it as a mentor explaining an AoE which forms an unbroken circle around oneself as a "donut AoE" despite that AoE still having its center. It's not trading accuracy for clarity; it's just annoyingly wrong. -
08-22-2019, 11:54 AMTaiyouSeishinNo you directly distorted what was meant. Selfish didnt mean "i only care about my deeps and screw the rest of you" it meant that mechanically, it does not provide team synergy abilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
They put 'selfish dps' in quotations for a reason, and you took it out of that context.
A pure dps does not have synergy abilities, it merely brings as much personal dps as it can. And in actuality "selfless" wasnt even in their post.
This is why i dislike rdps being seen now, because it went from "i like you cuz you increase my numbers" to "now you just want me to super pad your numbers" and not about "does this improve our party comp"