Things to think about before you call someone "Bad"

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Originally Posted by Gallus

I too thought (and think) so, which is why I found this thread to be a disappointing surprise. The title of the thread was pretty clear and wasn't really open to interpretation. You don't go around calling people bad. People however, questioned it, and some went as far as to claim calling someone bad could very well be an accurate assessment. Then had someone else claim that it could be too that the term bad was referred to a player's performance. Basically, anything and beyond to justify harassing someone.

I know my stuff well so I don't come across very often into situations where someone attempts to blame me for a wipe or teach me how to do my rotation, but on the rare occasion I had a bad day, or I was playing a job I was not used to, or I came back from taking a break and felt extremely clumsy, or even made a mistake that cost the team some deaths or even a wipe, I was 9 out of 10 times welcomed with a "heal????????????????" or "is it very hard to aoe???" - proceeds to kick - or "keep the f******* aggro".

If you are not part of what I call "the legion of friendly advice givers", there's zero reason why you should even feel alluded by my words, because what I'm condemning here is harassing others on the internet, not truly offering friendly advice. Thing is, my experience has repeteadly demonstrated me that friendly advice in a forum translates into harassment ingame in the heat of the moment. You really are friendly and tactful when approaching someone? Cool. But know many aren't. So do not act surprised when people raise the alarm when someone approaches to tell them they could play differently a 10th time when the other 9 times they got insulted and mocked.

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Please explain how a tank typing "heals???" in chat is, in any way whatsoever, harassment? They have no idea whether it were simply a brain lapse on your part or you have no idea what you're doing. All they do is they died. Let's assume they popped CDs, so it was a healing error. While them making a comment may across blunt, it's hardly harassment.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

We can always go back to kicking them silently and letting them continue to underperform, since pointing that out is "shaming" them.

Sigh if we tell them about their shortcomings, we're mean and shaming them. If we kick silently, we're mean because we're not giving them a chance to improve. If we tell them about their shortcomings and kick them, we're mean and toxic raider filth.

Then you don't want us to say people here like to coddle bad gameplay...

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Yes you are correct, there is no right way to handle this. It all depends on the person in question, how they react to being called out for bad gemplay in front of the party. It's understandable when they go into their defense in that moment instead of taking the advice and maybe try to improve. Understandable, since they are bascially backed into a corner, but maybe not the right move in that situation ^^

But actually improving is nothing you can do from one moment to the next one aynway, so I think the best way is to apologise for the bad gameplay (deescalation) and either somehow finish the content / getting carried or leaving the party / getting kicked.


But all I wanted was to point out why people sometimes become toxic over a friendly advice with good intentions: Pointing with the finger at them in front of other people can be enough for that.

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Originally Posted by Tint

Yes you are correct, there is no right way to handle this.

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There is a right way. You can tell someone they're underperforming without being rude about it. There is a massive difference between "sorry we have to kick you, your dps is too low" and "l2p noob dps".

If a person can't handle any criticism even when it's politely given then that's something they need to address. Not the people dishing out the criticism. Just because you don't like what someone said doesn't mean what they said was wrong or unprovoked.

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Originally Posted by Tint

But all I wanted was to point out why people sometimes become toxic over a friendly advice with good intentions: Pointing with the finger at them in front of other people can be enough for that.

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Unfortunately without being able to send tells in instances the only way to inform someone as to why they're getting kicked is to say it in front of everyone. Some hate getting kicked silently, some hate being publicly criticised...you can't please everyone. The best you can do is be polite.

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Originally Posted by SekkerOfTrust

yesterday did O12N yes, the fight ended whit MT, me as healer and 1 dps triple raised alive while death dps was asking if wipe or no, enjoy ur numbers

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Those numbers, when looked at by actual raiders and not jerks, give you an idea on where you stand, where you are needing improvement, what is lacking, what happened during the raid, and so on. Look, I'll level with you. I'm a 5k ninja in the current raid. And I haven't been kicked out of a party yet. I haven't run into any of these elitist players that some folks love to say are everywhere.

I'll say it again. I'm a 5k ninja in alphascape savage. That marks me as a trash player, yet I have not been kicked out of any pfs in this tier. Where are these so called elitists at? Nobody knows who my main is, and I don't join the particular same set of players. So by your logic, why aren't any of these so called elitists kicking me?

Don't worry, I'll wait.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

Those numbers, when looked at by actual raiders and not jerks, give you an idea on where you stand, where you are needing improvement, what is lacking, what happened during the raid, and so on. Look, I'll level with you. I'm a 5k ninja in the current raid. And I haven't been kicked out of a party yet. I haven't run into any of these elitist players that some folks love to say are everywhere.

I'll say it again. I'm a 5k ninja in alphascape savage. That marks me as a trash player, yet I have not been kicked out of any pfs in this tier. Where are these so called elitists at? Nobody knows who my main is, and I don't join the particular same set of players. So by your logic, why aren't any of these so called elitists kicking me?

Don't worry, I'll wait.

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To be extremely fair 5k anything is far beyond trash and you know it. Come back at me when you do 1.3k in there. Then you're trash mo.

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Originally Posted by ko_

To be extremely fair 5k anything is far beyond trash and you know it. Come back at me when you do 1.3k in there. Then you're trash mo.

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Yeah, I looked it up out of curiosity. 5088 is 10th percentile for ninja. Which, on a [non-carry] clear in a savage, isn't enough to claim you're a master of your class but you're in a great place to start optimizing.

The types of players I rail against are ones in this situation pulling one quarter of 5k because they can't stop tripping over every red mark on the ground. And they are depressingly common. And they are, well, bad.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

There is a right way. You can tell someone they're underperforming without being rude about it. There is a massive difference between "sorry we have to kick you, your dps is too low" and "l2p noob dps".

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Then they report you because the only reason you can tell if someone's DPS is too low is if you're using a parser which is against the TOS.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Then they report you because the only reason you can tell if someone's DPS is too low is if you're using a parser which is against the TOS.

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Nobody uses parsers, though. They just sense this by feeling it.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

I'll say it again. I'm a 5k ninja in alphascape savage. That marks me as a trash player, yet I have not been kicked out of any pfs in this tier. Where are these so called elitists at?

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Wow 5k is not trash in this tier. It's not amazing, but it's certainly not trash. Depending on the class, the gear, the fight, party make-up and whether it's with a pug group or not, it could be seen as fairly decent. You'd be doing similar or better dps than high percentile tanks. If you're able to do mechanics correctly on top of that...no you're not trash. Just unremarkable.

Come back when you do actual trash dps and try to tell us that "these so-called elitists" don't exist.

Don't worry, we'll wait :P

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Then they report you because the only reason you can tell if someone's DPS is too low is if you're using a parser which is against the TOS.

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That is just one example of many as to why someone could get kicked. They might because they don't do mechanics properly. Also you don't always need a parser to see whenever someone does bad dps. If you're familiar with the class you can spot some signs such as missing buffs/dots/seeing animations for abilities that appear casted at the wrong time/etc. I seriously doubt anyone needs a parser to spot the dreaded ice blm or a bard who never uses songs.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Then they report you because the only reason you can tell if someone's DPS is too low is if you're using a parser which is against the TOS.

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If you're paying attention (and you know the class mechanics yourself) it's not hard to see when someone isn't doing what they're supposed to, and that's without actual numbers. It's made more clear by how slow something is dying.