Dear Healers who don't DPS

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Originally Posted by Penthea

but a tank who does zero dps is a bad tank because the second any very skilled dps comes along they'll rip aggro from them.

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No, they won't.

I told you I tried this on PLD. Two of the DPS in my group were savage raiders from my static and they had weapons 10 item levels above my PLD. I still held hate doing 0 DPS. Just to clarify I am not saying you'll never lose hate doing this, but DF is DF. Most of the time the DPS in there are not doing 90% percentile DPS.

You just do not understand how much hate tanks can generate especially in SB they increased the enmity modifiers on tank stuff.

If a tank doing 0 DPS is a bad tank then a healer doing 0 DPS is also a bad healer. It's not cool to have double standards.

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Originally Posted by Miste

but DF is DF.

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I was on about content in general, not just DF.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I was on about content in general, not just DF.

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Premades (PF) is different. The leader of the group can stipulate what he wants out of the group. If he is okay with healers not DPSing then fine, but if he expects them to do so and they don't then he has the power and right to kick them and get new ones since he made the party.

I never say or do anything to healers who don't DPS in DF. I ignore it even though it irks me, but there are simple facts about how this is suboptimal play.

I mean tanks also have abilties that heal themselves or others (Equilibrium, Clemency, Souleater), a tank's job isn't to heal right? So can tanks ignore these abilities as well even if it will help the group, help the healer, and possibly save their life in a dire situation?

Yes, healer DPS generally doesn't stop a wipe outside of savage (enrages), but if a healer's role is only to heal and they can ignore DPS then a tank can ignore any healing abilities they have even if it will cause death...because healing isn't their job.

This just doesn't work. No role should be able to ignore selective parts of their toolkit.

Also if we wanna get really silly here we can take O2N Deltascape V2.0 as an example of how this mentality really doesn't work.

There are no adds in that fight so the main tank grabs boss then....if a healer's job is to heal then a tank's job is to tank...what does the off tank do? It isn't his job to DPS right? So.....I guess he watches a movie the entire fight.

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Originally Posted by Miste

Also if we wanna get really silly here we can take O2N Deltascape V2.0 as an example of how this mentality really doesn't work.

There are no adds in that fight so the main tank grabs boss then....if a healer's job is to heal then a tank's job is to tank...what does the off tank do? It isn't his job to DPS right? So.....I guess he watches a movie the entire fight.

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This occurred to me today and I was coming here to post it in this thread but you beat me to it by about an hour. Thank you though, despite it's silliness it really does drive this point home better than almost anything.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Look I agree that healers should do more than just healing if their current situation allows for it...but a tank who does zero dps is a bad tank because the second any very skilled dps comes along they'll rip aggro from them. To solidify threat on themselves tanks need to use the threat combo or hope no one in the group is very good at pumping out damage. Whereas a healer who only heals isn't going to get anyone killed. They just make the fights last longer.

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Actually, they won't. I can hold hate without even keeping my tank stance on, though it can get dicing trying that. Abyssal Drain, Overpower and Flash generate enough aggro even good DPS won't pull if you spammed them. A tank who does this is equally as bad as a healer not DPSing. People have to expect FFXIV isn't WoW or any other MMO where healers do minimal damage. You can certainly argue healing is far too potent and healers shouldn't have the downtime they do, but that is a different discussion.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Actually, they won't. I can hold hate without even keeping my tank stance on, though it can get dicing trying that. Abyssal Drain, Overpower and Flash generate enough aggro even good DPS won't pull if you spammed them. A tank who does this is equally as bad as a healer not DPSing

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No they're not. I agree healers should dps if they're able to, but that behaviour is absolutely not the same as a healer not dpsing. What you describe is a player who deliberately doesn't use some of his kit designed for his primary role, which is more like a healer who only does single target heals and refuses to do any aoe healing.

A healer not dpsing is more like a tank who makes no effort to actually kill anything even though he has already very much established aggro and is well able to help, but he (for whatever reason) chooses to just needlessly continue to generate aggro. Both are examples of players who wish to remain doing nothing but their primary role. However due to the nature of healing, it is more obvious when a healer doesn't dps than it is when a tank only tanks because tanks are hitting mobs anyway. Damage is a side effect of their primary role. Also because you can see cast bars for healers so you can actually see a lot of what they're doing on the party ui, and well tanks don't exactly have a lot of cast bars :P

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Originally Posted by Penthea

No they're not. I agree healers should dps if they're able to, but that behaviour is absolutely not the same as a healer not dpsing. What you describe is a player who deliberately doesn't use some of his kit designed for his primary role, which is more like a healer who only does single target heals and refuses to do any aoe healing.

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Arguing about semantics taken to the next level here =(

My primary role is to help my team kill the dragon/clear the dungeon.

I'll use every last button I can to the best of my ability to do so tyvm.

I don't know why people feel such a need to over complicate and compartmentalise things.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Arguing about semantics taken to the next level here =(

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I honestly can't see how someone thinks a tank only using flash and no aggro combo is the same as a healer not dpsing. The aggro combo is part of a tank's tanking kit. Dpsing is not part of a healer's healing kit. It's apples and oranges.

Some people have some very funny ideas as to what counts as part of a primary role or not.

Well you meet all sorts in the forums.

We should really be rid of this archaic notion that healers need only be concerned with healing. Yes, they are healers and to heal is their primary function, but this game is designed to the extent that, given the right circumstances, healers have plenty of time to do something other than heal, and since DPS is embedded into their kit, it stands to reason that they can fill that gap with DPS.

Inevitably, healers do not NEED to DPS, as the game was not designed such that healer DPS is needed to clear content. That being said, I find that those players who use the "healers don't DPS" excuse to justify standing around are often just being lazy. I've even been told by one such healer that they didn't have to go "above and beyond their duty". Sure, but just because you don't HAVE to DPS doesn't mean that you shouldn't.

Everything I said assumes that a healer can DO their primary function, which is to heal. Healer DPS is not an excuse to be a bad healer, of course.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I honestly can't see how someone thinks a tank only using flash and no aggro combo is the same as a healer not dpsing. The aggro combo is part of a tank's tanking kit. Dpsing is not part of a healer's healing kit. It's apples and oranges.

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Because Flash, Overpower and Abyssal Drain generate more aggro than anything else in a tank's toolkit. Therefore, if they were to only do their primary role, they needs only maintain aggro and rotate cooldowns. Even if you do want to include just their base aggro combo, a Dark Knight spamming Power Slash with Grit on throughout the whole encounter is equally awful. So as Sebazy said, it's semantics. The crux of the point is all roles should use the full arsenal of their abilities to help your team.