Wow, Wuk Lamat is really single-handedly ruining the DT story...

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Originally Posted by Rueby

....I wandered around the city after the attack and one of the taco shop keepers gave me a 'these soldiers need some tacos to resolve conflict' are you kidding me? You saw people get butchered in the streets and the writing is like 'yes, food will bring us together'...

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I just got through this section on an alt yesterday, but I didn't talk to any NPCs. Holy crap, that line about tacos is awful. I would call it tone-deaf, but this is something beyond that. And from a practical matter, we figured out pretty quick that those "soldiers" aren't even human and couldn't eat a taco anyway.

On my second pass through the story, I'm fairly well convinced that much of Hiroi's inspiration is a reaction to modern politics and discourse. He's looking at how people treat each other on social media, the vitriol and mean-spirited arguments that infest so much of our daily lives, and saying that if we can just sit down and talk things over we might find out that we have more in common than we think. I think that is admirable and even worthy to an extent; after all, it is more difficult to hate a man once you get to know him. However, that kind of falls apart when it comes down to existential matters of life and death, and the destruction of all that we know.

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Originally Posted by Rueby

I thought it might get better, but it seems like the entire story is getting from bad to worse. I would've liked a Rhalgr's reach like solo duty where we tried to help people, even the attack on the crystarium/lakeland felt more involved. I think it would've been nice to have arrived LATE at the palace because we were saving civilians or TRYING. Instead we just stood there to watch. Even Estinien is getting way more action than us...what the hell?

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[Spoilers for the last 2/3rds of Dawntrail]
I had a lot of patience for the first half when I first played through. Are there issues? oh GOD YES, there's many, but I was kind of willing to quash my feelings for the moment because I still believed "well, this is kind of silly and stupid, but it's probably building to something cool." There's been some stupid moments in the plot before (like everything with the Lopporits in Endwalker) where I could just roll my eyes and move on because I trusted we'd get to something interesting and good again soon. I was trying to give it the benefit of the doubt so hard. Wuk Lamat is an annoying idiot? That's okay, I bet she'll have a moment of character growth and get better. The people of Tural seem kind of shallow and need some outsider to come solve very obvious problems for them? It's all part of the Rite of Succession, it's a test to see how the challengers approach problem solving, sure, whatever. Gulool Ja Ja dies in a stupid way to his son? Well, they could have handled that better, but I understand what they were going for thematically I guess.

I kept doing that over and over and over again until I got to zone 5 and couldn't do it anymore, because I realized they were building toward NOTHING. Wuk Lamat has the poorest excuse for character development I've ever seen. Lyse had her annoying moments in Stormblood, but she was humbled by her naivete and got better later (even if she didn't quite earn her position in a satisfying way). Wuk Lamat just learns that empathy is her superpower and that somehow lets her win fights and make friends with everyone she wants (not even remotely how empathy works, obviously). The people of Tural apparently ARE just that shockingly clueless and needed Wuk Lamat to solve their problems by teaching them to [checks notes] listen to others and believe in each other. That's great for resolving disputes among friends, but that can't actually solve a lot of political conflict, now, can it? Gulool Ja Ja dies while we just stand there slack-jawed and watch it happen? That whole "siege" felt like a nothing-burger when there was no instanced battle where we had to fight off and defend people in the city, and while we were busy doing Hero Stuff, Gulool Ja Ja dies, and we see it in an echo vision or something to catch us back up.

And then we learn nothing and go to Solution 9 with the same Friendship is Magic mentality in a place it explicitly does not belong because they are a hostile enemy nation! But I'm sure if we all get to know each other and share some food, we can overcome all of our differences and find peace, right?

Can you imagine if the war with the Garlean Empire was handled this way in Stormblood? If we had some tag-along insisting that all we needed to do to end the war was just befriend Varis or Zenos and share some Garlean Pizza and Doman Rice Balls together? If we could come to understand them by learning about how sad it is to be a Garlean, and they just have to conquer the whole world to be able to end prejudice against Garleans or something completely unethical and ridiculous like that? Can you imagine if during the fight with Shinryu at the end, the annoying tag-along came bursting into the fight out of literally nowhere and went "Zenos! Listen to me! I understand you, I really do!" Because that's pretty much how the last 2/3rds felt to me.

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Originally Posted by CuteBucket

[Spoilers for the last 2/3rds of Dawntrail]
"Zenos! Listen to me! I understand you, I really do!"

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Not a single chance in hell for Zenos not to instantaneously obliterate you if you were to do this.

A dialogue between Wuk Lamat and Zenos is not something I thought I ever wanted, but now that this idea in my head, I want to see Wuk Lamat despair at Zenos' nihilism :'D

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Originally Posted by ovIm

A dialogue between Wuk Lamat and Zenos is not something I thought I ever wanted, but now that this idea in my head, I want to see Wuk Lamat despair at Zenos' nihilism :'D

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That's something similar to what i had as a thought and I had AI help me.

Fray:

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"Wuk Lamat? A cheerleader in armor, given more power than she knows what to do with. Do you really think she earned her place, or are you just letting the story sweep you along, hoping for something more? It’s laughable, isn’t it—someone so untested claiming victory over battles they didn’t truly fight. And where does that leave you?"

"Look at her. No scars, no burden of the past weighing her down—yet she stands at the center while those who’ve bled and suffered stand aside. Tell me, does it not gnaw at you? The feeling of being sidelined while someone else, someone lesser, takes your kill, your moment."

"But perhaps this is what you wanted all along—a simple, tidy resolution, without the mess of emotion or struggle. So be it. But remember this: no victory worth having is handed to you. And no true hero lets another steal their story."

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Zenos:

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"This... Wuk Lamat... she rules? But does she fight? Does she seek the thrill of battle? No... she is another empty puppet, content with titles and crowns. Her existence is as fleeting and hollow as the rest."

"If she cannot offer me a challenge, if she cannot push me to the edge of death and beyond, she is of no consequence. Only strength, only the battlefield, holds meaning. If she cannot provide that... then her rule is worthless."

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Originally Posted by MoiraTerrwell

"Tell me, does it not gnaw at you? The feeling of being sidelined while someone else, someone lesser, takes your kill, your moment."

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You know, I hate giving points to AI slob, but THAT particular bit hit harder than it should have. Chapeau x)

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Originally Posted by ovIm

A dialogue between Wuk Lamat and Zenos is not something I thought I ever wanted, but now that this idea in my head, I want to see Wuk Lamat despair at Zenos' nihilism :'D

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Yotsuyu and Fordola are other characters that make for fun scenarios to think about. Maybe Ilberd too.

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Originally Posted by ovIm

You know, I hate giving points to AI slob, but THAT particular bit hit harder than it should have. Chapeau x)

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Why look for AI slop when Zenos himself teased us with an option to accept him at the Royal Menagerie?

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Heh heh...are we to embrace and let bygones be bygones? Do our deeds weigh so little that you would cast all aside? Come. 'Twas plain from the first how this would end.

You live for these moments - when all hangs in the balance...when the difference between life and death is but a single stroke.

I live for them too! This is who we are, my friend! This is all we are! Ala Mhigo and Doma and Garlemald be damned! We tower above the gods! You by your gift, I by my might!

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Zenos knows what he wants- what he is, what he's done. He's not deluded by a greater cause or reason. I'd rather have him than the circus I'm surrounded by in DT but I know this is an unpopular opinion.

That aside, I think Zenos would've ignored Wuk Lamat in SB, or gave her the 'speech' that he gave to uh.. Jullus was it? if it's in EW. Which would've fried her last functioning braincell. She can't comprehend anything but peace and happiness and food existing.

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Originally Posted by MoiraTerrwell

Not a single chance in hell for Zenos not to instantaneously obliterate you if you were to do this.

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He wouldn't think they were remotely worth bothering with and would just leave which would be even worse.

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Originally Posted by Rueby

Zenos knows what he wants- what he is, what he's done. He's not deluded by a greater cause or reason. I'd rather have him than the circus I'm surrounded by in DT but I know this is an unpopular opinion.

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Why do you think it would be unpopular. I think there will only me a small subsection who incapable of separate fiction and reality, like how they believe no one has any business liking or simping Emet Setch because it "romanticize genocide".

Game is entertainment, and entertainment is to entertain. It's not rare for people - if given a choice between a cool villain and a boring heroes, most will prefer the former.