Dark Knight Megathread

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Complexity and synergy are buzzwords that people throw out there frequently but don't carry any meaning.

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Honestly, this just feels like a really cynical commentary about the community (which I think you should dial back because it's peeking out), because those two words... literally do have meaning, provided someone can back them up.

If I said right now, "just have Dark Mind boost your healing gained by some percent and it'll be fine," your response would be that DRK doesn't have enough self-healing to justify that change in direction. That's a discussion about whether things have value within or even directly interfere with other elements of a kit. If I said synergy was "just a buzzword" in just a response I'd be laughed out of the thread.

Likewise, if I said right now, "I have to weave 3 different cooldowns for DRK to get the same protection and sustained survival that a PLD can get just tapping Holy Sheltron," there's a discussion of reward versus gameplay depth and skill ceiling that should be had.

As for "weight", if a skill has a hitstop effect and a flashy animation but still only doles out 150-200p damage (coughAssassinatecough), there's a problem with the actual potency of the effect not justifying its visual performance.
More commonly though, I see this being used when discussing abilities that are culminations of long periods of sustained attack, particularly back when SMN had a two minute rotation just to get to Bahamut back in Stormblood.

Most of the time that I see the word 'complexity' being in discussion, it comes up in the context of dps. My job is more 'complex' than the others, so it should be the top dps by a bigger margin. I've seen this sort of grandstanding for nearly ten years now, and I'm bored of it. It's also foolish and dangerous, because the devs don't respond by giving you more dps. They respond by simplifying your job. We saw this perhaps most famously with 4.2's unga bunga, but there's a lot of this going on in melee dps at the moment as well. It's a nonsense word, and you'll have a lot more meaningful discussions if you expunge it from your FFXIV vocabulary.

I also think that making a job's design convoluted simply for the sake of making it more 'complex' is absurd, and you see no end to this in the well-intentioned but rubbish homebrews that people keep posting in here as potential reworks. Here, click on the link to my new DRK rework spreadsheet complete with MP, Blood, Shadow, and Abyss gauges. It was super amazing to theorycraft in my head, but nobody in their right mind wants to play it in practice. Here, I'll give you something even better to aspire to than 'complex'. Try 'fun'. You can't brag about 'fun' to the 'community'. But you might actually catch yourself enjoying the game.

You'd be surprised at how much of a difference hitstop makes to how players perceive an attack.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I've seen this sort of grandstanding for nearly ten years now, and I'm bored of it. It's also foolish and dangerous, because the devs don't respond by giving you more dps. They respond by simplifying your job. We saw this perhaps most famously with 4.2's unga bunga, but there's a lot of this going on in melee dps at the moment as well.

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Okay, but in this context, we're literally saying the exact inverse -- that the rotation is dull and shallow, despite the fact that it does the most burst DPS, meanwhile our defensives could deal with some simplification. That's... the goal of the last several pages of this thread.

It's effectively the same thing. You're using it as a pejorative without actually thinking about what it means. It's not like you've mastered the extreme limits of all these jobs and have come back unsatisfied in this one specific case.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

It's not like you've mastered the extreme limits of all these jobs

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Sure, but does only feedback from the people who have matter? Because that's an extreme minority of players you're describing.

I should think if anything, that barrier to entry gives more validity to arguments about "complexity".

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Here, I'll give you something even better to aspire to than 'complex'. Try 'fun'. You can't brag about 'fun' to the 'community'. But you might actually catch yourself enjoying the game.

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Funny, 'cuz last time someone said they didn't find the job fun, you spent multiple pages complaining about them not being specific enough.
... So please, tell us more about what "fun" means.

Because, frankly, all your metacommentary about how other people give feedback wrong can only serve to stifle discussion. Or swerve it, as is happening right now.

I'm not the one making a case on job 'complexity'. You are.

And you are right on one thing, I am trying to alter opinion, to protect a job design that's important to me. I don't want your homebrew.

I enjoy DRK's gameplay as it is. I think that the overall gameplay could be enhanced if a few more GCDs were added for variety in an expansion update. If there was a plan to update all of the unique tank cooldowns (Camo/Thrill/DM/PoA), then I wouldn't mind seeing some additional versatility added to DM in fights where there isn't any significant magic damage. I think that it would be nice if Dark Missionary had something extra to offer to offset its more situational use than Shake/Veil. Am I going to argue those points right now? Absolutely not. I'm not greedy. If the balance shifts, then I'll make a decision and step in as needed.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I enjoy DRK's gameplay as it is.

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And it would appear you're in the minority there, at least in this thread.

And to be clear, broad strokes, "I don't enjoy it as it is" isn't the same as "the job is unsalvageable and bad." It has good points worth preserving, just like it has low points to step away from.

But given you just spent several paragraphs discussing the connotations of "buzzwords" and how the devs react to them, I'm sure you're aware that "I enjoy it as is" can also be read as "change absolutely nothing at all."

Not really. Before the 6.1 change to Living Dead and Blood Weapon, DRK was less represented in Savage than GNB. Now it's more represented (behind only WAR), and it's the most played tank in the current Ultimate. There are plenty of people who enjoy the job. They're just playing the game, rather than posting in here.

And yes, there is absolutely nothing that needs to be done at this very moment. Just sit back, relax, and enjoy the job for once now that it's in a very respectable position. There are ways to improve it, but we should be looking to how the job can be improved in 7.x, rather than trying to scupper the job and bring us back to square one again.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I also think that making a job's design convoluted simply for the sake of making it more 'complex' is absurd, and you see no end to this in the well-intentioned but rubbish homebrews that people keep posting in here as potential reworks. Here, click on the link to my new DRK rework spreadsheet complete with MP, Blood, Shadow, and Abyss gauges. It was super amazing to theorycraft in my head, but nobody in their right mind wants to play it in practice. Here, I'll give you something even better to aspire to than 'complex'. Try 'fun'. You can't brag about 'fun' to the 'community'. But you might actually catch yourself enjoying the game.

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It's pretty disingenuous to state that people are giving ideas just for complexity's sake, as far as I can tell people giving suggestions here do have the ultimate goal of making DRK fun. It's not like there haven't been ideas to make it more engaging without turning it into a 300 IQ job either. I like the idea of moving DRK's MP regen from Syphon Strike to a new combo finisher. It's a simple change and could make downtime a lot less tedious since MP regen is now a more active action, all without being that much more complex. At some point though I don't think you can fix the boring downtime without some kind of rework.

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Originally Posted by baklava151

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Most of the rework concepts that I've seen posted in here are pretty atrocious. Even if you're going to fully rework a job, you still have to create something that feels roughly faithful to prior iterations. The instant that you start inventing new resource bars and introducing new edgy mechanic names, ugh, just stop. You're much better off looking at how the existing design can be altered first, rather than trying to take it in a completely different direction.

We've talked about the idea of putting MP and Blood on different combos before, back around Stormblood. The problem is that each resource has a potency value based on the on-demand spender for that resource. In single target, MP has a potency value that you can calculate from the cost of Edge. Blood has a potency value that you can calculate from the cost of Bloodspiller. So I can plug these numbers in and directly compare the effective potency of each combo. And that's a problem, because I'm always going to use the higher potency combo. So if it turns out that the MP combo provides more value, then I'll just use that combo, and spend the Blood from BW either on Bloodspiller or Living Shadow depending on whether it's an odd or even numbered minute. If it turns out that the Blood combo provides more value, then I'm only ever going to use the MP combo if I need to save up to use TBN.