Shots Fired: A Machinist Guide

The extra turret shots would be nice... If they counted as part of Wildfire. Everything I've read says turrets don't add any damage to Wildfire at all.

The thing though, is that Wildfire damage is just one component of the more important thing which is total damage done. For example, would you rather have a Wildfire that hits for 100 extra damage, or an extra turret shot for 300 damage?

It's a lose the battle, win the war thing. The boss doesn't care where your damage is coming from.

If you're just comparing Wildfire damage numbers you will certainly get larger numbers with an opener optimized to produce that, but that's not the whole picture.

A better way to compare them would be to compare total damage done by each opener in ACT after the same set period of time (say, 25 seconds each to allow for a full opener to conclude). Ideally you'd run this thousands of times in a simulator to smooth out RNG, but you get the idea.

Question for you guys. With all the cooldowns / procs I have to keep an eye on, as well as boss mechanics, I'm noticing having trouble keeping an eye on my dots / buffs and letting them run out. Anyone else having this problem? Is there a solution that you guys have found such as moving hotbars or something? I'm trying my best to pay attention to everything but sometimes there's just so much going on I forget about one thing or another.

Hot Shot is the same timer as Lead Shot.
When you refresh Hot Shot, refresh Lead shot.

On a related note, I remember people talking about shot damage occasionally not being added to Wildfire if you hit the target too near Wildfire's expiration time (say, the last second or something). Be it due to latency or whatever.

This might be me being superstitious, but I've completely stopped seeing this happening after I started tacking a throwaway ogcd like Leg/Foot Graze to the end of the last Slug Shot. It feels like it gets the game to update the stack better, compared to Slug Shot, [Empty GCD] which just feels iffy to me sometimes. Your other damaging ogcds are on cooldown at this point so you lose nothing by doing it.

It seems similar to that other superstition of hitting a boss with something after stepping out of an AoE, to get the server to update your position promptly.

Again, whether these are nonsense beliefs or have some basis in reality I don't know enough about the game's networking to say. I thought I'd just throw it out, I've not had any 'accidents' with Wildfire since.

Anyone else having a problem with some bosses going invincible before Wildfire goes off? I see it mostly in Neverreap on the first and third boss. Especially in a good group when you're killing the boss really fast, you usually don't even get 15 seconds in between invincible phases for Wildfire to be used, much less your entire buff phase. Really kills damage on those fights. Obviously, being dungeons it doesn't matter as much, but it's still really annoying. I know how BLMs feel when they lose Enochian because of it.

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Originally Posted by Myon88

If you're just comparing Wildfire damage numbers you will certainly get larger numbers with an opener optimized to produce that, but that's not the whole picture.

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I don't think you understand what I am saying. The opener that is not optimized for wildfire had more burst than the one that was optimized for wildfire.

Precisely, I agree with you and that is the rationale behind my opener as well.

I was replying to Ryaz up at the top of this page:
"The extra turret shots would be nice... If they counted as part of Wildfire. Everything I've read says turrets don't add any damage to Wildfire at all. "

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Originally Posted by Myon88

Precisely, I agree with you. I was replying to Ryaz up at the top of this page.

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Ah okay. Also the reason I do not use gauss round in the pre opener is because rapid fire speeds up the GCD to the point where gauss round won't be back up until after wildfire exploded. So I would have to test both of those openers as well. I already spent a good 6 hours doing openers this morning, then you bring that up. orz

I've gotten into a similar habit lately as well. I'm pretty much AFK beside the target dummy outside my FC house while I do stuff outside the game, and I'll come back every 3 minutes to practice an opener and get a feel for it.

I'd kill for an area (maybe in that upcoming beginner palace with the in-game parsers) that lets you reset cooldowns on demand. Make it a magic tile on the floor or something that does it when you walk over.

I also wouldn't mind a magic target dummy that nullifies your critrate, so you can compare sequences without RNG too. I hope you're reading this SE!

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Originally Posted by Ephier

Ah okay. Also the reason I do not use gauss round in the pre opener is because rapid fire speeds up the GCD to the point where gauss round won't be back up until after wildfire exploded. So I would have to test both of those openers as well. I already spent a good 6 hours doing openers this morning, then you bring that up. orz

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What about popping rapid fire right after lead shot? It speeds up your split shot so you'll only have about 1 second of wildfire without all your buffs, but that 1 second is also enough time for gauss round to come off cd and for you to use it.
e: no, this doesn't quite work. b4b and he definitely still drop off before your last gcd in wildfire.

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Originally Posted by girlsimulation

What about popping rapid fire right after lead shot? It speeds up your split shot so you'll only have about 1 second of wildfire without all your buffs, but that 1 second is also enough time for gauss round to come off cd and for you to use it.
e: no, this doesn't quite work. b4b and he definitely still drop off before your last gcd in wildfire.

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Also note, using RF first allows for you to pot without clipping after hot shot, as you will have the full 1.5s of GCD compared to casting and have 1s or less.

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Originally Posted by Myon88

I've gotten into a similar habit lately as well. I'm pretty much AFK beside the target dummy outside my FC house while I do stuff outside the game, and I'll come back every 3 minutes to practice an opener and get a feel for it.

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I'm assuming those three minutes of wait are for raging strikes? Run away from the dummy, change class, go back in machinist, it resets all cross class CD.

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Originally Posted by Ephier

Also note, using RF first allows for you to pot without clipping after hot shot, as you will have the full 1.5s of GCD compared to casting and have 1s or less.

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You also lose a whole GCD within Wildfire.

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Originally Posted by Lavieh

You also lose a whole GCD within Wildfire.

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Originally Posted by Ephier

Moving rapid fire to the prebuff instead of using it mid rotation means losing 1 skill off the wildfire, but in my testing has shown higher opening burst.

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Already addressed this in a previous post, which met the response.

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Originally Posted by Myon88

If you're just comparing Wildfire damage numbers you will certainly get larger numbers with an opener optimized to produce that, but that's not the whole picture.

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Basically weakens wildfire by 1 gcd to improve overall dps.

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Originally Posted by Myon88

The opener in this thread is rather outdated anyway. It's not like it's terrible (ok, maybe a little terrible), but things have been optimized a lot since then and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

It's just the nature of class forums like this unfortunately, if the OP never gets updated and there isn't a centralized information source it can be tricky for newcomers to find up to date information. I don't envy the guy having to search backward through 116 pages to piece together relevant bits.

If you ask me, it's more useful these days to compile these things in Google Docs or something. Easier to update, simple to share as links to people looking for information, and you can always read someone else's if you disagree with a particular author.

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Do we have anyone putting this stuff in a doc and updating it? If not I can look at starting that as long as people are willing to work together to keep it updated.

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Originally Posted by Ephier

Also note, using RF first allows for you to pot without clipping after hot shot, as you will have the full 1.5s of GCD compared to casting and have 1s or less.

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There is no chance that you aren't clipping a GCD by using a pot after HS with RF up. The time you are unable to use a WS after using a pot is like 2 seconds or so. Maybe it's possible with JP latency but Medicine and Food make it take forever to cast a new GCD. Also, do you have any proof that opening with RF ends up as higher DPS? I find it hard to believe seeing as how I'm pretty sure I played with that a long time ago but I'm not 100% sure. Not saying you're wrong. Just saying that I would like something more concrete than just word of mouth.

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Originally Posted by Phyllo

I'm assuming those three minutes of wait are for raging strikes? Run away from the dummy, change class, go back in machinist, it resets all cross class CD.

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You got it, Raging Strikes. I actually didn't know about the cross class thing, I guess I've learned something new today!

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Originally Posted by Griffeth

Do we have anyone putting this stuff in a doc and updating it? If not I can look at starting that as long as people are willing to work together to keep it updated.

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I seem to recall seeing one floating around before, but the names are escaping me right now. These kinds of things are intrinsically democratic in nature anyway, anyone's more than free to make one, and it will get bookmarked if people like what they're reading.

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Originally Posted by Haxetc

Snip.

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But you get the point latency aside. You have more time to use your pot when you have used rapid Fire first effectively clipping less GCD. As for proof, no I do not as this is very simple for one to test themselves. I never laid it down as concrete evidence just something for the community to look at. Put rapid fire in the beginning as the first skill used in prebuff and put gauss round in its place in the rotation so Rico/GR will be used at the same time.

I tried the gauss round startup opener, indeed it came up again before wildfire exploded. However, I'm getting lower numbers in comparison to Aiurily opener :(.

I will try the rf prebuff opener. Hmmm. Rf will come up early for the second wildfire in this case.

I took the liberty of running each opener 10 times and recording total damage done in ACT. Used a macro to manually end encounters after Wildfire detonates, and checked against number of hits to make sure no parse is getting things like extra Lead Shot ticks due to me ending the encounter earlier or later. All were done completely unbuffed, no buffs, food, or potions.

(number of hits)damage done, Wildfire damage

Double Gauss Round opener,
(32)42211, 6406
(32)43625, 6751
(32)42267, 6379
(32)42290, 6513
(32)41900, 6384
(32)42162, 6450
(32)42355, 6426
(32)42731, 6522
(32)41893, 6478
(32)43665, 6658

Average,
(32)42647, 6497

Single Gauss Round opener,
(30)41039, 6531
(30)43101, 6718
(30)42056, 6984
(30)41778, 6786
(30)41132, 6773
(30)42299, 6920
(30)40280, 6666 :cool:
(30)41123, 6616
(30)40690, 6643
(30)41417, 6642

Average,
(30)41492, 6728

I used this double Gauss Round opener, http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post3264822
and this single Gauss Round one, http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post3264432

I won't type them all out as I've already gone over the post limit as it is. Now this is just a sample size of 10 each, so obviously you'd take it with a grain of salt, but even from this small set you can already see how the general principle behind each opener is reflected in the data.

One is highly optimized for Wildfire damage, while the other has lower Wildfire numbers but greater total damage.

32 hits vs 30 hits, because the double Gauss Round opener has an extra Gauss Round, and an extra normal turret shot (due to Hypercharge timing giving you an extra one), which also explains why Wildfire damage can be lower yet total damage done greater. An important thing to note is that the double Gauss Round opener takes 1 second longer due to the casting of that extra Gauss Round, so it technically has 1 more second to DPS which is partly why total damage done is greater.

So the real question is, if the single Gauss Round opener's parse were to end 1 second later, would it catch up to or overtake in total damage done?

Roughly 1 second, and roughly a 1000~'ish damage deficit. Frankly it's too close for me to call and I don't think you would notice a difference either way, if you were to use one or the other. This is splitting hairs to the highest degree after all.

It's technically not as simple as just extending a hypothetical parse by a single second too, as our rotations are very granular, and damage output doesn't come in smooth 1 second ticks. You might have a Split Shot dealing 1200 damage, 1.4 seconds later, with a 1000 damage ogcd tacked onto it, and then a pause with no damage for 2.5 seconds... you get what I mean, it's complicated.

Hello

2 Gauss Rounds:
1º--> Base Potency: 180 + Passive Trait (+20%) + Gauss Barrel (+30%) + HE (~+8%) + Blood for Blood (+10%) + Raging Strikes (+20%) = 400 potency
2º--> Base Potency: 180 + Passive Trait (+20%) + Gauss Barrel (+30%) + Wildfire (+25%) = 351 Potency
1º+2º= 400+351 = 751 potency

1 Gauss Round:
Base Potency: 180 + Passive Trait (+20%) + Gauss Barrel (+30%) + HE (~+8%) + Blood for Blood (+10%) + Raging Strikes (+20%) + Wildfire (25%) = 500 potency

If You use 2 Gauss Rounds You are getting more overall damage, but if You use just one, you get better burst during Wildfire.

Precisely, it ultimately hinges on whether getting that extra bit of damage is worth the GCD spent casting it.

To illustrate it another way, imagine that we suddenly got a new trait that gave Ricochet a 20 second cooldown, same as Gauss Round.

Now, at 300 potency, Ricochet is obviously so lucrative to use that you would be more than happy to let it 'jump the queue' in your opener, so to speak.

You would find a way to fit another cast of Ricochet in at all costs, even if it means shifting everything else 1 GCD further back. Because no matter what you happen to be doing at the time, if a 1 GCD, 300 potency attack lights up, chances are it's going to be a better option than whatever you were doing anyway.

So the question is, at 180 potency, is Gauss Round lucrative enough to warrant the same behavior? You would obviously modify your opener to accomodate a double-Ricochet because it's just that worth it, and you would maybe do it for Gauss Round. So it's a matter of degrees, at some point between 300 and 0 potency it goes from being "Worth it" to "Not worth it".

It's odd because I just checked yesterday and I still pull more dps with the single GR than I do with the double GR, if I remember correctly I was around 1800 with single GR and only 1600 with double GR.

Edit: I hadn't thought of comparing the actual damage dealt rather than the dps parse, I'll check when I get back online.

(On a side note, machinist burst is just outrageously high when you get a lot of critical xD)

Well...I think for the most part right now wildfire damage really comes down to crits in a raid setting. I've hit 9k+ (2.1/2.2k dps burst) wildfires and then averaged out to 1400 or so on the first phase in AS3 and then other times only had a 7.5-8k (2k dps burst) wildfire and hit 1500 or so on the first phase because of lucky crits/procs.

I'd say the most annoying thing about machinist is the pretty big variance the class has which is why I think they are doing the quick reload change. On a dummy parse It's not very noticeable or a big change in overall dps when you get unlucky but in a raid setting with party buffs/pots/food it can be a pretty big difference if you get lucky or not which is the most frustrating when you are trying to reach the same numbers every time.

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Originally Posted by Sevyn

I'd say the most annoying thing about machinist is the pretty big variance the class has which is why I think they are doing the quick reload change.

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They are changing quick reload?

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Originally Posted by Ephier

They are changing quick reload?

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There were some talks/hints in the Live Letter I believe about it. We will have to wait and see

On another note. I am going to start working on a google doc version of the guide posted here and working to update it with information that we have adjusted. Any major stuff that we need to make sure gets changed from the front page info here (besides the adjusted opener)

Here is the basic draft I have put together for the google doc.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

Changes so far: Potency updates, opener updates, Added bookmarks for easy navigation. If anyone has a better way of doing this please let me know.
Needs: Updated BiS with savage/eso gear (I have a tentative one there)

Hmm... I didn't see anything in the live letter update thread about Quick Reload. It either wasn't important enough to mention or it was just missed.

Lots of people viewing the document so far. Any and all feedback on it is appreciated so feel free to let me know what we would like changed or what you guys want different. A lot of the initial information is from the first page guide and I will be working to customize it and change up some of the formatting.

For those comparing the 2xGR opener and the single GR opener, you can't just say "You get two GR's vs. One". More like you get roughly a half of a GR, meaning that this is only 50% effective. You'd have to end a fight on that 10 second timeline in order to gain any benefit from using GR first.

You also need to consider the rough .5 second delay that you are delaying your first GCD.

So basically we are comparing 50% of a GR vs. 25% of your average GCD potency. It is roughly 90 Potency vs. ~46 Potency (average GCD potency).

We should also compare the potencies of the fully buffed GR vs. The GR with only half buffs.

Pre-Pop GR would have: (180 * 1.2(IADII) * 1.3(GB) * 1.1(B4B) * 1.15(HE) * 1.2(RS)) = 426 Potency
Not Full buffed GR w/ WF : (180 * 1.2(IADII) * 1.3(GB) *1.05 (HS) * 1.05(HC))/.9 (Piercing) = 343 *1.25 = 429.975

vs.

Fully buffed GR : (180 * 1.2(~Dex pot) * 1.2(IADII) * 1.3(GB) * 1.1(B4B) * 1.15(HE) * 1.2(RS) * 1.05(HS) * 1.05(HC))/.9 (Piercing) = 626.59 * 1.25 (WF) = 783 Potency



From here, we just need to add the two GR's to get their overall value. Then take the fully buffed GR, add half of a GR and add 1/4th of your average GCD. We can then compare the values to see what is better.


429 + 426 = 855(2x GR) vs. 783 + 90 + 44 = 917(1xGR)

So 1x GR may still be better. I would need to put it into a spreadsheet to see exactly which one is better.

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Originally Posted by Griffeth

Lots of people viewing the document so far. Any and all feedback on it is appreciated so feel free to let me know what we would like changed or what you guys want different. A lot of the initial information is from the first page guide and I will be working to customize it and change up some of the formatting.

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I found something "bad" in the BiS list.
Head slot, BiS list pick Machinist's Goggles, when Gordian Hood Of Aiming is better by far.

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Originally Posted by Greywolfamakir

I found something "bad" in the BiS list.
Head slot, BiS list pick Machinist's Goggles, when Gordian Hood Of Aiming is better by far.

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Good job on posting any reason why you think that. How about you explain how 21 crit beats 58 sks.

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Originally Posted by Greywolfamakir

I found something "bad" in the BiS list.
Head slot, BiS list pick Machinist's Goggles, when Gordian Hood Of Aiming is better by far.

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Its the same dex, a 17 crit difference and I do not believe we need the accuracy so that is wasted as far as the itemization budget goes.

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Originally Posted by Griffeth

Its the same dex, a 17 crit difference and I do not believe we need the accuracy so that is wasted as far as the itemization budget goes.

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You need roughly 640 accuracy to meet the AS4 frontal accuracy cap. The build listed in the guide for 3.05 is the perfect BiS build we should be going for. You can eat Baked Pipira for AS4 and Morel Salad for every other turn.

While obviously not as important, I wish there was a BiS list for those of us who can't do Savage for some reason or other (like working 7 days a week).

hey jus a few questions as a nub machinist..which stats are better for secondary stats (det,crit,ss)? i ask this for the best food to take...does det affect damage with GB on? , crit i like seeing high crit hits but i dont know exact numbers, and ss ive noticed for my WF burst..i seem to be able to fit in a extra attack. but i dont know which is more effecient for duration of fight.

also another question is after looking at most rotations posted here..i wanna ask why do u guys pre buff everything before even pull? doesnt that waste secs per buff..like lets use A1S for example..even correctly lined up wit tanks pull..you running up during buffs stilll wastes the time pressing buttons n moving..but im on ps4 so i dont know if its easier for pc to do that.
- also, since alot of people agree that weakest buff first towards strongest buff for maximum WF output, then why isnt hot shot first? since its only 5% and it also lasts the longest, so you will have full effect till end, only diff is non buffed HS, but you can add in another GCD, even split or able to complete the 2nd slug or clean shot in time.
- also i dont know too much about turret auto attacks, but do they attack when you attack or when tank pulls? if it only atacks what you attack then your first move should always be a attack.
- regarding to that too, do people have GB on in beginning? if so, i dont get why, especiailly if your just using buffs, wouldn't it be better to let yourself do 1-2 AA dmg during buffing time than to start off with GB.
-since thats quite a bit of questions..i dont know if this would be a prefered starter since i dont know much of the question mechanics.
but.. [ GB OFF, tank pulls, hot shot, buffs(during this time your turret and you AA will be attacking too if the turret question was when you attack), as your buffs are going off, your AA will increase too up till the point you need to do lead shot, then GB b4 LS --> standard rotation] based on my own testings on ps4, it seems this way im able to fit my entire rotation w/ buffs ending like literally last shot..but if i had GB / hotshot..then it wouldnt get to the last slug or clean..but could also be a latency? i dunno..i have a macro to swap me to a completely new set jus for rotation going with everything thing in order... (pretty much like pressing 1-10 on controller)

TLDR shorter questions
#1 - best secondary stat between crit,det,SS
#2 - Why prebuff before even hitting the boss?
#3 - GB in beginning or during buffing stage?
#4 - Why not use hotshot first since its longest buff duration?
#5 - do turrets attack only when you attack or when tank engages?

#2, You're wasting seconds of buffs no matter when you use them, it's unavoidable because we just have so many buffs to activate.

Consider these two sequences,

BFB, HE, RS, Boss pull
Hot Shot, Potion...

Boss pull, BFB, HE, RS
Hot Shot, Potion...

Whenever you use Hawk Eye, you're 'wasting' one GCD of BFB's uptime to cast it, this is unavoidable. When you use Raging Strikes, you're wasting one GCD of BFB and Hawk Eye's uptime to cast it too. You get the same benefit to your damage outpit from the buffs in all cases, 20 seconds of Raging Strikes, 19 seconds of Hawk Eye, and 18 seconds of BFB (roughly). It doesn't change whether you do it before the pull or afterwards.

However, by doing it before the fight, at least you don't lose out on DPS on boss while enrage timers are ticking down. In the second case, you just spent 3 seconds of the enrage timer doing no DPS and just casting buffs, while in the former case you can start actually hitting the boss much quicker.

It's like running a marathon - putting your shoes on is gonna take 10 seconds no matter what, and it doesn't give you credit toward completion. Would you rather do it before the race or after the starting gun has fired?

#5, Turrets don't attack until you yourself attack, or something hits you and turns on "battle mode". So before the pull, you can cast it near the boss and it won't aggro the boss.

hm ok then, if turret doesnt attack untill you attack, then wouldnt it be better to start off attacking with hot shot first? without gb, as you do buff rotation, you are auto attacking while ur turret is attacking too, so realisticallly you arent wasting anytime jus standing there, buffing right after firs hotshot gives u AA n turret attack which is a GCD with the buffs. and also extends ur buffs to the end of the WF


im sorry about inproper sentencing spacing, not too good with eng formatting, but i meant to say, start hotshot first without GB instead of buffing everything during or for hotshot can actually benefit your last "slug or clean" shot more due to the cast time u didnt spend on hotshot.

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Originally Posted by KilluaKhan

hm ok then, if turret doesnt attack untill you attack, then wouldnt it be better to start off attacking with hot shot first?

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If I understand this right, in this case you'll just be achieving the same thing as the method that casts buffs during the pre-pull period.

You start attacking the moment the boss is pulled too, but because you haven't casted any buffs yet, you have to do this GB-off thing to try and weave autoattack/turret damage in while casting your buffs. You can also turn GB-off for the first Hot Shot for the buff during pre-pull method, so that's an advantage both can use.

Also, those GCDs that you spend casting buffs aren't free too (even though you might be DPSing inbetween them). Reason being that someone who has already casted those buffs beforehand, can use those periods to weave damaging ogcds instead - allowing them to put things on cooldown faster, and cycle through the first use of them faster.

I suppose you could argue that if you activate them during the pre-pull period, by the time the boss is actually pulled and you attack, the first buff only has 17 seconds left, the second has 18 seconds, and so on. But activating them on the go will let autoattacks and turret shots benefit immediately from the 20s mark.

It's a bit more complicated than this though, because apart from Hot Shot, there isn't anything else in the opener you want GB to be off for. Definitely not Lead Shot, and all your 1-2-3 combo weaponskills are instant with procs from Reload/Quick Reload.