The Negative Impact of Poor Character Writing on the Quality of Dawntrail's MSQ

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Originally Posted by TELOS

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the story of this game has been a "whose genocide/omnicide is more justified" pissing contest since the beginning, but especially since Shadowbringers. The Hunting Logs having the sentient races in them is a contentious topic. The entire Ascian plotline is literally this. Even G'raha Tia is willing to erase an entire timeline and all the people who live in it because he misses his friends – the only reason why he doesn't have consequences is because... well, actually, it's never explained, so we don't know why.

I fail to see what the issue is all of a sudden when Venat's Sundering cutscene is one of the more highly regarded cutscenes in the game.

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G'raha Tia didn't "erase a whole timeline because he misses his friends". He was trying to save the world, by going back in time and getting the person most likely to be able to save the First, and in the process, stop the 8th Umbral Calamity from happening. Were you reading the story at all?

Also, he didn't erase that timeline, it's still going on somewhere, he's just not there anymore. We actually have a short story about that.

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Originally Posted by duckorz

What makes FFXIV special is how Natsuko Ishikawa treats its characters.

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I mean I think we're putting so much weight on Ishikawa being a master writer, after all she did write in the Endwalker MSQ "And then the Warrior of Light stands there awestruck and watches as how the most important political person in Radz-at-Han gets eaten by a monster".

That being said, I liked reading through your analysis, but some of the points I wanted to challenge were already challenged by another person. I honestly want the MSQ to be a better thing to experience through, I enjoyed Dawntrail, but I'll say that i'm honestly disastisfied with the story not for the quality of the writing or characters, but because it has the same predictable structure we've been getting for the past 7 years.

I think the only thing I wanted to add is that comparing Namikka to Venat or the Crystal Exarch is kind of unfair given the weight of each character in the story.

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Originally Posted by ClayyLmao

Agreed. If Sphene-bot, at the very end had been like "No, you're wrong Wuk, I am right" and then died, I think it would've been a better way for Wuk to have to face the fact that you can't just Talk No Jutsu your way out of every problem.

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Having just done the last trial (and finish DT), I was expecting Sphene to say "I hate you. You destroy my people" (okay that might be a bit OOC from Sphene, but I desperately want the game to stop agreeing with Wuk).

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Originally Posted by chizLemons

G'raha Tia didn't "erase a whole timeline because he misses his friends". He was trying to save the world, by going back in time and getting the person most likely to be able to save the First, and in the process, stop the 8th Umbral Calamity from happening. Were you reading the story at all?

Also, he didn't erase that timeline, it's still going on somewhere, he's just not there anymore. We actually have a short story about that.

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To add to this.
It wasn’t his decision alone.
Many people came together and said „yes it’s worth the risk of us being erased for a better timeline somewhere else“.
There was resistance but even that is implied to have died down at the end when Midgardsommr was beginning to help and Omega „reawakened“.

That timeline is bleak but it’s also full of hope.
The Ascians may win there but they will absolutely not have an easy time because everyone is now united against them.

I wish we got more short stories from there.
I really wonder if the Ascians win there how Emet Selch and Elidibus will look back.
Will they be full of regret?
Because I don‘t think the „new rejoined“ people would look kindly at it all.

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Originally Posted by chizLemons

G'raha Tia didn't "erase a whole timeline because he misses his friends". He was trying to save the world, by going back in time and getting the person most likely to be able to save the First, and in the process, stop the 8th Umbral Calamity from happening. Were you reading the story at all?

Also, he didn't erase that timeline, it's still going on somewhere, he's just not there anymore. We actually have a short story about that.

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He did it to save the world, huh? Which world? Definitely not his world as he abandoned it taking with him knowledge and technology that could have greatly improved the lives of the people living in the world he abandoned. Was the Source in a bad state after the eighth umbral calamity? Yes. But the Source has been in a bad state after every umbral calamity, and people have rebuilt. And thanks to the short story we know that they will rebuild again...just without the help of the Exarch and the Crystal Tower.

Maybe you think the First is the world he wanted to save. Why? Until he traveled there he knew nothing about them. The truth is he rewrote time to undo the death of one person fully expecting that action to erase himself and the original timeline. And actually, I'm okay with that. I'm okay with G'raha being so in love with the WoL that he was willing to delete an entire timeline to save them. What I'm not okay with is the preachiness and 'forge ahead' nonsense when we're over here rewriting time to get our desired outcomes. The hypocrisy is galling.

Because say saving the First was his true goal. Once we find out what caused the Flood, G'raha could have gone back in time again and warned Ardbert saving the entire planet from the Flood. Now THAT would be saving the world. So why is that never considered? Because his actual goal has been met, the WoL is alive and that's all he cares about. Also, if he did go back in time again, the timeline would split again so while A First would be spared the pain and suffering brought on by the Flood, OUR First would remain unchanged. And to that, I say exactly.

If this is all about saving the world, why don't we go back to before the creation of Meteion and warn the convocation? That'd be saving the world too, wouldn't it?

But no, the past is the past. You must forge ahead and soldier on...unless the WoL drops dead then time to dropkick time and space into the trash bin because some things are more important than a timeline full of people. Am I right?

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Originally Posted by chizLemons

G'raha Tia didn't "erase a whole timeline because he misses his friends". He was trying to save the world, by going back in time and getting the person most likely to be able to save the First, and in the process, stop the 8th Umbral Calamity from happening. Were you reading the story at all?

Also, he didn't erase that timeline, it's still going on somewhere, he's just not there anymore. We actually have a short story about that.

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I know he didn't erase the timeline. I read the short story. I'm also talking about exclusively his motivation/intent. He didn't care if he was going to erase the timeline, and in that exact short story they talk about how it's a possibility. They all knew it was a risk, and he did it anyway.

And I'm also saying there's no lore reason why he didn't erase the timeline. Considering what Endwalker's treatment of the Ancients was, where you explicitly cannot change the events of the past, it's a head-scratcher.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

Genocide is the destruction of a people on the basis of identity. Is G'raha wiping out the timeline because of the group identity or is his motivation missing his friends? Which is it? You cannot call him genocidal just because his actions result in a large scale death. Just because you may have been abusing the word forever, does not make it ok. Also as someone else noted, the timeline is just stranded and didn't result in mass death.

Ancients and Endless aren't even human, even in the context of the storytelling. It's a needless and excessive term to use. The Ancients were in a philosophical conflict and even in the case of the sacrifices, weren't targeting people for any specific reason (well at least not yet).

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1) You are missing the forest for the trees. There's no need to be pedantic about genocide.

2) In my post, I specifically included omnicide, which is the killing of an entire universe, which absolutely includes an erased timeline. G'raha Tia was willing to erase a timeline. He may not have actually done it for reasons unknown, but he accepted those consequences.

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Originally Posted by Voidmage

To add to this.
It wasn’t his decision alone.
Many people came together and said „yes it’s worth the risk of us being erased for a better timeline somewhere else“.
There was resistance but even that is implied to have died down at the end when Midgardsommr was beginning to help and Omega „reawakened“.

That timeline is bleak but it’s also full of hope.
The Ascians may win there but they will absolutely not have an easy time because everyone is now united against them.

I wish we got more short stories from there.
I really wonder if the Ascians win there how Emet Selch and Elidibus will look back.
Will they be full of regret?
Because I don‘t think the „new rejoined“ people would look kindly at it all.

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If "it wasn't his decision alone" is a good reason to justify it, then there should be no qualms with shutting down the Endless, as they were all on-board with the decision.

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Originally Posted by Lady_Silvermoon

He did it to save the world, huh? Which world? Definitely not his world (...snip for lenght)

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You didn't read the short story I linked, did you? I recommend going back to it.

Although I do very much enjoy the idea of G'raha Tia being madly in love with the WoL, that's not the canon reason. It's clear that his admiration of the WoL as a hero played a huge part because of the amount of hope and trust he had on them, and he did personally want to save the WoL. So much so that he was willing to sacrifice himself in the end, AFTER saving the First - which no, he didn't want to save for any personal connection at first, but as explained in the MSQ, it's an important step to stopping the 8th Umbral Calamity: he had to stop the rejoining. But it wasn't a decision he made alone. They decided it was worth the risk, if not for them, then for another timeline, where the calamity wouldn't happen. It's in that story.

Also, the Crystal Tower isn't presented as an easy to use time machine that can go back and forth at will anytime he wants. He arrived in the First after the Flood of Light already happened, and I think it's been also mentioned that they didn't have control of when exactly would he arrive there, considering how time flows differently. He just needed to arrive before the death of the WoL. His plan was based on what he knew from the Source, because there was no way he had any knowledge about the First other than knowing about the rejoining.

Also quoting Voidmage's response:

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Originally Posted by Voidmage

To add to this.
It wasn’t his decision alone.
Many people came together and said „yes it’s worth the risk of us being erased for a better timeline somewhere else“.
There was resistance but even that is implied to have died down at the end when Midgardsommr was beginning to help and Omega „reawakened“.

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Even if G'ahara original time lined got erased, it will still be stupid to call his action genocidal. He didn't come up with the plan, he was entrusted with it by the very people at risk of being erased. This is like accusing a doctor who performing a consented euthanasia on terminally ill patients "murderer". Yes, someone people truly believe that, doesn't make them right.

But people always use the most extreme and hyperbolic words to push their message, what else is news?