making nin and drg top rdps is wrong.., just like mnk..
players tend to want buffing classes, .. making them top rdps too is making them the meta again by far..
sam and blm should be top Rdps (yes, rdps), .. not by much though. (so much dps, that a drg and nin with their buffs are still a tick behind)
blm and sam should be followed by pur dps drg ans nin.. (both with buffs)
and mch close next to drg and nin (with its high mobily),
than followed by mnk and smn (both with buffs and utility)
mnk and smn should be equally-ish.. like blm and sam should be
......
atm mnk is too strong, and nin (way) too weak..
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08-21-2019, 08:17 PMShiroe
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08-21-2019, 09:14 PMDortharl
I think this is the only mmo I have ever played where mobility is considered when deciding on dps.
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08-21-2019, 09:30 PMVendalwindNo. Just simply no. Im saying it again....Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiroe
I agree with Miralyths post, rdps needs to have incentive or its completely without value.
I just cant see how people still think having blm and sam as top rdps would be healthy.
That is literally not the case. Blm and samurai encourage selfish play. Utility classes encourage team play. Team play must be rewarded. And team play at its best will always require contribution from the selfish classes.
At the end of the day when a nin has a big rdps he doesnt own it. The whole team owns that big nin rdps percentile. Nin cannot do it without the team, and in fact is exceptionally underpowered in sub 8 man content even more so. When a selfish dps has the big rdps it wasnt anybodies doing but their own.
When a nin has that big parse in my theoretical balance view they honestly dont own that parse, cause like 12% of their parse is basically 7 other people working with them.
If you honestly believe the selfish dps should be able to on their own outdo the contribution and team efforts of 8 people then you and I cannot have a conversation.
Whenever blm and mch have the highest dps they will aaaaalllways, at all percentiles, be the most desired class. And will have a guaranteed spot in every single party.
If nin with the high skill ceiling and monk with the high skill ceiling etc. Have the highest spot then blm and sam are not only still desirable in pugs and by people that want to be independent, but are still held in extreme importance as the highest pdps contributors to every single party with amy buffer in it.
I honestly think people that dont understand this either A: just want their big dps and are elitist, or B do not understand what rDPS even is.
Ive tried to say it in so many words so many times, but people dont seem to understand that this is basically unarguable fact for a healthy game comp balance where each class is viable. -
08-21-2019, 09:39 PMVendalwind
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...88#post5131288
Check this post of mine out and really think about how things would look. I personally even with this theoretical framework for balance would want UTIL with raises to be close in rDPS than 1.5k but tjats just how the numbers play out. And keep in mind that this is in my view wjat a full party wjere everyone got 75th percentiles and up should be able to achieve. If even one member fell below that threshold likely RAID type would fall closer to PURE type. -
08-21-2019, 10:20 PMLina_Slayer
This thread has too much theoretical balance and ideas of who should be above who, that are perfect logical in theory, but fall short as soon as you analyze the actual numbers, while the game itself has gross balance problems that make choosing some classes be the equivalent of playing the game on Hard Mode, we should not care for now who ends up being above and below, what needs to be done is to put everyone (and I mean everyone doesn't matter if your job have mobility, res, whatever) at ~500 rDPS of each other, it means big buffs to everyone below SAM, or nerfs to everyone above (but let's be realistic SE is not going to nerf) because right now 6 DPS jobs are surprisingly balanced.
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08-21-2019, 10:27 PMEpicOverlord85
I don’t care how much damage my MNK (my main) spits out, I just want my 60 sec perfect balance back :/
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08-21-2019, 11:30 PMTaiyouSeishinIf Selfish dps outperform utility dps, the utility becomes worthless, because having two selfish dps is a bigger dps gain than having the utility.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiroe
You are either wanting SAM and BLM to be the new stackable Meta, or wanting utility to become redundant so it gets removed and everyone is made selfish dps.
Then people WILL complain about difficulty of class not being rewarding, because that will be all thays left. Then SE will knock all classes down to having 4 abilities, with a chance to proc a 5th so anyone doing more dps is just rng... oh then stats.
(Last paragraph is obviously partially an over exageration)
SameQuote:
Originally Posted by Dortharl
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08-21-2019, 11:49 PMLina_Slayer
People who have this perfectly logical at first idea that rdps from selfish jobs should be smaller than the rdps of utility jobs in higher performance, but bigger when performance drops, just answer me two things:
1- Do you believe that between them both, excluding everyone else, BLM and MNK are balanced?
2- You may not play any of the jobs, but based on feedback you've seen on the forums, do you think those jobs (BLM and MNK) have any huge gameplay problem that is affecting general satisfaction and thus need a large rework?
By thinking about those questions and taking a look at the site that should not be named, you guys can probably see my point, without me even making it. -
08-22-2019, 12:09 AMMichieltjuhh
The balance in this game is some of the worst I've ever experienced in an MMO.
The fact that MNK, DRG, BLM and (lesser extent) SAM get away with this big a dps gap just because they're supposedly 'harder to play' is absolutely laughable. I'd argue you may be correct if there was absolutely no way to reach max potential on any of them due to both complexity (impossible, Starcraft proves that you'd need to make them approximately 600 apm) and fight design. However, this game's fights are so insanely mapped out that you have to be really bad not to be able to optimize, AT LEAST to the point the other jobs can't even reach while playing 100% perfectly. All of the mentioned jobs have insanely powerful tools to have 100% uptime (other than boss being away) no matter the fight.
Then add the fact that the only true complexity is breaking the enrage timers. Suddenly this terrible imbalance is so important that playing any of the non-meta jobs makes you no better than a troll and absolutely not worth bringing. For example, once you've reached enrage, nobody cares if you're having fun playing your SMN or RDM when you can just change to BLM, roll your head on the keyboard, play terrible, get a ~20% parse (aka bottom 20% of BLM players) and still beat what you'd have done on SMN or RDM, thus making that required raid dps easier to obtain.
Why's it taking this long to just gut a few of their numbers? I don't want to see other jobs buffed, I want these 4 gutted, so enrage timers are still meaningful. -
08-22-2019, 12:15 AMChimiko
People are saying that there is no teamwork for the selfish dps guy hence he shouldnt do as much rDPS as the other. I feel thats wrong.
Whatever you may say or may think. Playing a SAM for example isent as easy as people make it out to be. Else all the SAM's out there would be doing super good. And we all know that there are so many SAM's who can barly do rotation properly.
Second of all, people saying that there is no teamwork for selfish dps. I mean we adjust our rotation acording to other jobs buffs to gain benefit of them. You have to click 1 button to activate your buffs, some jobs have to change their entire rotation just so it fits within the time you do decide to press that button. That itself is "teamwork". You're working as a team to bring the dps needed to bring down the big baddie.
In all fairness, I do think BLM and MNK are a bit to over the top at the moment. NIN, SAM, SMN and RDM is struggling, the reason RDM is brought to raids is just cause they are so good during progression with that insta res.
In term of a dps ranking it should be something like this:
BLM/SAM - Yes they should be equal. The deciding factor should be uptime on the boss. If the boss is tons of movement then BLM should be under SAM, if the boss requires melee to disengage all the time the BLM should be on top.
MNK/MCH
DRG/SMN
BRD/RDM/NIN
DNC
In this order to be honest. Noone likes to be at the bottom but someone has to, but it shouldnt be a 4k diffrence between a perfect scenario DNC and a perfect scenario BLM/SAM. That's just bad class balance.
The issue right now is that its to much of a diffrence between the top jobs and the bottom jobs. It's insane how much more damage and rDPS a BLM/MNK do compared to a DNC.
What needs to happen is to shrink the gap between top dps and bottom dps to make all jobs viable. Some through rDPS and some through just pure raw damage. Give BLM/SAM/MCH something that benefits them for reciving buffs other than just what the buff do.
Or we go back to the synergy meta and we make caster groups and melee groups. 2 diffrent comps. Not sure how that would be doable but something like that atleast.