This Bard stacking thing needs to be dealt with

There is just no reason to bring in a Monk or Dragoon over a Bard at this point.

Another reason for this, is the game did not launch with natural raid progression, which only compounds the issue. We are using gear a tier below what should be worn in Binding Coil (aka we should have iLVL 80 gear from Crystal Tower, instead of the 70 Darklight gear.).

For veterans of the MMO genre, they know that melee almost always get the shaft compared to ranged, however it is much more noticeable in this game.

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Originally Posted by Mikedizzy

I would be very interested to see what Yoshi has to say about this...the game should have been designed to be beatable with a "mix" of classes like you are all saying. I am sure they must have tested this...right?? Or am I giving them too much credit. I don't think I am...they have to know the DPS and mechanics it takes to defeat the content...hell...they designed and set the numbers. Just because it is easier with multiple BARDS because that is what people have figured out what works first does not mean that is the end all be all of the game. Hey maybe in the later turns you will not want BARDS becasue of some reason...and then you need like 2 or 3 Monks to be most effective.

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Right now, one step is missing between Titan and Coil, so group optimization is different to what it should be.

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Originally Posted by Mikedizzy

I would be very interested to see what Yoshi has to say about this...the game should have been designed to be beatable with a "mix" of classes like you are all saying. I am sure they must have tested this...right?? Or am I giving them too much credit. I don't think I am...they have to know the DPS and mechanics it takes to defeat the content...hell...they \.

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I don't see the reason to be butt hurt , up until coil two, we've had this setup

2 whm *scholar would work*
2 Brd
1 Pld
1 War
1 Drg
1 Mnk

it works fine, that's actually pretty much every class except for black mage , smn , and scholar, which smn sucks, scholar is viable, and you have to have blm for turn 4.. soooo... yeah..

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Originally Posted by MartyMcfly

There is just no reason to bring in a Monk or Dragoon over a Bard at this point.

Another reason for this, is the game did not launch with natural raid progression, which only compounds the issue. We are using gear a tier below what should be worn in Binding Coil (aka we should have iLVL 80 gear from Crystal Tower, instead of the 70 Darklight gear.).

For veterans of the MMO genre, they know that melee almost always get the shaft compared to ranged, however it is much more noticeable in this game.

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This guys group on here is running Monk and says they are doing fine...why are you so angry then? They are getting it done. It may not be net, net best but it is working and therefore doable...if you are playing with jerks that are min/max bias then maybe switch who you are playing with and play with a party that will be more open to party organization.

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Originally Posted by Mikedizzy

This guys group on here is running Monk and says they are doing fine...why are you so angry then? They are getting it done. It may not be net, net best but it is working and therefore doable...if you are playing with jerks that are min/max bias then maybe switch who you are playing with and play with a party that will be more open to party organization.

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Content is doable up to a point with different raid compositions. But the content is definitely not tuned to having such groups.

I don't know what to tell you, but if you think melee and ranged DPS are on the same playing field, then you clearly haven't been experiencing the end game content. This same issue also applies to tanks.

Although the problems are compounded due to the skipping of a tier of loot, there are real balance issues in this game and that's what threads like these are about. Classes need fine tuning, as do game mechanics to ensure as fair of a playing field across the board.

Also, cut the internet tough guy crap and keep to the subject at hand.

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Originally Posted by RathSkybreaker

I don't see the reason to be butt hurt , up until coil two, we've had this setup

2 whm *scholar would work*
2 Brd
1 Pld
1 War
1 Drg
1 Mnk

it works fine, that's actually pretty much every class except for black mage , smn , and scholar, which smn sucks, scholar is viable, and you have to have blm for turn 4.. soooo... yeah..

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Why do people claim summoner sucks. Are they not the highest DPS class? (At least latest parsing tool says so, I think they fixed the DoT bugs)

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Originally Posted by savant07

Why do people claim summoner sucks. Are they not the highest DPS class? (At least latest parsing tool says so, I think they fixed the DoT bugs)

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The problem with the dots on parsers is that when a smn cast bio it gives them full dmg for the dot even if the smn cast over that spell with a new dot. I did titan the other day some dude says the smn did 200k dmg before heart..... I highly doubt that was true lol. Btw BG has cleared most of coil with mnk so it can be done with melee brd is just easy mode.


In 1.0 no one wanted to do the moogle king fight w.o brd then after a while ppl did it with anything.

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Originally Posted by Yenn

All of Summoner's abilities benefit from Foe Requiem.

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We made a quick test on dummy and it did not work.

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Originally Posted by Firon

The problem with the dots on parsers is that when a smn cast bio it gives them full dmg for the dot even if the smn cast over that spell with a new dot. I did titan the other day some dude says the smn did 200k dmg before heart..... I highly doubt that was true lol. Btw BG has cleared most of coil with mnk so it can be done with melee brd is just easy mode.


In 1.0 no one wanted to do the moogle king fight w.o brd then after a while ppl did it with anything.

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Didn't they fix that issue already? Including the issue with SMN DoTs doing more than expected damage? I figured it was accurate already with summoners doing 250-300 DPS consistently...

Smn is alright if you are good at the job, but you need the good gear and good style

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Originally Posted by RathSkybreaker

Smn is alright if you are good at the job, but you need the good gear and good style

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So bards and other DPS don't scale as well?

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Originally Posted by Thotor

We made a quick test on dummy and it did not work.

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I told you!

Go test like Thotor did before you make assumptions!

Also I agree that it doesn't seem like you want to bring melee over a bard.

Which is depressing. Buff melee!

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Originally Posted by savant07

So bards and other DPS don't scale as well?

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It's kind of weird.

Bard DPS is really easy, once you get the rotation down you can have some pretty beast DPS and overall Damage. However, a good MNK / DRG will always outparse a bard, their damage potential is much higher but the reason we're seeing so many bards atm is because their damage is good , and they are the safe bet. Summoner is a bit different. They are pretty garbage in AF, their damage is meh, etc etc, but when you get the relic, and start getting the gear, the dots start doing pretty well, and the DPS is actually worth it, we used a SMN in Turn 1 last night and he did extremely well, so that being said, SMN is one of those jobs that rely a lot on their stats. Yeah all jobs do, but you can get sick DPS on a bard with pretty garbage gear so I think smn is a bit more on the extreme side.

So to answer your question, I think Bards do not scale as well as other classes, MNK probably has the highest damage potential in the game right now, but it's also the most complicated class to play, in my opinion, and it gets way harder to play it in coil, but if you can get it down you will likely always top the charts.

I agree with RathSkybreaker bard dps is really easy, As for Raths comment on Bard dps being pretty sick in garbage gear this is pretty much like Hunter in WoW when expansions come out theres some classes that shine with little gear and others that catch up once they get some decent gear, Bard is pretty much give them a decent wep and some gear there dps is nice there a safe option right now for coil, Once people start to get relic +1's and coil loot bards will start to scale off and drop back in dps once again just like hunters in WoW they end up mid table. which as a "support" class i think Mid table dps on all fights is fine. We have amazing mobility and people are crying because we can dps while moving yet good and same gear level monks and dragoons out dps us and summoners and BLM with good gear crush us so to the people crying for bards nerfs just wait to get some gear ^^.

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Originally Posted by RathSkybreaker

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If only we actually had a working DPS parser or simulator to get a definite answer.

Having a great time in Turn 4 without 2 BRD. Either BRD gives us MP and our DRG is TP starved, or he gives us TP and I'm MP starved. This is ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by RathSkybreaker

It's kind of weird.

Bard DPS is really easy, once you get the rotation down you can have some pretty beast DPS and overall Damage. However, a good MNK / DRG will always outparse a bard, their damage potential is much higher but the reason we're seeing so many bards atm is because their damage is good , and they are the safe bet.

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you have bad bards if you think that. Sorry but my guild was 5th to kill turn 4 we dropped our melee because their DPS is just flat lower then any ranged. The issue is bard DPS is not "easy mode" like mos of the forum trolls like to make believe. TO really be good at it not only do you have o stay on top of 5 DPS cooldowns using them in conjuction with the dots you have to manage them around the songs as to not incur the full 20% DPS nerf while playin a song. There is a MASSIVE damage difference in any of the bards you find in one of the top 10 world progression guilds then your average bard. None of the bards you see in the top progression vids will EVER be out DPSed by any melee even while playing songs the way the game currently is. Bards are built around using songs so their DPS is balanced around song usage.


In short if you have any melee beating a bard the bard is garbage plain and simple. Any of the bard from the top guilds will tell you that. The ONLY thing in game right now that can out DPS a top end bard is an top end summoner and that is simply because they are broken.

I must admit is is funny when someone who has yet to clear the top content says that the top guilds are "doing it wrong"

What makes a summoner broken? Insanely high DPS? Are they really doing that much DPS? 30-50% higher than any other? Or is there some sort of mechanic that is currently bugged or broken?

If it is DPS, are there really accurate parses or are they still buggy but let's trust them anyways since they're close enough?

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Originally Posted by savant07

What makes a summoner broken? Insanely high DPS? Are they really doing that much DPS? 30-50% higher than any other? Or is there some sort of mechanic that is currently bugged or broken?

If it is DPS, are there really accurate parses or are they still buggy but let's trust them anyways since they're close enough?

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if played right they do up to 50% more DPS then a bard can without playing a song then their pet adds more on top of that.I have tested it with Fakebook the top summoner in my guild. We are the top 2 DPS on our server basically. We have had titan fights where he has beat me by over 100 DPS and i do more then 200 on titan when doing our carries.

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Originally Posted by Eckoh

if played right they do 50% more DPS then a bard can without playing a song then their pet adds more on top of that

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Wow they are broken haha. I guess everyone who said they were low DPS were all wrong. How'd you get this data? If they are doing 50% more DPS, I guess everyone who claimed they did 300++ DPS even without full DL wasn't lying O_O

Wait, if that's the case, why not stack summoners along with bards? Or 3 summoners?

EDIT: What's Fakebook and how accurate is it?

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Originally Posted by savant07

Wow they are broken haha. I guess everyone who said they were low DPS were all wrong. How'd you get this data? If they are doing 50% more DPS, I guess everyone who claimed they did 300++ DPS even without full DL wasn't lying O_O

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over 300 without darklight is a bit much... however with darklight and a +1 relic it is possible on some encounters.

I tested side by side with him on the 50 dummies near dragonhead and i do progression with one. Fakebook is the only one that regularly out DPSes me but he does it more often then not.

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Originally Posted by Eckoh

over 300 without darklight is a bit much... however with darklight and a +1 relic it is possible on some encounters.

I tested side by side with him on the 50 dummies near dragonhead and i do progression with one. Fakebook is the only one that regularly out DPSes me but he does it more often then not.

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Did you use a parsing tool or did you calculate it manually?

LOL I thought Fakebook was an parsing tool

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Originally Posted by Eckoh

Sorry but my guild was 5th to kill turn 4 we dropped our melee because their DPS is just flat lower then any ranged.

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As a monk this makes me sad, stop it! :P

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Originally Posted by Teeko

As a monk this makes me sad, stop it! :P

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sorry but our monks have leveled new classes because of how bad they are in coil. On paper they are great but in actual raids they are a liability :(

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Originally Posted by savant07

Did you use a parsing tool or did you calculate it manually?

LOL I thought Fakebook was an parsing tool

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we were both running multiple parsers to get a wider range of data and they al pretty much showed the same things.. summoners when played right are OP. One thing to be careful of when you have multipleof the same class in groups the parsers get less accurate s they can give one persons damage to someone else. One night in coild all my dot damage was given to the other bard, so take the parser data with a grain of salt in encounters. However using them to adjust gear and rotations via a dummy they are solid as you are looking for changes up or down rather then an aples or oranges comparison

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Originally Posted by Teeko

As a monk this makes me sad, stop it! :P

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As a monk, you should be happy that you have an awesome Limit Break!

Hmm would be nice to have the breakdowns and the damage down per spell so we know that it is accurate. But thanks for the testing. Confirms what I've been thinking and theorycrafting.

Why are you guys still saying stuff like "summoner does 50% more dps than all dps class, and pet on top of that". It was a simple bug in the parser. If you put down a dot, then did a ruin, it would make each dot tick count as dot+ruin damage instead of just normal dot damage. Example, dot ticks for 20, ruin hits for 100. Each tick of the dot was counting as 120, even though it was only 20. The guy who made the parser made this crystal clear. Anything you are seeing with the summoner just tearing things apart like a madman....you are mistaken.

Make yourself a summoner if you really doubt it.

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Originally Posted by Eckoh

sorry but our monks have leveled new classes because of how bad they are in coil. On paper they are great but in actual raids they are a liability :(

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Initially, I would say that it's a matter of how the raid is set up. Perhaps by forcing range to move in closer it would fix the issue. But due to BRD's mechanic that would only cause the casters to drop in DPS. Based on this thread's discussion, it would seem that the BRD class may be trivializing some of the end game content.

If perhaps the BRD has a cast time on, lets say, Heavy Shot (similar to WoW hunter's Steady Shot) this would certainly force them to stand still. Or, as an alternative, provide the BRD another mechanic in which they are given an incentive for being stationary. This would keep the BRD a mobile class, but would give them a penalty for moving. The BRD can still kite, but the damage is reduced significantly.

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Originally Posted by Shmashed

Why are you guys still saying stuff like "summoner does 50% more dps than all dps class, and pet on top of that". It was a simple bug in the parser. If you put down a dot, then did a ruin, it would make each dot tick count as dot+ruin damage instead of just normal dot damage. Example, dot ticks for 20, ruin hits for 100. Each tick of the dot was counting as 120, even though it was only 20. The guy who made the parser made this crystal clear. Anything you are seeing with the summoner just tearing things apart like a madman....you are mistaken.

Make yourself a summoner if you really doubt it.

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This is a new bug then? Thought they fixed all the issues with summoner DoTs. Haven't checked it out but summoners have always been tearing it up number wise even without parsers though so it's believable overall to have summoners doing 250-300

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Originally Posted by SKDLaeys

Initially, I would say that it's a matter of how the raid is set up. Perhaps by forcing range to move in closer it would fix the issue. But due to BRD's mechanic that would only cause the casters to drop in DPS

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you missed the point all together.. melee is a liablity because of cleaves and tail swipes ontop of just being inferior damage. It wouldn't matter if the bard had to stand still to do heavy shot, they would still be better damage. Bards are brought by the top guilds not just because of songs but because of their superior damage to all melee. With good players the songs are not really needed that much. Infact on turn 4 we never used them because its not a heal check its a DPS check.

Also a good bard is not gonna run round simply because they can.. Bad ones wil because they are bad... If you do not have a reason to move there is no point in moving. Bards are not trivializing end game content... if they were more people would be past turn 4 then the dozen or so groups currently

No I understand what this thread is about and I understand your point. My post was just my initial thought regarding the Bard mechanic and a bandaid solution to the problem. But clearly that's not a good enough means to fix it. What would you suggest?

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Originally Posted by SKDLaeys

No I understand what this thread is about and I understand your point. My post was just my initial thought regarding the Bard mechanic and a bandaid solution to the problem. But clearly that's not a good enough means to fix it. What would you suggest?

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there is nothing to fix honestly. The top guilds are not taking melee because they are a liability with that content. Bards are better DPS and like with all ranged they are not position dependent. Coil fist boss for example, has a 1 shot tail swipe that is triggers when someone gets behind him, both goons and monks have attacks that MUST be done from behind, he also has a frontal cleave which will kill a non tank and the boss has to be moved as to not spawn unwanted slimes.

ADS has PBAOE attacks that melee must move out of which lowers their DPS due to no fault of their own. On top of that tor is simply easier to deal with when it is as far away from the tanks as possible.

Turn 4 melee simply cannot match ranged in terms of AoE damage aswell as many of the mobs do 360 AoEs that cause melee o either reduce damage or need more heals wasting healer GCDs.

There is simply no upside to taking that. That is not to say you cannot kill the content with them, because my guild has done it. However for new progression we drop the melee just because its easier without them which is unfortunate.

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Originally Posted by Eckoh

there is nothing to fix honestly. The top guilds are not taking melee because they are a liability with that content. Bards are better DPS and like with all ranged they are not position dependent. Coil fist boss for example, has a 1 shot tail swipe that is triggers when someone gets behind him, both goons and monks have attacks that MUST be done from behind, he also has a frontal cleave which will kill a non tank and the boss has to be moved as to not spawn unwanted slimes.
snip
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This ultimately sounds like design fail and one I've been seeing over and over again when a game tries to have a more action oriented style (read: dodge the red death).

RIFT suffered from this design decision for it's hard mode end-game dungeons as well where attempts to make the fight difficult by imposing positioning restrictions made a sizeable portion of the available classes useless due to having to constantly move the boss or heavily penalizing close ranged attacks.

It especially doesn't help if the other comments are true that melee DPS is inferior to ranged.

As people have said, ranged is a safer bet because it's easier to avoid the mechanics that cause you pain when you're not hugging the mob. To my eyes, this should be weighed against the amount of damage/utility these classes can provide.

Perhaps the melees need a boost in spike damage to compensate for long disconnects and punishing positional requirements.

This is a design flaw in almost every MMOs.
There is limited mechanics to make content harder and unfortunately those impacts melee the most.

the issue with upping melee damage is on fights where there is no "disconnect" they become OP. Melee can and do work. The issue is it takes a superior player to be that aware. I played melee for nearly 10 years and i went to ranged simply because i did not want that level of stress anymore. I will have monk alt at some point just for S&Gs but i will not progression raid on melee in this game.However i wil likely go back to it in Wildstar.

One thing they can do is cut down on the positional requirements for melee. The melee "dance" is a it over the top for monks especially. Its a fun idea but not really much fun in an active raid setting.

From my experience, any MMO that has a ranged dps that is fully mobile leads to a balancing nightmare, as once it is introduced and then the mobility is nerfed, it directly impacts fun factor. I wouldn't wish that on anyone who really enjoys the bard's playstyle.

One boss I did had this 360 degree whirl attack that only hits melee for absolutely no reason whatsoever. There was zero benefit to having me in that fight as a monk over my bard because I just flat out required more healing. It makes me question if any of these MMO designers play melee dps at all :(

Now I am extremely stubborn about which classes I like to play in a game, as I naturally find myself avoiding the FOTM classes in favor of trying to play the maximum out of the "underdog". If monks are being sat, it would be a difficult thing for me to reroll as I am enjoying myself.

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From my experience, any MMO that has a ranged dps that is fully mobile leads to a balancing nightmare, as once it is introduced and then the mobility is nerfed, it directly impacts fun factor. I wouldn't wish that on anyone who really enjoys the bard's playstyle.

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Balance shouldn't be that hard if people enjoy the class.

In most case, the nerf are coming because those that stay at 3rd or 4th place in DPS ranking are jealous of the 1st DPS.

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Originally Posted by Swick

sounds terrible to me, low DPS if constantly singing, and who's Foe's for, the one remaining DPS who actually uses elemental attacks?

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Bard have 3 spells that use elements... vem sting, wind bite ,and flame arrow

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However for new progression we drop the melee just because its easier without them which is unfortunate.

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I come from a game where pretty much maybe like 10%, well NOT even 10% of the playerbase play melee dps, simply because "it's too hard". Melee pretty much depend on one single factor, and its called tanks more than anything else. Sure AoEs and cleaves can be a danger, and they are even some questionnable mechanics that make boss hinder & one shot the WHOLE party if someone get touched simply by the hitbox of.

You re sayin that Caduceus for example got a one shot tail swipe, then my question is, is it actually possible to rotate a crowd control rotation in order to be able to hit him from behind when your melee need to buff up ?

You don't have to be close to the boss or the mob to use combos and you also can SPRINT while comboin, which make stuff trivial when they are these slow and large aoes and you gotta hit stuff to buff up / debuff.

(About that boss hinderin people in the game im comin from, you can still perfectly do it as a melee without a single problem if you know how to move.)

Its not because people are bad, that its not doable. This game is not even 1 month old, not a single person know how to play it perfectly, timing wise, in each encounter. Nobody, and it'll come. I'm one of these melee exclusive player and I'm havin a blast in this game because its based on accuracy, timing & movement.

The only thing that make me /nods sometimes is that my Heavy Trust doesnt work when a mob is movin toward a tank if I attack him from the flank, it work if I attack from the front and then turn the camera ... otherwise, as a melee, I freakin love the experience. That whole sprint thingy that let you begin a combo in an AoE at a point you want, then you sprint out while still beein doin the movement even if you re not close to the boss anymore, will count. Don't understand why people are just not movin at all and then blamin the game design.