Stunbot is NOT fun

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Originally Posted by Colyo

how about everyone stops standing in shit then a single missed stun wouldnt kill the lot of you

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DF doesn't care, glass cannon FTW
i really hope they will make ifrit immune to stun

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Originally Posted by Tyrial

This is a rather ridiculous post..."Pics or it didn't happen!". Just because you can't do it or have never seen it happen doesn't mean that a single tank can't handle both tanking Ifrit and stunning Eruption. I've personally done it many times, despite being told it was "impossible". It's merely a case of learning the pattern in his attacks and properly managing your GCD so that you're always ready with the stun.

Add to this the fact that stunning isn't even necessary to win the fight since by the time you're level 50 you should have learned to not stand in the bad stuff. Eruption is blatantly obvious, it's kinda hard to miss the glowing cracks under your feet.

What I would suggest to you is grabbing a group from your FC so that you don't have to deal with snobbish DF trash that always seems to show up (yes, I'm talking about the same ones who drop party as soon as they see there's no AoE LB) and practice it. Roll with the standard DF setup of two tanks and just work on timing your GCDs. What I found helped me the most was working as much DPS as I could in between stuns when I was the off-tank, then when I was comfortable with the pattern I just told my group that I wanted to try to tank and stun.

Just remember that pre-Nails he'll always do an Eruption immediately following the Rush when he lands in front of you and again immediately following his knock back move (can't recall the name of it). Post-Nails it's a simple pattern of Plumes > Plumes > Eruption > Plumes > Eruption > Rush.

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Recall that I stated I believe it can be done. The point of showing proof is to convince the DF a-holes who cuss out PLDs for missing a single interrupt and rage-quit after a single failed attempt. Nothing short of hard evidence will convince them that their method is not the only method.

Now that I've run this several times (and finally got my weapon) I don't have any trouble interrupting, but I still find the whole Trial horribly dull. It's ridiculously hard when you're new, and ridiculously trivial when you're experienced. 1-button to victory... whoopie...

As I recall Ifrit pre-Nails does not always Erupt right after Crimson Cyclones. As often as not he'll throw out a fire breath and even one or two knockbacks before he Erupts, and even when he does Erupt first the exact second of it always varies.

Also, I'm all for people learning to GTFO from AoEs, but post-50% HP Eruptions cover most of the map, so is it really avoidable at that point? Has anyone here successfully run Ifrit HM as a DD/Healer without any Eruptions getting interrupted? We give them a lot of flak for not understanding our role, but do we really understand theirs?

Why is the PLD stunning in the first place? Other classes can stun. Let them do it. If they die, tell them they can be the stun-bitch.

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Originally Posted by ZenBear

You're not the first to say this, but I've yet to see anyone prove it. If you have a link to a video that shows yourself or some other PLD tanking HM Ifrit and interrupting him, pleas add it as I'm sure everyone would like to see it.

I don't doubt your claim, but the "stun bot" mechanic has been so prevalent since launch that I feel the only way to banish it from the current meta is to provide hard evidence disproving its necessity.

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I could easily do so,

Phase 1 - Eruption after Dash, Eruption shortly after Vulcan
Phase 2 - Eruption after Radiant Plume (Exterior) Eruption after Radiant Plume (Interior) Eruption shortly after Infernal Nails spawns
Phase 3 - Eruption after Radiant Plume (Exterior) and (Interior) Eruption shortly after Radiant Plume (Entire Map)

Its rather simple once you've got the patterns down

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Originally Posted by Toranja

Why is the PLD stunning in the first place? Other classes can stun. Let them do it. If they die, tell them they can be the stun-bitch.

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no CD on stun

and since there are 2 tanks and only 1 boss to be tanked....

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Originally Posted by Tyrial

Add to this the fact that stunning isn't even necessary to win the fight since by the time you're level 50 you should have learned to not stand in the bad stuff. Eruption is blatantly obvious, it's kinda hard to miss the glowing cracks under your feet.

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Interrupting Eruptions has the added benefit of charging up your LB bar, especially during pre-Infernal Nails as not interrupting Eruptions in Phase 1 & 2 (before nails) would ensure that you will not have a Lv.3 LB during the Nails phase

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

no CD on stun

and since there are 2 tanks and only 1 boss to be tanked....

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There's 4 DDs and one boss to be damaged, so... Plus, the class that is best apt to be should be the stun-bitch is the LNC.

If I was a PLD, I would just show up on the HM Ifrit fight and refuse to stun. You DDs have legs and stuns. Use them.

I know this all has been said but just gonna put out my experience. It freaking sucks being the stunner, whats the point of even having a mechanic like this in a game? To torture one particular player?

Zone out for a few millisecond everyone's dead and mad at you. I just say "Resist" every time I miss, usually no one bothers to check the log. I'm human I zone off at times and I make mistakes.

I'm 0/38 on Ifrit's fire sword(approximately) so I hope you all understand my bitterness :p

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Originally Posted by ReiszRie

I could easily do so

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Read the post you quoted: I never say "It can't be done." In fact my exact wording is "I don't doubt your claim"

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Originally Posted by Toranja

There's 4 DDs and one boss to be damaged, so... Plus, the class that is best apt to be should be the stun-bitch is the LNC.

If I was a PLD, I would just show up on the HM Ifrit fight and refuse to stun. You DDs have legs and stuns. Use them.

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DRG Stun 20sec CD
MNK Stun 20/40sec CD
WAR Stun 30sec CD
PLD Stun 2,5sec CD

can you see now why PLDs are good stunnbitches? xD

Ifrit needs to be made harder. Solo tank and stunbotted ifrit today all at once. second tank D/C or something but we just ended up letting Ifrit cast eruption through first phase then since second and third phase are on easily recognized patterns I was able to just interrupt him while maintaining threat the entire time.... Granted i have done this bastard pushing 40 times now, sword still has not dropped, and have his patterns perfectly memorized but still he should not be so predictable.

at this point i am done with Ifrit and will just have to progress without the sword. Future PLDs, save time and just get the WP drop.

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Originally Posted by Rios-Drakoon

DRG Stun 20sec CD
MNK Stun 20/40sec CD
WAR Stun 30sec CD
PLD Stun 2,5sec CD

can you see now why PLDs are good stunnbitches? xD

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Looking at the patterns cited by the PLDs who MT and stun at the same time, I don't see why a DRG can't handle stuns. Eruptions don't happen very often, certainly never less than 3 seconds apart, thus rendering the 2.5 CD overkill.

Also, why can nobody find the . key? I keep seeing , being used in its place. :P

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Originally Posted by Illya

The Hydra has a 2-tank mechanic where both tanks stack on each other to split Triumvirate's damage. That's a mechanic borrowed straight out of WoW. So it's not as if they don't know about 2-tank mechanics. What they do with the 2-tanks paradigm is I guess up to them to figure out

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Yet another player who thinks WoW created the mmo genre or had the most well known ideas first. FFXI has had mechanics for years where dmg was shared out and split amongst all those caught in it (10,000 needles or vitriolic barrage anyone?) Even before the skills i mentioned there were scenarios where having 1 tank would be very very risky or pretty much result in a wipe if the 1 tank died, like back when ppl at 75 cap actualy geared for -PDT for byakko's triple attacks or direction swipes and that included nin tanks.

dont give credit where credit isnt due. SE dont need to "figure out" what to do with 2 tank mechanics like they are some newbies to the idea. They brought ffxiv back from the brink, give them some credit and well deserved benefit of the doubt for future coming fights aswell.

After doing this ad nauseam yesterday (no PLD sword dropped, obviously) I think that this deserves some kind of achievement or something.

I would be fine by having Ifrit's face's silouette engraved on my shield. I've slammed my shield on his face so many times that it has to be already there..

xD

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Originally Posted by Janda

Yet another player who thinks WoW created the mmo genre or had the most well known ideas first. FFXI has had mechanics for years where dmg was shared out and split amongst all those caught in it (10,000 needles or vitriolic barrage anyone?) Even before the skills i mentioned there were scenarios where having 1 tank would be very very risky or pretty much result in a wipe if the 1 tank died, like back when ppl at 75 cap actualy geared for -PDT for byakko's triple attacks or direction swipes and that included nin tanks.

dont give credit where credit isnt due. SE dont need to "figure out" what to do with 2 tank mechanics like they are some newbies to the idea. They brought ffxiv back from the brink, give them some credit and well deserved benefit of the doubt for future coming fights aswell.

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WoW fanboi, they are everywhere and they think their game is the source of everything :P

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Originally Posted by Kenka

I would be fine by having Ifrit's face's silouette engraved on my shield. I've slammed my shield on his face so many times that it has to be already there..

xD

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but u slammed his ass....u really want that on your shield? :P

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Originally Posted by Amayasu

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Make Ifrit immune to stuns. Every mechanic can be countered by Stuns and a mage LB.

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Indeed. It'd be one thing if Ifrit were like General Vezzax; that is to say, if Ifrit had a spell that was unavoidable and HAD to be stunned/interrupted or it was insta-wipe for the raid. It's another when you become overly reliant on one job to stun a perfectly avoidable mechanic that chances are the devs meant for you to avoid instead of make trivial via stuns. Not even getting to the concept level of things and asking "how the hell is a primal like Ifrit susceptible to stuns when Garuda and Titan aren't? Is he just that much of a chump compared to them?".

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Originally Posted by Daas

Crazy question, but if the eruptions can be avoided rather than interrupted, why not replace the stunbot with some more competent and aware dps?

Oh wait ... nm.

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If I actually sat down and thought about it along with the mechanics of the Ifrit fight, I could come up with a pretty good reason to have a second tank for Ifrit.

Here's a sample:

Adjustments

Bowl of Embers (Hard)

- Ifrit has been made immune to stun effects and abilities
- An additional enemy called "Infernal Concubine" will be summoned by Ifrit during certain intervals of the battle

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Excerpt from a fictional wiki article on the HM Ifrit fight:

- At 95, 75, and 55% Ifrit will summon an Infernal Concubine to join the fight.

Infernal Concubine abilities:

- Hell Wreath: Debuff placed on one random raid member. After three seconds, the target begins taking fire damage for 15 seconds. The target explodes if they walk or run while under this effect, damaging the target and all players within 20 yalms for 9,001 damage. Can be removed with Esuna
- Smoldering Rock: Hurls a fiery boulder at a random raid member that is not the tank, dealing 10,000 damage split between the target and all players within 8 yalms of the target.
- Caress of Flames: 5-second cast time. Heals Ifrit for 150% of the Concubine's current HP.

Yes, I purposely created a mob that would screw with the raid's mobility, which is pretty damn important for Ifrit while giving the second tank a mob to hold aggro on in lieu of being stun-bot. Obviously need tweaking but meh.

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

but u slammed his ass....u really want that on your shield? :P

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Er.. Er..

Good point..

Just as an update, I seem to have my stuns down and don't miss any eruptions. Regardless, I still hate the job. Hopefully the mechanic will be removed, but as it stands SE is dead silent about what the hell their plans are with this game other than taking a month to fix server issues.

I'm a Paladin and honestly this doesn't bother me. If its for the good of the group then do it. I catch on to his patterns and throw in CoS and RoH combo and still stun effectively so I'm not bored. But being a paladin your stun is more reliable because its on a GC and not a 20/30s CD. Yea of course a melee class could do a stun rotation or something along the lines no problem but while they are anticipating an Eruption that's DPS that a PLD can't make up for. If done properly Ifrit HM is not hard at all so maybe those few seconds of no DPS from 1 class is no big deal but if I can do something better and easier then another class then why not? We're all in it for the win. I find it to be a small sacrifice if any considering not ALL bosses are this way (bosses that fully resist stun always) so to me... I take it for the team.

What's not fun is people ignoring my request to not use any stuns/interrupts and when you get fully resisted and ask if someone is using one they blatantly lie about not using them...lol. Other than that, no one should ever wipe due to stuns imo.

As a paladin tank this was by far the easiest fight for me. I one shot it almost every time. It's awesome knowing that everyone else in the group can kind of suck and I can carry them all just by hitting my interrupts. It was great I loved it.

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Originally Posted by Prince_Myshkin

stunbot...not fair blah blah

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Welcome to the real MMO world where the person with 'that skill' is sometimes exploited for it.


You're only whining because it effects you...but a good team player knows 'sometimes i have to have less fun for the betterment of the group'. Also, isn't a tanks job to Protect the party from a a bosses damage?
...in Ifrit that means stunning.

...and trust me, you don't want your abilty to stun taken away.

Lastly, you don't need to stun Ifrit to win, it makes it far easier on the party, but the battle isn't based around having that one mechanic.


So shame on the party for solely relying on the PLD to stun and not just being proactive and getting out of danger...but just like tanks expect healers to heal and Esuna etc, and DPS to keep proper rotations...Tanks are expected to perform their party role well. In Ifrit, if you are a PLD learn to Stun.

/endthread

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

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The naivete of this made me lol

Couldn't agree with this OP more. Not only that, I've had a number of times where others, often dragoons are stunning, making my stuns completely resisted, but I get the flack for it ;_;

Especially if I don't realize someone else is stunning, then I think I'm missing the cue . . . and then I look over the battle log. Stun resisted, stun resisted, stun resisted . . .

And this is speaking nothing of latency.

The lag was arguably worse in 1.0 and people had no trouble dodging Eruptions. People are just being really, really lazy. Honestly they dumbed down Ifrit way too much.

As PLDs we do everything already, so why not add Stun to the mix?

Stunbot is the job of anyone with a stun. I have no idea why you are complaining about having an extra ability, and a STUN at that. If you don't want to stun, then don't. Sure it would make you a horrible player but it would be the same as not having it at all.

And yes, "stunbotting" is fun. iI you suck and can't handle it, then tell the group you can't handle it. If you have latency issue, then say so. Tanks are not the only ones who can stun but if all you have is a bard, smn, or blm, then you just gotta suck up the responsibility. If your group rage over something like this and leave, then good riddance; assholes like that would had left from a wipe no matter what caused it. Lastly, I have only heard of a very small handful of fights where victory depends on this and none where you HAVE to do it.

To be completely honest, Ifrit is braindead easy, even without a PLD stunner and even if I was solo tanking (which I have before). The main problem with Ifrit isn't the stuns, but rather his 99% scripted pattern. His abilities aren't dangerous and it's all complete repetition. I really hope Ifrit Extreme is a lot more interesting.

As for PLD being exploited for stuns, once the newbie feeling wears off, it feels like a normal fight, so I can't say I mind it. But I will say I'd rather be tanking something or having some form of party coordination.

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Originally Posted by Rainbow_Dash

Probably because they want offtanks doing the stunning, but what it ends up being is simply a coordination check. If you keep track of the ability sequence on something like Ifrit hardmode, where the pattern is extremely rigid, one mindful tank can do the work of what is usually left to two.

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I understand that, I still just don't understand the logic of Shield Bash. It has a pretty steep TP cost and is on the GCD. Brutal Swing for Warrior is off the GCD and free, but had a long cooldown. There's an unhealthy discrepancy there to me, and both of them should be fairly similar. There's only 2 tanking roles in the game, and both should have a similar cooldown. Either make shield bash similar to Brutal Swing (free, off GCD, cooldown) or make Brutal Swing like Shield Bash (TP cost, on GCD, no cooldown).

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Originally Posted by JonGordon

I one shot it almost every time.

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You can one shot Ifrit?

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Originally Posted by Nova_Dresden

I understand that, I still just don't understand the logic of Shield Bash. It has a pretty steep TP cost and is on the GCD. Brutal Swing for Warrior is off the GCD and free, but had a long cooldown. There's an unhealthy discrepancy there to me, and both of them should be fairly similar. There's only 2 tanking roles in the game, and both should have a similar cooldown. Either make shield bash similar to Brutal Swing (free, off GCD, cooldown) or make Brutal Swing like Shield Bash (TP cost, on GCD, no cooldown).

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Agreed. Also since Warrior is a tank, give him a shield. Also I've seen other players summon helpers, I want that too since they have that. And while were at it, I'll take a fairy.

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Originally Posted by TheGlow

You can one shot Ifrit?

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The phrase "one-shot" on bosses usually means they downed the boss on the first try with no failures. Fail once and it's two-shot, and so on.

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Originally Posted by TheGlow

Agreed. Also since Warrior is a tank, give him a shield. Also I've seen other players summon helpers, I want that too since they have that. And while were at it, I'll take a fairy.

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Nah, Warrior seems to mimic Death Knight in WoW. Lotta self-heals, good damage output, and uses 2-handed weapon. Giving them a shield also means giving them a one-handed weapon. And since weapons define class you gotta be specific about what weapon it is. It can't be a sword or a dagger because those are Gladiator/Paladin weapons. One-handed axe might work, but then it can't be used for any future classes added to the game (lotta people I know want BST to be added and that would probably be the weapon for them.)

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Originally Posted by ReiszRie

I could easily do so,

Phase 1 - Eruption after Dash, Eruption shortly after Vulcan
Phase 2 - Eruption after Radiant Plume (Exterior) Eruption after Radiant Plume (Interior) Eruption shortly after Infernal Nails spawns
Phase 3 - Eruption after Radiant Plume (Exterior) and (Interior) Eruption shortly after Radiant Plume (Entire Map)

Its rather simple once you've got the patterns down

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This ^

I am MTing and interrupting Ifrit the whole time, why waste another Tank spot in a premade group if I can take care of both...his pattern is super easy and all you have to do is hold off on your GCD abilities when you know Eruption is coming in the next 5seconds~

Phase 1 Eruption (first one) is easier to predict though if you see him using his flame breath and then the push back move. That's when he is gonna use Eruption for the very first time.

If somebody leaves the group because either you missed the stun, or it resisted. They can enjoy waiting in queue while you instantly get another group.

Having to stun eruptions can be fun while you're also the MT. ;)

Overall though I agree, a simple fix would be to just put it off the GCD and add a small CD to it.

I just tried Ifrit HM for the first time last night, and found that my biggest problem was accidentally interrupting plumes (which I did a few times). I'm now reading there there is an actual pattern, which nobody in the DF bothered telling me. Knowing this now will make the fight a lot easier. (I suspect nobody told me because they didn't actually know.)

Of course, I feel the OP's pain. I've tanked in multiple MMOs for years and the one thing I've gotten used to is DPS players in PUGs who simply want to be carried to free loot. You will run into these people unless you pre-form every time. They expect the tanks and healers to perform flawlessly so they can sit in one spot, spam their rotations (often incorrectly) and ignore as many fight mechanics as possible. This is all well and good, except when I'm trying to actually learn the encounter myself.

Admittedly, I've not raided so this might be incredibly dumb and I don't know, but at level 10 marauder gets a move called Brutal Swing which is an instant cast stun that's not on the GCD with a 30 second recast, so why not take a Warrior for it? If you want a PLD tank just make sure the warrior's not using Defiance, and they should be able to stun-bot easily and provide a little extra damage.

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Originally Posted by Zavokka

Admittedly, I've not raided so this might be incredibly dumb and I don't know, but at level 10 marauder gets a move called Brutal Swing which is an instant cast stun that's not on the GCD with a 30 second recast, so why not take a Warrior for it? If you want a PLD tank just make sure the warrior's not using Defiance, and they should be able to stun-bot easily and provide a little extra damage.

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You have to interrupt more often than every 30 sec. A rotation between multiple players would work, but that's more effort than letting a PLD stand there and auto-attack.

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Originally Posted by Prince_Myshkin

I Don't want to do the thing that helps my group succeed because i don't like doing it.

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About sum it up?

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Originally Posted by Kuvu

The problem with the ifriti fight is that you have to run so god damn many times. I am sick and tired of running it for a weapon that i never seen drop to just stun every time....... it is the most boring fight i have even been forced to do and if you want the weapon you are forced to do it.

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Your not forced to do it, you don't need the weapon you want the weapon, the level 50 GC weapon is only 1 or 2 points behind the Ifrit weapon so it is not needed. I completely understand the grind on this fight its an ascetic weapon getting it is actually an accomplishment because of the low drop rate and having to roll against others, my biggest complaint is that it should not drop weapons for classes that are not in the party because at that point nobody wins.