Poor FFXIV

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Originally Posted by Rau

FFvXIII looks great, and XIII-2 looks awesome as well.

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Final Fantasy versus XIII does look good, but ill do without FF XIII-2 :/

OP is trollbait =D

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Originally Posted by Ventus

OP is trollbait =D

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shut up ventus

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Originally Posted by Vanguard319

Hell, the original game was to be the last game published by Square before declaring bankruptcy back in the 80's. (Hence the "Final") I honestly doubt most of the so-called fanboys who are whining about how the franchise is going downhill had ever heard about the series or even cared until FF7 came out.

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hmm i played ff3 3,4 and 6 before 7 so yah....

Was Final really meant to mean the last game? what was it called before that? just Fantasy?

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Originally Posted by rianshima

hmm i played ff3 3,4 and 6 before 7 so yah....

Was Final really meant to mean the last game? what was it called before that? just Fantasy?

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Square was facing troubled times like the above poster stated and they were definitely considering bankruptcy, so the company decided to make their FINAL game, it was called Final Fantasy (we know it as Final Fantasy 1). The game was such a huge success it for the most part saved the company and laid the ground work for all the following Final Fantasy's.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

You see, the error in logic you're making here is that you are putting forth the premise that your opinion is fact. It is not. "Exceptional", "Great", "Good".... these are all subjective words. You may think something is bad, but someone else thinks it's good.

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Obviously, i am saying that based on strictly empirical data. Data i gathered by frequenting FF communities in the last 14 years(the first site i ever browsed on the internet was a FF fansite), reading reviews, arguing every game that came out since, growing with them. Data any long time fan can see and gather. With this simple knowledge i can easily say (and i tried to explain it in my previous posts) that the fan community as a whole has a large number of people having my same opinion.

Just read this thread. How many people liked 6-9, found 10 ok and disliked, or have negative things to say about 12 and 13? It's not even a matter of statistics, it's just the running opinion. I can step in any generic FF forum and find lots of people agreeing with it. This is the cold fact i am basing my opinion on it.

If you take two games and ask people "which one is better" you will clearly have more or less fired up opinions on both and you won't be able to call one game better than the other without making a statistic or careful analysis, however when you hear people say "i liked these four games of the series, then they went downhill", it's already a form of statistic because it summarizes opinions about every single of those games. It's a lot harder for two people to agree on a series of opinions like this. Therefore, when you see lots of people agreeing on such a specific series of opinions you can guess that there is a certain phenomenon at work that must be correlating them.

Finally, looking for the cause of such phenomenon, you have two choices. It's either the players or the games themselves. However, between millions of players from different nationalities, different social statuses, radically different cultural backgrounds and a single company with few persistent heads and leaders, which one is more likely to be the cause?
The answer won't be 100% reliable, but it's a good starting guess.

Everyone seems to enjoy arguing what makes a Final Fantasy game, so here's my share of the pie...

From my research and playing, there is only one major theme which is shared by ALL main-stream Final Fantasy titles, and that's Crystals, and they generally play a major part in the plots as well. Not even chocobos or tonberries or airships come as close.

SPOILERS FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVEN'T PLAYED THE GAMES/RESEARCHED

FFI - All four of the main characters have a Crystal, and Garland has one as well. The main characters channel power through their four crystals into Garland's to get the world out of a time loop.

FFII - You get Ultima from them, and stat-boosts. Crystal Rod is essential to the obtaining of those.

FFIII - Eight Crystals in total, 4 Light, 4 Dark. A crystal choose the main cast to restore power to the Crystals, and the Dark Crystals aid in making the final boss kill-able.

FFIV - Same as FF3, eight Crystals. Well, 18 in total, counting the one which teleports you to the Moon and the 9 which are able to restrain Zeromus' power. Last one enables you to kill Zeromus.

FFV - Four Crystals, each controlling one of the world's elements. Was responsible in aiding to seal Exdeath, and later restoring the world.

FFVI - Exists as Magicite, the crystals used for summoning Espers after their flesh has deteriorated into the crystal. Used by the main cast and sought out by the villains throughout the game.

FFVII - Materia, life energy of the Planet crystallised into a solid form. Can cast spells with them, summon etc. Also a major plot device with the Holy and Meteor materia.

FFVIII - The huge-ass Crystal held inside the Lunatic Pandora; spawns the periodic Lunar Cry which brings monsters down onto the world's surface. Seen as an evil force in this game.

FFIX - The source of all life, and allows the few summoners to do their job. Also a plot device with the Terrans sealing themselves within Crystals to await reincarnation.

FFX - Not so much a plot device, but a tool. Crystal spheres are used as save points, save memories and events and even as keys.

FFXI - Used for synthesis when seen as a tool, and present as the Mothercrystals when seen as a plot device. In fact, too many types of Crystals to go into detail, but there are also Protocrystals, Gatecrystals, orbs and magicite.

FFXII - Crystals known as magicite, storing the magic energy known as Mist. Responsible for the running of machines and city-life, and also how the the Ivalice gods, the Occurian, gazed onto the world. A major plot device.

FFXIII - Seen as a plot device at it's core; the fal'Cie are run on crystals, and the main cast gain the power of summoning their Eidolons from their crystals.

FFXIV - Currently seen in synths and aetherytes. Also seen in a couple of storyline quests.

SPOILER END

Debate it however you want, but that's my interpretation of what lies at the core of every FF game.

Every game is different, so different people will like it. I liked FFXII, XIII, X and VIII, but I disliked VI and VII. Again, these are all open to your differing likes and dislikes, and the media cannot control that, no matter how hard it tries.

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Originally Posted by whoopeeragon

Everyone seems to enjoy arguing what makes a Final Fantasy game, so here's my share of the pie...

From my research and playing, there is only one major theme which is shared by ALL main-stream Final Fantasy titles, and that's crystals, and they generally play a major part in the plots as well. Not even chocobos or tonberries or airships come as close.

SPOILERS FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVEN'T PLAYED THE GAMES/RESEARCHED

FFI - All four of the main characters have a Crystal, and Garland has one as well. The main characters channel power through their four crystals into Garland's to get the world out of a time loop.

FFII - You get Ultima from them, and stat-boosts. Crystal Rod is essential to the obtaining of those.

FFIII - Eight Crystals in total, 4 Light, 4 Dark. A crystal choose the main cast to restore power to the Crystals, and the Dark Crystals aid in making the final boss kill-able.

FFIV - Same as FF3, eight Crystals. Well, 18 in total, counting the one which teleports you to the Moon and the 9 which are able to restrain Zeromus' power. Last one enables you to kill Zeromus.

FFV - Four Crystals, each controlling one of the world's elements. Was responsible in aiding to seal Exdeath, and later restoring the world.

FFVI - Exists as Magicite, the crystals used for summoning Espers after their flesh has deteriorated into the crystal. Used by the main cast and sought out by the villains throughout the game.

FFVII - Materia, life energy of the Planet crystallised into a solid form. Can cast spells with them, summon etc. Also a major plot device with the Holy and Meteor materia.

FFVIII - The huge-ass Crystal held inside the Lunatic Pandora; spawns the periodic Lunar Cry which brings monsters down onto the world's surface. Seen as an evil force in this game.

FFIX - The source of all life, and allows the few summoners to do their job. Also a plot device with the Terrans sealing themselves within Crystals to await reincarnation.

FFX - Not so much a plot device, but a tool. Crystal spheres are used as save points, save memories and events and even as keys.

FFXI - Used for synthesis when seen as a tool, and present as the Mothercrystals when seen as a plot device. In fact, too many types of Crystals to go into detail, but there are also Protocrystals, Gatecrystals, orbs and magicite.

FFXII - Crystals known as magicite, storing the magic energy known as Mist. Responsible for the running of machines and city-life, and also how the the Ivalice gods, the Occurian, gazed onto the world. A major plot device.

FFXIII - Seen as a plot device at it's core; the fal'Cie are run on crystals, and the main cast gain the power of summoning their Eidolons from their crystals.

FFXIV - Currently seen in synths and aetherytes. Also seen in a couple of storyline quests.

SPOILER END

Debate it however you want, but that's my interpretation of what lies at the core of every FF game.

Every game is different, so different people will like it. I liked FFXII, XIII, X and VIII, but I disliked VI and VII. Again, these are all open to your differing likes and dislikes, and the media cannot control that, no matter how hard it tries.

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There where no crystals in FFVI, FFVII, FFVIII......

XIII is like a Final Fantasy game for the simple people where they can hold the controller and pretend they're playing a game.

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Originally Posted by Ostia

There where no crystals in FFVI, FFVII, FFVIII......

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did you read whoopeeragon's post, because crystals and their correlation to the game, that he describe are all correct. Crystals are in every main Final Fantasy, they just don't always play an essential roll to the games plot.

Ostia, I can give you a full essay on how the Crystal is reincarnated into each of those games you have mentioned. Different names does not mean that they are not classified as Crystals. Magicite, materia, and heck, even the Lunatic Pandora's crystal was CALLED a crystal. Please READ my actual post. Or I will be tempted to write a full essay on each game's crystals and their function for the story and the playing.

EDIT: Thank you, Bled. -hugs-

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Originally Posted by Chezen

On it's worst day, FF title games are still better than any other game out there. Except this one, which I still like a lot.

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Dont be a Fan Boy, there are plenty of RPG'S that are 100% better than any FF Tittle(Except FFVI,FFT)

Suikoden II, Xenogears, OGTLUCT, DO, ME, CT, CC, Suikoden V, Legend of Heroes(The last trilogy), Ys etc etc.

FF is a good series, but it has been in decline since they been catering to the graphic whores.

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Originally Posted by whoopeeragon

Ostia, I can give you a full essay on how the Crystal is reincarnated into each of those games you have mentioned. Different names does not mean that they are not classified as Crystals. Magicite, materia, and heck, even the Lunatic Pandora's crystal was CALLED a crystal. Please READ my actual post. Or I will be tempted to write a full essay on each game's crystals and their function for the story and the playing.

EDIT: Thank you, Bled. -hugs-

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Sure tell me how Magicite from FFVI was a crystal.......

I sense trolling but I'll just leave this here:

Magicite is crystallization of an essence or substance, much like materia.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

I sense trolling but I'll just leave this here:

Magicite is crystallization of an essence or substance, much like materia.

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I sense a whiteknighting...... yeah sure magicite = crystals lol

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Originally Posted by Ostia

Sure tell me how Magicite from FFVI was a crystal.......

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http://images.wikia.com/egamia/images/2/2f/Magicite.png

looks a lot like crystals to me..

http://th07.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/...e_by_Orinn.jpg

Magicite is the stone form of an Esper. Once an Esper dies, they turn into Magicite.

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Originally Posted by Ostia

I sense a whiteknighting...... yeah sure magicite = crystals lol

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Ah so you legitimately are ignorant on that subject judging by using one of the dumbest terms on the net but also using it improperly.

I apologize.

@Bled:

Official description calls it a crystal as well lol.

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Originally Posted by Ostia

I sense a whiteknighting...... yeah sure magicite = crystals lol

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Ignorance is in no short supply.

Very well, I should expand on the Crystal term. Crystals in the FF series can be classified as crystals, stones or objects which have power over natural phenomena or instances, as well as functioning as magical energy. Is that a broader term for what can be considered a Crystal, or must I also debate the use of 'Stones' and 'objects'?

Oh wow, so SE likes to use similar elements in their games. Big discovery.

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Originally Posted by Kirith

Oh wow, so SE likes to use similar elements in their games. Big discovery.

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Well, it is definitely a subject everyone seems to enjoy debating about. What exactly classifies a game as a Final Fantasy game? The storyline and characters? The content like monsters, airships and crystals? Or the general feel towards the whole idea of a 'Final Fantasy'? It is up to your discretion to what a FF game is truly able to consider itself one.

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Originally Posted by Ostia

Dont be a Fan Boy, there are plenty of RPG'S that are 100% better than any FF Tittle(Except FFVI,FFT)

Suikoden II, Xenogears, OGTLUCT, DO, ME, CT, CC, Suikoden V, Legend of Heroes(The last trilogy), Ys etc etc.

FF is a good series, but it has been in decline since they been catering to the graphic whores.

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I've been thinking this for years. Graphics are great, dont get me wrong. But you can't been good old fashioned game play. Given the chance, who would be happy to re-play (or play) the first 9 titles in the series without updated graphics? I know I would. FF6 > FF13 any time :D

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Sorry dude, crappy games don't sell 6 million copies.

Also, the "lack of exploration" argument is very, very weak. There's no exploration in the vast majority of the previous FF games either. You can "wander the world"... but it doesn't get you anywhere. It's either just a bunch of random encounters while you see the mountains, forests and deserts they used as filler, or you find the rare town/city that you're not supposed to go to yet and are locked out of all the content.

There is no exploration. The "world map" is just there to give you the illusion. What they did in FFXIII was essentially "zoom in" on the characters. So instead of having a 3rd person and "orbital" view, you just have 3rd person.

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Did you even play previous games in the series? Look at Final Fantasy VIII. There was a lot to be gained from exploration, so you really are spouting nonsense.

And sales figures have nothing to do with how good a game is. After all, how can any of those 6 million buyers determine whether or not they like the game until they play it?

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Originally Posted by Clydey

Did you even play previous games in the series? Look at Final Fantasy VIII. There was a lot to be gained from exploration, so you really are spouting nonsense.

And sales figures have nothing to do with how good a game is. After all, how can any of those 6 million buyers determine whether or not they like the game until they play it?

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That may be true for the first few thousand sales, but if those people like the game... they will spread the word; whether on blogs, reviews or just by word of mouth. So as more and more people like and buy the game, these people will recommend it to their friends and it just perpetuates itself until it becomes like the game of the year or something. That's why you still see a few games that have been out for a while but stand in the BEST SELLERS section of gamestop.

This is why the first week sales are so important (when it meets the expected demand) in determining whether the game is a success or not.

FFXIII gets a bad rap. People complain about the western reviews praising it for doing something new, but they're absolutely right. I've been playing JRPGs for near 15 years now (starting with 7, but I've since played all the mainline FFs and a bunch of other RPGs as well) and the vast majority have similar battle systems, character types, stories, etc. I personally never much cared for the ATB system since it seemed like a false sense of "urgency" being stuffed into what is inarguably a turn based system, which is why I loved FFX's commitment to the turn based tactical aspect of it.

However after all this time with turn based systems, people were (rightly) complaining about these systems being very slow paced and kind of boring, especially when you had to use them to fight hundreds or thousands of random battles. So while the rest of the genre has been stagnating, and the sales have plummeted to reflect that fact, SE has been innovating.

First with FFXII's "FFXI offline" system, that I quite liked as an FFXI player, but seemed fairly unpopular outside the MMO player circle. Also FFXII was like Star Wars with Chocobos, that was awesome. I thought the customizability and the ability to delegate the boring micromanagement aspect of random battles was an awesome new experience for the FF series.

Then FFXIII's system. It's still sort of turn based, but it's also very fast, flashy and fun, which I think is what a game should be. The pace at which battles could unfold kept you thinking on your feet, and you had to tactically think of how to handle boss fights rather than just "well, here comes the big damage spell, let me heal through it." Debuff classes were actually useful in most boss fights for once instead of being strictly situational, and the way the game handled it made maintaining buffs and debuffs much less of a chore than previous FFs.

It could have used more exploration, but at the same time it had great pacing through most of the story that discouraged boring grinding and kept you involved in the story and the world. I think, if anything, what people like to talk about the "good" part of the game, the open world part, is actually the weakest because there's little direction, no narrative and nothing but endless battles.

Do I think XIII is perfect? No, for a variety of reasons, and similarly I don't like the direction SE has taken the past few years with endless spinoffs and rereleases instead of quality original IPs. Still, I don't think FFXIII deserves the crap it's gotten, especially since FFX was quite similar in its linearity and is often praised as one of the best FFs.

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Originally Posted by Ostia

Dont be a Fan Boy, there are plenty of RPG'S that are 100% better than any FF Tittle(Except FFVI,FFT)

Suikoden II, Xenogears, OGTLUCT, DO, ME, CT, CC, Suikoden V, Legend of Heroes(The last trilogy), Ys etc etc.

FF is a good series, but it has been in decline since they been catering to the graphic whores.

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That's a matter of opinion. And I've already admited I'm a shameless fan *cough* gal, somewhere else on the site. :)

I also think it's because of the graphics that the last games have been a little lacking, but I never blamed it on everybody. FF games have been expected to be the leading in graphics since idk when.

However, I would be perfectly content with FFVIII level graphics, and even no voice overs. I always felt that the movies were kind of like a reward in the game when you reached them, but when the whole game is nearly that quality, kinda takes away from it.

I'm not so sure a majority would agree with me though. :)

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Originally Posted by Bled

http://images.wikia.com/egamia/images/2/2f/Magicite.png

looks a lot like crystals to me..

http://th07.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/...e_by_Orinn.jpg

Magicite is the stone form of an Esper. Once an Esper dies, they turn into Magicite.

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No shit, they look like a crystal ? Just because they look like a crystal does not means they are the same crystals from the previous 5 games, their creation and purpose in the game is different than those before before, hell their entire concept in game is not the same.

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Originally Posted by Clydey

Did you even play previous games in the series? Look at Final Fantasy VIII. There was a lot to be gained from exploration, so you really are spouting nonsense.

And sales figures have nothing to do with how good a game is. After all, how can any of those 6 million buyers determine whether or not they like the game until they play it?

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I'm pretty sure somebody said this, but Final Fantasy, is a brand name, the name alone sells games(Like this crappy game for example) i bought the game just because it said Final Fantasy, why ? Because i own every single FF main FF tittle, also people tend to forget that the first FF title in a next gen console outsells any other tittle in that console(FF7,FFX,FFXIII)

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Originally Posted by chime85

I've been thinking this for years. Graphics are great, dont get me wrong. But you can't been good old fashioned game play. Given the chance, who would be happy to re-play (or play) the first 9 titles in the series without updated graphics? I know I would. FF6 > FF13 any time :D

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I have replayed 7 and 8 about 5 or 6 times. For a while I was alternating between them. I've replayed 10 twice. I've yet to replay 12, I don't own 9 or the earlier ones, but I would like to. I'm still working on the extras with 13. Once the story is over, I kind of lose my motivation. But I'll get it all done eventually. :)

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Originally Posted by Ostia

No shit, they look like a crystal ? Just because they look like a crystal does not means they are the same crystals from the previous 5 games, their creation and purpose in the game is different than those before before, hell their entire concept in game is not the same.

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They wouldn't call it crystallization (FFVI) if it wasn't a crystal, crystals in FF serve different purposes, especially in the later games when the world is suddenly no longer governed by mothercrystals.

Also, XI's Magicite:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Magicite:_Aurastone

Crystals aren't just one thing in games, especially in FF games.

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Originally Posted by Clydey

And sales figures have nothing to do with how good a game is. After all, how can any of those 6 million buyers determine whether or not they like the game until they play it?

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Actually, it's one of the only hard determining factors we have. The first week FFXIII sold 1.5 million copies. Even if every single one of those people were the "bought it but didn't like it crowd" (which is ridiculously unlikely), that still leaves 4.5 million people that bought it with enough time to read the reviews.

Btw, FFXIII has an average score of 83-85/100. Sorry, not a crappy game.

And lol at the guy who claims that it's a fact the game sucks because the "common opinion on message boards and fansites is it sucks". Sorry man, A) that's still just your personal interpretation and B) that isn't backed by the evidence in any way.

i dont carry i will buy every thing FF related no mater what, heck i own both ff3 on ds and iphone now. i would buy ff16 if i was a game about changing the colors and tone in the title screen.

Complain much? if you don't like why complain on the forums?

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Originally Posted by Ostia

No shit, they look like a crystal ? Just because they look like a crystal does not means they are the same crystals from the previous 5 games, their creation and purpose in the game is different than those before before, hell their entire concept in game is not the same.

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Thank you, Ostia, for supporting my point. When have I ever said that the Crystals in each and every game was the same? They all served different functions, yet they were also pivotal to the plot, or aided as tools for the gamer to use. There is no correlation between the Crystals of ALL of the FF games. However, you cannot deny that Crystals have appeared as a major theme throughout all the FF mainstream games.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Actually, it's one of the only hard determining factors we have. The first week FFXIII sold 1.5 million copies. Even if every single one of those people were the "bought it but didn't like it crowd" (which is ridiculously unlikely), that still leaves 4.5 million people that bought it with enough time to read the reviews.

Btw, FFXIII has an average score of 83-85/100. Sorry, not a crappy game.

And lol at the guy who claims that it's a fact the game sucks because the "common opinion on message boards and fansites is it sucks". Sorry man, A) that's still just your personal interpretation and B) that isn't backed by the evidence in any way.

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I read the reviews and bought it anyway. Like many, I buy every Final Fantasy game. The series has a following and it will sell millions of copies no matter what. It's a bit like saying 'Date Movie' was a great film because it was a box office success. Sales and quality do not always go hand in hand, particularly when you consider brand names and marketing.

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Originally Posted by Clydey

I read the reviews and bought it anyway. Like many, I buy every Final Fantasy game. The series has a following and it will sell millions of copies no matter what. It's a bit like saying 'Date Movie' was a great film because it was a box office success. Sales and quality do not always go hand in hand, particularly when you consider brand names and marketing.

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'Date Movie' didn't do well by movie sales standards. FFXIII did well by game sales standards. Your comparison is invalid.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

'Date Movie' didn't do well by movie sales standards. FFXIII did well by game sales standards. Your comparison is invalid.

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Actually, it was a box office success. What determines financial success depends on a film's budget. The same goes for the equally horrendous Epic Movie and Meet the Spartans. All went to number 1 at the box office. So no, my comparison is not invalid.

But anyway, my point is pretty clear. Either way, I've spent a bit too much time arguing on here today.

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Originally Posted by Clydey

Actually, it was a box office success. What determines financial success depends on a film's budget. The same goes for the equally horrendous Epic Movie and Meet the Spartans. All went to number 1 at the box office. So no, my comparison is not invalid.

But anyway, my point is pretty clear. Either way, I've spent a bit too much time arguing on here today.

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Wrong. It did not make nearly as much money as the average "blockbuster". FFXIII did. Point is still invalid. Let it go.