The whole Legacy debate wrapped up.

Oh, check it out, a dead horse.

I MUST BEAT IT.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AmandaHuggenkiss

I know many who did this.
Imagine the rage threads if those who on faith paid 6 months in advance were called...
Super Legacy!

---

Hehe. I didn't pay for legacy though. Perhaps an element of faith is true. But ultimately I paid because I wanted to see the story that shapes the future. Thats pretty much the only reason. Legacy was just a bonus.

When I first saw the 2.0 roadmap I had envisioned 1.0 as a kind of wings of the goddess style thing. A chance to see the events of the past that shaped the present (or what will be the present at least). For me personally it was Like XI before wings of the goddess. Lots of connections to a crystal war and an expedition to Xacrabard some 20 years ago and I always was intrigued to know more about it. in xi wings of the goddess was that story. I saw 1.0 as the opportunity to do exactly that in xiv.

I'm sure at some point in the ARR story there will be references to the great battles of mordhona and the coming of dalamund. And it would be something that I would want to know more about. Just as I wanted to know more about the crystal war and that Xarcarabard expedition in XI. However thanks to 1.0 I got the chance to witness it.

Well thats why I paid anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ZakarnRosewood

Unfortunately this generation is the "blame everyone but yourself" generation. Nothing is ever "my" fault! lol,

---

Dude so true. This is what it's like living with my mom so over the years ive developed the very opposite whereas I blame myself for literally everything to negate her attitude in life. Yes it's my fault your not legacy, I tried so hard to tell everyone who would listen(but no one listens to me T.T)!

Aside from the discount on sub's that Legacy has, there isn't anything major apart of it. Okay they get to beta test from day 1, which is cool in itself, but those people complaining because they can't play the game NOW are the one's who want to treat it like a demo.

I didn't make the Legacy campaign just by a month, but I'm not butt hurt over it. I can also afford to pay more than $9.99 to play much like I did last year. Another huge perk to just being apart of the game pre-2.0 is the stuff that won't be relevant to 2.0 that no one will ever have. Like the Gobbue mount. Cool, everyone has a Chocobo with armor, but I got this bad boy!

In short.. Get the eff over it.

This seems quite fitting.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.n...55620811_n.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by seuki

I agree with this guy. SE should've let EVERYONE know about the legacy campaign. Even those who never even heard of FFXIV much less own a computer. It was THEIR responsibility to give everyone an equal chance.

---

Seriously? A clothing store at my local mall had a sale last week and i got 20% off a sweater. Would you like to write to every local newspaper in my area about how nobody knocked on your door to tell you about this offer just because you happen to like my sweater also?

SE is not your mother. They advertised to their entire listed customer base in several emails it was in every SE newsletter which you could subscribe to even if not part of FFXIV it was on their homepage. Their job is not to hand feed you something you only cared about retroactively. They took reasonable measures so that anyone interested in their product would see about a promotion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KiraHime

Seriously? A clothing store at my local mall had a sale last week and i got 20% off a sweater. Would you like to write to every local newspaper in my area about how nobody knocked on your door to tell you about this offer just because you happen to like my sweater also?

SE is not your mother. They advertised to their entire listed customer base in several emails it was in every SE newsletter which you could subscribe to even if not part of FFXIV it was on their homepage. Their job is not to hand feed you something you only cared about retroactively. They took reasonable measures so that anyone interested in their product would see about a promotion.

---

I think you missed the sarcasm in his/her post ; ;.


That being said, for those that started late and didn't get the email - the legacy stuff was all over lodestone and system message on login :X

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kirito

>///>" /10char

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/Comfort :)

(was waiting for something else to comment on first, I dont like /10char'ing myself lol need to at least 100 char :D)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nix

I think you missed the sarcasm in his/her post ; ;.


That being said, for those that started late and didn't get the email - the legacy stuff was all over lodestone and system message on login :X

---

Some people started late (like 3 days late) saw the lodestone that says till end of beta. Thought oh awesome beta is delayed so I can get legacy - then SE gives October as a free month and shut downs the game before beta starts.

Not very many people fall into this area, but for them that blows XD

I didn't even know FFXIV existed until it was past the Legacy status date anyway. let's just say I was pretty out of any sort of technological loop.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Some people started late (like 3 days late) saw the lodestone that says till end of beta. Thought oh awesome beta is delayed so I can get legacy - then SE gives October as a free month and shut downs the game before beta starts.

Not very many people fall into this area, but for them that blows XD

---

Yeah, I'll agree that SE was kinda vague but at the same time I'm torn because legacy was supposed to be for people that had supported the game and not just jumped in when the going got good D:

I've been here since day one (literally) so I try to sympathize but at the same time it's like "If you'd have wanted to support the game you would have been here too, and all it would have cost was $30" :x

there will be no poor, if you can foresee the future. that is all i am going to say.... tired of this kind of thread

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Titans

You say we don't need these threads popping up, but you post in these very threads. And please don't be sorry for me, because I am legacy. You only fuel the flames. So stop putting fuel to the fire and it will burnout. From one adult and hope to another. Be wise rather than sounding wise.

---

Excuse me? I'm not fueling the flames. My post was very level-headed (for the most part, I'll concede that the first bit could have been written a little better) and not instigatory at all.

The legacy program was something SE felt like it needed to do to retain its fan base and generate some income to cover costs during the inevitably long delay between 1.0 and ARR. While it probably didn't work as smoothly as they would have liked, you can't really blame them for doing it. I know plenty of people that might have given up or simply waited for ARR without playing the old version if there wasn't any special incentive.

It sucks that some people missed out on it, it really does. but there's no sense in blaming anybody, whether it be SE or legacy players.

How much advertizing time, money and effort do you expect SE to waste on promoting a legacy status for a concept of a better game. To date we still only have snippets of information on what they are creating. The game already had a huge bad rap from its 1.0 launch leaving a sour taste in many peoples mouths. i think they did the right about of promoting for the legacy status, they advertized to their current player base and anyone on the SE newsletter mailing list.

If what they did was insufficient, what would have been enough? Bus ads? TV Spots? Fireworks in the sky? Its really a matter of cost vs reward. Personally I hope they save their big advertizing campaign for the ARR launch, that will me more worth while. Legacy was a reward for support and loyalty more than a promotional offer. As others have pointed out there was advertizing and reviews and other mentions of legacy and it ran the better part of a year. Why is this even an issue or cause for debate?


EDIT:
I came late to this topic. I've noticed these "Legacy" issue threads popping up quite a lot of late and i have generally ignored them. I made the mistake of actually reading some of the comments then, in another lapse of judgment I added my two cents. Please forgive me if I have aggravated this topic.

[The whole Legacy debate wrapped up.]

A month after launch no one will know the difference between a legacy and none.
Why? Many legacy will start from scratch, this being a new game and all. And let's be honest, they will fall in love with the new characters and more then likely never touch the old one's. Legacy will become like having the CE or N copy, when we log in we will all be on the same step.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Twiddle

[The whole Legacy debate wrapped up.]

A month after launch no one will know the difference between a legacy and none.
Why? Many legacy will start from scratch, this being a new game and all. And let's be honest, they will fall in love with the new characters and more then likely never touch the old one's. Legacy will become like having the CE or N copy, when we log in we will all be on the same step.

---

This legacy person is doing no such thing. Where are you even getting this conjecture?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kallera

This legacy person is doing no such thing. Where are you even getting this conjecture?

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Prove me wrong! that a month after launch anyone will give a damn who is legacy and who is not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Excuse me? I'm not fueling the flames. My post was very level-headed (for the most part, I'll concede that the first bit could have been written a little better) and not instigatory at all.

The legacy program was something SE felt like it needed to do to retain its fan base and generate some income to cover costs during the inevitably long delay between 1.0 and ARR. While it probably didn't work as smoothly as they would have liked, you can't really blame them for doing it. I know plenty of people that might have given up or simply waited for ARR without playing the old version if there wasn't any special incentive.

It sucks that some people missed out on it, it really does. but there's no sense in blaming anybody, whether it be SE or legacy players.

---

Not fueling the flames you say? Look very closely to the people that are posting in this thread. Most if not all are legacy. So he put the bait out there and you all bit. Yet this thread is still on the front page of the Forums, meaning fuel to the fire.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Twiddle

Prove me wrong! that a month after launch anyone will give a damn who is legacy and who is not.

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I think he meant your "many legacy will start from scratch" comment. Some may, but to call it "many" is a bit of an assumption.

Quote:

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Some people started late (like 3 days late) saw the lodestone that says till end of beta. Thought oh awesome beta is delayed so I can get legacy - then SE gives October as a free month and shut downs the game before beta starts.

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SE gave plenty of warning about the program's conclusion. They stated more than a month in advance abotu the end of being able to buy 90 day subscription periods, and multiple months in advance of the last possible days to subscribe to get legacy. As far as I'm concerned they give people every opportunity to sign up and gave plenty of advance notice.

Quote:

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Not fueling the flames you say? Look very closely to the people that are posting in this thread. Most if not all are legacy. So he put the bait out there and you all bit. Yet this thread is still on the front page of the Forums, meaning fuel to the fire.

---

You're the only person here who seems to see the alleged fuel and fire. This thread has been conducted in a fairly reasonable manner with a very low level of hostility. And if what you say is true, then there isn't really an issue in the first place because that would mean that not very many non-legacy players are actually complaining about it.

What I see is simply a more or less reasonable discussion with you criticizing the participants for the mere act of participating.

if you miss a black friday sale on a 60" TV you didn't know you wanted at the time, or just didn't want to spend the money on... then 2 months later you suddenly want it at the price point you missed out on- how is that the fault of the store? why should they give you the black friday sale?

even if you argue that you didn't *know* that TV was going to be on sale for black friday, the store puts out enough literature/advertisements that if you were looking around you'd see it. if you weren't looking around for it and you missed it, or you found out about it too late...again- how is that the store's fault?

i don't understand.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

SE gave plenty of warning about the program's conclusion. They stated more than a month in advance abotu the end of being able to buy 90 day subscription periods, and multiple months in advance of the last possible days to subscribe to get legacy. As far as I'm concerned they give people every opportunity to sign up and gave plenty of advance notice.

---

Either you missed the context or we can agree to go back and forth on this forever - because I will (I'm pretty sure we have in other threads too.. lol).

SE lodestone what people saw from the outside world (if they werent already apart of the network) would have no idea that they couldnt get legacy until they joined and were told no.

Not everyone checks the forums. The lodestone main page that was held on the left THE ONLY page that was held on the left, never had when it was going to close but beta. "Will be available till beta start".

That page, THE ONLY page, that was stickied to the left was never updated until it was too late for these people who came in.

Again. THE ONLY PAGE stickied never had the proper information until it was too late.

I dont care there was little notes that hit the website and then left because of new information slipped it down. If you sticky a tab you put all the information in there, not expect players to think there is information else where.

Now if you were a part of the network and saw the many posts in the forums then.. yeah well you probably should have listened to the Reps when they said "last chance to sign up for 90 days and be sure to get it".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

SE gave plenty of warning about the program's conclusion. They stated more than a month in advance abotu the end of being able to buy 90 day subscription periods, and multiple months in advance of the last possible days to subscribe to get legacy. As far as I'm concerned they give people every opportunity to sign up and gave plenty of advance notice.

You're the only person here who seems to see the alleged fuel and fire. This thread has been conducted in a fairly reasonable manner with a very low level of hostility. And if what you say is true, then there isn't really an issue in the first place because that would mean that not very many non-legacy players are actually complaining about it.

What I see is simply a more or less reasonable discussion with you criticizing the participants for the mere act of participating.

---

Nah, I have no reason to define my legacy status or any reason to rub it in. I grew up many years ago. But I'm not here to debate with you. You choose to target me thinking I was non legacy. Now you have to try another approach. No sir you can have it. Good day.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shougun

either you missed the context or we can agree to go back and forth on this forever - because I will.

SE lodestone what people saw from the outside world (if they werent already apart of the network) would have no idea that they couldnt get legacy until they joined and were told no.

Not everyone checks the forums. The lodestone main page that was held on the left THE ONLY page that was held on the left, never had when it was going to close but beta. "Will be available till beta start".

That page, THE ONLY page, that was stickied to the left never was updated until it was too late for these people who came in.

Again. THE ONLY PAGE stickied never had the proper information until it was too late.

I dont care there was little notes that hit the website and then left because of new information. If you sticky a tab you put all the information in there, not expect players to think there is information else where.

Now if you were a part of the network and saw the many posts in the forums then.. yeah well you probably should have listened to the Reps when they said "last chance to sign up for 90 days and be sure to get it".

---

okay, now be objective and put that into context. you have a game that was a critical failure, which most people who ever played quit early on and never looked back, and they're trying to reboot it from the ground up- something no company has ever done before with a failed MMO.

the focus is clearly on throwing time, effort, money and advertising at the new product to come, as that would net the best results for your dollar. and since the 1.0 client was already a failure, why waste money advertising a sinking ship? that's idiotic. they knew this. so they didn't bother.

however, a bunch of people either stuck it out and supported that sinking ship to the bitter end, or at the very least kept checking up on it every so often to see what was new, whether to see if the 1.0 client got better or just to keep tabs on the 2.0 client. the company wanted to reward these people for their loyalty and support.

so legacy is imagined up, and advertised on the site where either people currently supporting or simply following along will plainly see it. no advertising dollars are spent. any mention outside of the site is word of mouth.

if people weren't actively supporting the game, weren't following along, or didn't hop on board in time to get legacy- ONCE AGAIN, how is this rationally the fault of the company? how are those people owed anything? it sucks they didn't get it but the onus is on them, whether they were ignorant of the promotion or not. whether they found out about it just a bit too late or not.

people need to drop this ridiculous entitlement. who knew it was so hard to look at things reasonably?

tl;dr sucks dudes, but not square's fault. all the tears in the world will not make it their fault. see you in 2.0. /end

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fusional

tl;dr sucks dudes, but not square's fault. all the tears in the world will not make it their fault. see you in 2.0. /end

---

SE should have been aware when they where going to take down their servers and stop payment and then immediately update that on the main Legacy page.

I never mentioned they need to advertise to the world, that is someone else.

I said they had an advertisement that was misleading. (Yes misleading, because it looked available even though it wasnt and if people came in with that in mind they were mislead because SE didnt bother to update their own page - well until it was too late for it to mater for some of those people).

"Available till start of beta" later that became available before the start of alpha, sort of.

i just seriously don't get it.

i didn't look at newegg's site when they were doing a promotion, now i'm mad i missed it. even though i could've signed up for their mailing list A LONG TIME AGO- i never bothered. i could've kept tabs on their site, but didn't. and by the time i found out it was just a bit too late. and somehow it's THEIR RESPONSIBILITY TO LET ME KNOW about this promotion and by god now that i've missed it i'm gonna raise hell. it's all their fault, and they owe me that promotion!

reeeeeeeeeer

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shougun

SE should have been aware when they where going to take down their servers and stop payment and then immediately update that on the main Legacy page.

---

that's assuming square knew long before subs went live that they were going to offer a legacy campaign, and/or assuming they had everything in place to implement said legacy campaign within a reasonable timeframe after subs going live.

which is patently ridiculous considering only a barebones crew was left working on 1.0 and they were pretty much just flying by the seat of their pants on this stuff until servers went down.

but, you know- keep having unreasonable expectations of a company and game in an outstanding position

as far as servers going down and rescinding payment- plenty of notice was given about that. and no matter how much you try to claim notice wasn't properly given, it won't change the reality that it was. reading is fundamental.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shougun

I said they had an advertisement that was misleading. (Yes misleading, because it looked available even though it wasnt and if people came in with that in mind they were mislead because SE didnt bother to update their own page - well until it was too late for it to mater for some of those people).

---

misleading because people have such potent ADHD they can't read and process few lines of text? ok. and that's the fault of the company?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shougun

"Available till start of beta" later that became available before the start of alpha, sort of.

---

whats is fine print precious?

what kind of reasonable human would just read a simple "available til blah blah" header without clicking and reading/researching more deeply? if people just read a tagline and go, "ha ha, neato, i'm in!" and just blindly assume that's all it takes, again- how is this the fault of the company which provides the literature for them to read so they can know whether or not they can qualify?

if you argue it's square's fault, then you argue square should hire employees that make door to door visits to every person who read the site, explaining to them in person with notarized documents how the legacy campaign works.

because, you know. then the people don't actually have to read or really do anything for themselves. because that seems to be the problem. when you leave it up to people to be proactive, and they're not (or they're simply not proactive enough)... then somehow the company is at fault?

get out of here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fusional

i just seriously don't get it.

i didn't look at newegg's site when they were doing a promotion, now i'm mad i missed it. even though i could've signed up for their mailing list A LONG TIME AGO- i never bothered. i could've kept tabs on their site, but didn't. and by the time i found out it was just a bit too late. and somehow it's THEIR RESPONSIBILITY TO LET ME KNOW about this promotion and by god now that i've missed it i'm gonna raise hell. it's all their fault, and they owe me that promotion!

reeeeeeeeeer

---

You are mixing concepts up, greatly.

This wasnt a promotion that said "available till the 5th"

Its the 6th and now I'm mad because they wont give it to me.

They didnt update their end date until it was too late for these people and that end date hadnt even come yet.

What it is more like is

"ends on the 5th"

I come in at the 4th and they wont give it to me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KiraHime

Seriously? A clothing store at my local mall had a sale last week and i got 20% off a sweater. Would you like to write to every local newspaper in my area about how nobody knocked on your door to tell you about this offer just because you happen to like my sweater also?

SE is not your mother. They advertised to their entire listed customer base in several emails it was in every SE newsletter which you could subscribe to even if not part of FFXIV it was on their homepage. Their job is not to hand feed you something you only cared about retroactively. They took reasonable measures so that anyone interested in their product would see about a promotion.

---

Did you think I was serious when I said SE should've let people, who don't even own computers, know about the legacy campaign?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shougun

"ends on the 5th"

---

and yet again you conveniently leave out all the text underneath that explaining exactly how it all worked. so yet again because people have such potent ADHD that they can't read beyond the initial tagline, you blame the company.

you live in a strange and frightening alternate reality.

i can't post in this thread anymore. people are too irrational.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fusional

and yet again you conveniently leave out all the text underneath that explaining exactly how it all worked. so yet again because people have such potent ADHD that they can't read beyond the initial tagline, you blame the company.

you live in a strange and frightening alternate reality.

i can't post in this thread anymore. people are too irrational.

---

The amount of radical aggressive text you seethe is amazing.

I conveniently left out nothing. If you read the original Legacy Stickied page it goes in depth what Legacy is and how to get it - then one month before servers close they update it to say when servers close (and thus when the true end date is). That means people who joined a month or a little less then two months got cut.

Yes they could have found it on the forums, but why would they - you are the one that lives in a frightening alternate reality where people expect companies to parse their information out in multiple directions. I will maintain in the reality where I expect a professional company to deliver their information in concise cohesive means.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fusional

and yet again you conveniently leave out all the text underneath that explaining exactly how it all worked. so yet again because people have such potent ADHD that they can't read beyond the initial tagline, you blame the company.

you live in a strange and frightening alternate reality.

i can't post in this thread anymore. people are too irrational.

---

When SE first announce legacy they never announce a cut off date. You didn't find out about last data save until October. So most thought they had twelve months rather than the 10. Not everyone has time to troll fantasy forums do to they may actually have life in the real world. Unlike yourself. So let's say that someone return in September. You don't find out until October that the next month month is free, so now they are disappointed. I can understand why.

"Available until the start of Beta" falls true. It has been available as long as you paid for 90 days out of the months that required a subscription fee. After the subscription subsided, and you did not have legacy by then, I guess you are out of luck. They gave specific deadlines and even extended them. There was nothing misleading about it. There was only misunderstanding.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fusional

i just seriously don't get it.

i didn't look at newegg's site when they were doing a promotion, now i'm mad i missed it. even though i could've signed up for their mailing list A LONG TIME AGO- i never bothered. i could've kept tabs on their site, but didn't. and by the time i found out it was just a bit too late. and somehow it's THEIR RESPONSIBILITY TO LET ME KNOW about this promotion and by god now that i've missed it i'm gonna raise hell. it's all their fault, and they owe me that promotion!

reeeeeeeeeer



that's assuming square knew long before subs went live that they were going to offer a legacy campaign, and/or assuming they had everything in place to implement said legacy campaign within a reasonable timeframe after subs going live.

which is patently ridiculous considering only a barebones crew was left working on 1.0 and they were pretty much just flying by the seat of their pants on this stuff until servers went down.

but, you know- keep having unreasonable expectations of a company and game in an outstanding position

as far as servers going down and rescinding payment- plenty of notice was given about that. and no matter how much you try to claim notice wasn't properly given, it won't change the reality that it was. reading is fundamental.



misleading because people have such potent ADHD they can't read and process few lines of text? ok. and that's the fault of the company?



whats is fine print precious?

what kind of reasonable human would just read a simple "available til blah blah" header without clicking and reading/researching more deeply? if people just read a tagline and go, "ha ha, neato, i'm in!" and just blindly assume that's all it takes, again- how is this the fault of the company which provides the literature for them to read so they can know whether or not they can qualify?

if you argue it's square's fault, then you argue square should hire employees that make door to door visits to every person who read the site, explaining to them in person with notarized documents how the legacy campaign works.

because, you know. then the people don't actually have to read or really do anything for themselves. because that seems to be the problem. when you leave it up to people to be proactive, and they're not (or they're simply not proactive enough)... then somehow the company is at fault?

get out of here.

---

Holy crap... I'm actually agreeing 100% with something fusional said.

Excuse me, I have to go call the devil and ask him if people are ice skating down there.

You know what's funny, though?

I didn't really come to the forums until 1.0 was taken offline, and yet even I knew about Legacy well in advance.

Strange, huh? lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SkyeWindbinder

You know what's funny, though?

I didn't really come to the forums until 1.0 was taken offline, and yet even I knew about Legacy well in advance.

Strange, huh? lol

---

I'd say almost all of us had a SE account, email is good enough there lol

I think they should revise the requirements for Legacy status so that you need to have paid for every month while there was a subscription fee, so I can still get to be Legacy. Or add a Super Legacy status.

Legacy status was only added by Yoshi-P in an attempt to physically show the team's appreciation for those of us who physically supported what they were working on. However, Legacy status is nothing compared to their hard work and dedication.

I'd gladly give up my Legacy status if it meant they got to take a well-deserved vacation...after the launch...

Hmm... this topic is odd... It had one confrontation then settled, then had another confrontation and settled and now its on its third confrontation... what is the point... this actually baffles me that someone continues to extent this debate... I mean this has been going on for months so I'm sure enough people in SE know about it... guys there are more important things to think about... and its coming in 5 day :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kirito

Hmm... this topic is odd... It had one confrontation then settled, then had another confrontation and settled and now its on its third confrontation... what is the point... this actually baffles me that someone continues to extent this debate... I mean this has been going on for months so I'm sure enough people in SE know about it... guys there are more important things to think about... and its coming in 5 day :D

---

WHATS COMING IN 5 DAYS!?!?!?!?

WHAT !?!

Fight me for 5 days because im bored! :D


I partially wish there was a rule that moderators locked every topic on Legacy after responding to it. Just make everyone's life so peaceful lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kirito

Hmm... this topic is odd... It had one confrontation then settled, then had another confrontation and settled and now its on its third confrontation... what is the point... this actually baffles me that someone continues to extent this debate... I mean this has been going on for months so I'm sure enough people in SE know about it... guys there are more important things to think about... and its coming in 5 day :D

---

I disagree, I would say it's only on it's 2nd confrontation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shougun

WHATS COMING IN 5 DAYS!?!?!?!?

WHAT !?!

Fight me for 5 days because im bored! :D


I partially wish there was a rule that moderators locked every topic on Legacy after responding to it. Just make everyone's life so peaceful lol

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I personally would hope for a self close option... this way any topic that the op feels may have gotten a bit out of control, he can end.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by seuki

I disagree, I would say it's only on it's 2nd confrontation.

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Well you got me there... although the topic did die down for a while due to inactivity...