Where is FFXIV headed in terms of sexism?

Oh dear god people it's pixels and polygons. There's more objectification of women in the real world you should be worry about. As a woman I don't feel insulted or whatever because I know it's a video game. It's not sexist it's not sexism it's just doing something that will clearly appeal to the eyes of some of the players.

If they did it to males, women who talk about this would have no problem, usually those who cry "sexist!" or "sexism!" or "you're objectifying us!" are usually the ones who are the least comfortable with their own self-image or overly sensitive to even virtual imagery of what is defined as "sexy."

It's a non-issue. If you want to talk about this issue, direct your attention to Korean MMORPGs or realize the fact that yes..BREAST BOUNCE. If you have a large A cup+ yes your breast will bounce even slightly. If you're sitting in about a C or D you have unnatural breasts if they do not bounce lol. Maybe it's because I'm not overly sensitive to stuff like this, but the Mithra/Miqote for example..yes they're flirty because let's be real, the majority who played a mithra or miqote are usually the ones that go flirting around with almost everything that moves and they generally the "playful" race. So while XIV is more realistic than XI was in terms of society, it's a non-issue..it's a video game.

It's like the outcry over Tomb Raider all over again. While women do play, there are also lesbians who play MMORPGs and may be attracted to female characters even in a video game..however, gaming is largely a male market and developers know this. The problem is, people have become way too sensitive over the years and way too uptight about things. Like I said, worry a lot more about the real world, especially the western world than a video game in terms of this.

I would like to know what the stats on my thong will be..

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Originally Posted by strallaalaa

bouncing breasts

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I'm sorry did you say something? :P (even better joke in this particular thread.. XD)

Speaking of the jiggles, in the live letter Yoshi said that they are working on the "bones" in the chest. So that in ARR we can expect them to jiggle, wobble, and puff puff. :P

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Originally Posted by Ryuko

As others have pointed out, males are stereotyped just as much -- being forced to wear the big, thick muscles and wide, powerful shoulders.

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Funny you'd say this, as we have both midlanders and highlanders, and midlanders are very mild in their phisique compared to most games.

At least in Final Fantasy XIV i don't have to play as an ape with his hands bigger than his head and his chest larger than his height like I do in Tera.

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Originally Posted by Ryuko

I'll agree on this point, but I'm not touching what you said after that with a ten foot pole.

When I was considering doing video game art design, I went for an open house. I was literally the only female there. THE ONLY FEMALE THERE. Granted, this was seven years ago when I was first applying to colleges. Trends could be steadily changing.

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That's not unlikely. Females are much rarer than males in the game industry, but that's not normally because they're not accepted, just because that's a line of work in which they're (normally) less interested in.

But I would say that if you were to look for data on the percentage of females that try for the game industry and manage, and compare it with the percentage of males, you'd be surprised.

the "girl in the shop!!!" effect is still quite powerful, even now that ladies are becoming a much normal sight in development teams and as gaming journos.

I should of known someone would cry about boobs.. Ugh, they are just boobs, grow up and get over it..

One interesting thing I've noticed: people talk about sexual equality as though they should be both treated exactly the same.

Equality ≠ Sameness

Water and Sunlight are both equally necessary for the life of a tree, but they aren't the same thing by a long-shot and should not be treated as so.

Case in point:

If forcible sexual assault was decriminalized only as long as a woman was the aggressor, your average person would not notice the implications.

If forcible sexual assault was decriminalized for everyone... well, civilization as we know it would degenerate into tribal warfare pretty damn fast.



My point in regards to this thread:

Putting equally skimpy clothing on male characters doesn't justify objectifying women. Its not remotely the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Funny you'd say this, as we have both midlanders and highlanders, and midlanders are very mild in their phisique compared to most games.

At least in Final Fantasy XIV i don't have to play as an ape with his hands bigger than his head and his chest larger than his height like I do in Tera.

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We could easily flip that around and say female physique in XIV is pretty mild too compared to any other game, especially TERA.

Like I'll accept the situation just because it could've been worse.

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Originally Posted by Kibo

We could easily flip that around and say female physique in XIV is pretty mild too compared to any other game, especially TERA.

Like I'll accept the situation just because it could've been worse.

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Sure, but the situation is definitely well balanced in FFXIV. It's not just a matter of being better or worse.

I'm not exactly sure about what kind of physique you'd want for males in the game, as midlanders are pretty much the minimum you'd realistically see from people used to drag weapons around.

So far I am not worried, because:

1. There is a ton of nice looking, non-skimpy, non-sexy gear.

2. Any sexy gear we get is more or less equally sexy/skimpy on BOTH genders. None of this "only females can or should dress in a manner that is designed to appeal to the opposite sex" or "we are catering to the men here, not you ladies, obviously!" nonsense. I recently took a look at TERA, but then I saw the female-only bunny suits (sexy) released with the male-only full body bright yellow jumpsuits (silly) and needless to say that was the last look I'll be taking.

3. It looks like we will be able to make strong, tall female characters, females with reasonably sized busts, and male characters that are of a shorter, slimmer build without a lot of muscles.

As someone who likes to make my characters of both genders visually appealing -- sometimes cute/pretty, and sometimes sexy -- I am quite happy with FFXIV's approach so far. From what I have seen I do think there is a bit much disparity in, ahem, coverage, between the genders for some RSE (esp. Miqo'te), but I'm not ready to pull out the ol' pitchfork just yet. :p

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Originally Posted by Abriael

For something that's not a huge deal, you sure wrote a huge post :D Don't get me wrong. Sexism in the gaming industry (or in every industry) IS a problem. But it's not here.
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But I digress...

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I enjoy taking part in discussions, and I also type incredibly fast :) OP did end up longer than I wanted but I felt it all needed to be said to get across what I was getting at. Being a woman can often help at entry level for most careers, but you'll also notice in most careers, barely any females make it to the 'top-tier' positions. It's something that's discussed a lot in the news, here at least. Anyway, it's an interesting point but I don't want to throw this off on a tangent. I know that comment was nothing in the grand scheme of things, but it did niggle me.

I'm going off to do other things though now, and I think I've got the answers I was seeking, so thank you everyone for responding. It sounds like maybe I'm being a little too pre-emptive in thinking this trend from the dev team will go further, so we'll just have to wait and see! It's also encouraging to hear other female avatars have not had the same experiences/seen the same things as me. It is also, however, reassuring to see I'm not the only one who has noticed this and is a little concerned by it. I hope to play with, in the future, some of these kind and well mannered people who have replied.

I'm looking forward to vanity slots, a lot :)

didn't Yoshi P. say BOING BOING

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Originally Posted by nokinator

didn't Yoshi P. say BOING BOING

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Not according to Reinheart (IIRC). I think that was what the official translator put in there :/

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Originally Posted by Laiferr

I enjoy taking part in discussions, and I also type incredibly fast :) OP did end up longer than I wanted but I felt it all needed to be said to get across what I was getting at. Being a woman can often help at entry level for most careers, but you'll also notice in most careers, barely any females make it to the 'top-tier' positions.

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yeah this is very true, but from what I see in the gaming industry, it's mostly because (at least for now), large numbers of ladies are a relatively recent injection in the industry. We'll see how it'll be in a few years. I already know quite a lot of females that work as producers and top-tier marketing managers, and I'm quite sure that more will join their ranks soon.

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I'm looking forward to vanity slots, a lot :)

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Oh, you're not the only one. But I'm ready to bet you that the coliseum gear will be one of the most used outfits that will end up in those slots (and not just by males). Maybe I'm wrong, but I've got a feeling :D

The way I see it as they are just breasts...and costumes/armor in a game (or whatever it is one considers sexism in here idk ><) and breasts are a part of nature. They're supposed to be there and they are supposed to move :) Unless you wear a super tight sports bra or something >.>

Now if people act stupid with it and are like "HURR DURR UR SO HAWT CAN I TOUCH UR BEWBS, WANNA CYBER" or whatever...or when they harass/stalk me in game because of who/what I am in RL (or whatever)...THAT is when it bothers me. Most folks are mature about it and act civil and don't make those awkward and weird comments....sooo I think its fine how it is :)

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Oh, you're not the only one. But I'm ready to bet you that the coliseum gear will be one of the most used outfits that will end up in those slots (and not just by males). Maybe I'm wrong, but I've got a feeling :D

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>.> lol - I dont look forward to that..

Not much to do to stop it though if adding a "like a vanity" system. (Wonder if it is just translations or if he is really keeps on putting "like a" on purpose.)

There are plenty of scanty outfits for men. I think the OP is the first one I've seen address it like it's a problem, too. It's a JRPG, so a bit of sexism is kind of expected. That being said, there was clearly a female GLA in the opening cutscene, and Yda is a female PGL. The NPCs have been pretty well balanced, imo.

Thank you for the interesting topic and good discussion! :)

I don't really find the game sexist, even though I have to admit I was a bit worried about the future direction of gear design when they added the coliseum thingies, and the ARR miqote skirt is just embarassing. But I don't mind the game having some sexy and revealing gear for people to wear as an option - as long as it's not the BiS pieces. I guess time will tell.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

I would like female characters to have their missing pieces put back - I always go "Lol wtf" to female dragoon armor. Seriously cut a hole in your armor for your stomach to show? Worst "armor" idea ever.

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Yeah, I'd also like them to refrain from doing silly decisions like this.

There are numerous problems in the world facing women, such as that in several countries, women are treated as no more than property and have almost zero rights. This here, is a non-issue. This only serves to highlight something I've said for a long while, that we live in a culture that actively seeks out ways to be offended. I don't see you complaining about the over-sexualization of men in this game. At least your underwear doesn't look pants on head retarded. Please, if you want to get outraged at an over-sexualized MMO, I hear the Queen's Blade MMO is coming over to the west.

- Are you concerned about female objectification?

No. It's part of modern life (be that a good or bad thing i'll not get into), but more your missing out that most if not all the males are made with the same objectification in mine.
SWG was the last mmo i remember playing where you could play a fat avatar (wookie ftw)

- Are you concerned with how far the FFXIV team will go with sexism?
- Does it in any way effect your enjoyment of the game?

Again No, So far the hero have been mix'd, (hmm... not the Villains though) the armour is still mostly realistic looking, probably more so then most FF games as it is actually armour.
I still feel this is one of the most balanced games when it comes to sex appeal just enough to look good but not enough its fap fap fap time for the kids.

- Has it ever effected how you have been treated as a female avatar?

lol no, most people are aware that males are female and females are male, most people just treat you as another player.

But I do love the oddd one who (outside of RP environments) flirt an such, but I just sit back have some fun then shout "IT's A Trap!" and run away..
Though RP wise I'm gona have even more fun now after the mix up when we were saved....


Conclusion/opinions:

Realistic proportions are fine, FF style reviling armour is fine, and most FF games have some if not more skin showing, most rarely wear armour so as long as we done end up in rift/aion and other well known titles style of armour i think were just fine atm.

A level of Sex appeal is needed to cater for those who want that, but to much will put off people who don't want it.
I would love to sere a level of realism, with larger less defined and built males as well.
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Originally Posted by Empyrean

This here, is a non-issue. This only serves to highlight something I've said for a long while, that we live in a culture that actively seeks out ways to be offended.

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This is spot on and I've been having the same general argument with people for ages, along with trying to explain equality means getting the good with the bad, not just the good which is what most people want.

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Originally Posted by Empyrean

I don't see you complaining about the over-sexualization of men in this game.

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An it's strange how this one never comes up isn't it :D

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Sure, but the situation is definitely well balanced in FFXIV. It's not just a matter of being better or worse.

I'm not exactly sure about what kind of physique you'd want for males in the game, as midlanders are pretty much the minimum you'd realistically see from people used to drag weapons around.

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I came off as a bit incessant with my post. It doesn't actually bother me if I don't like the physique of a gender/race in a game. I'll just play as something else or not at all. Not wanting to play a character that looks like they hit the gym 6 times a week is just a personal preference of mine and a non-issue. I have other options. :>

And bare minimum physique isn't really an issue in a game where midgets run around busting kneecaps with cast iron battle axes. :D

I'm going to be honest here, I like a little sexy in my games. I agree with some of the previous comments about the reality of sexism not only in anime but in Japanese culture as well. I've been long tired of constantly hearing of people's negative feelings toward sexism in various parties of society. The reality is you can't over sexualize males because to a large part of the population, the male form is not a sex symbol. Women were created to be inherently sexy in order to attract mates and men were evolved to seek after those mates. We can dance around our evolved sensibilities all we want to, but understanding this fact does not make it any less true. I understand our need to place ourselves above all that but it doesn't change reality.

Additionally, there is a vast number of societies in the world (Many Latin cultures for example) in which objectification and cat calling is normalized. If you don't get whistles from guys on the street, you start to think there is something wrong. Various societies throughout time have been seen as sexualizing Women because that is the role of the gender (eg: to be sought after). I find IRL that a majority of the women I know revel in being gawked at. Personally, I think it is just a part of nature.

I think I take more issue with the fact that this comes up so often because America is still such a puritan state. There is nothing wrong with being sexy. If you want to choose not to partake in, then I can see facilities to turn off certain movements or replace certain gears on the client-side but not to be removed from the game entirely.
If you honestly have that much issue with being surrounded by lightly clothed attractive females who are "oversexed", btw, I suggest you stay away from TV shows, movies, High schools, Colleges, Malls, every video game and anime convention across the nation, and all of southern California. Surely, all of these places must also offend you as they also contain this material of which we are speaking.

http://i722.photobucket.com/albums/w...igri-Rikku.jpg
http://www.jessicanigriofficial.com/

Trust me... she isn't objectified she is empowered and personally, If I could put someone in that outfit in FFXIV... I would.

Just my 2 cents.

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Originally Posted by Colvin

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Most of your issues are absolutely not what I'm talking about, also, it seems you did not quite understand the OP or read much of the thread are you are saying things like I am 'offended' by skimpy outfits, which I have never once said. To restate for the umpteenth time: I have no problem of people having the choice to dress however they want.

Also Jessica is incredibly objectified, I have watched interviews with her, people making sexy comments about her, trying to grab her boobs, etc. But this is a non-point as she is comfortable with it, I have no problem with it. It is her choice.

Anyway, I really wanted to just quickly say: people kept mentioning NA and America, for the record, I am not American nor was I thinking anything about America :)

Keep in mind it is a japanese game, and as such it's not a surprise to see it so sexualized.

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Originally Posted by Laiferr

Anyway, I really wanted to just quickly say: people kept mentioning NA and America, for the record, I am not American nor was I thinking anything about America :)

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People keep mentioning it because if you take a look at American TV..you'll see much more of it than you would in XIV for example.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Thank you for the interesting topic and good discussion! :)

I don't really find the game sexist, even though I have to admit I was a bit worried about the future direction of gear design when they added the coliseum thingies, and the ARR miqote skirt is just embarassing. But I don't mind the game having some sexy and revealing gear for people to wear as an option - as long as it's not the BiS pieces. I guess time will tell.


Yeah, I'd also like them to refrain from doing silly decisions like this.

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How are you embarrassed by the Miqote skirt? I'm confused....

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Originally Posted by Laiferr

I've never seen myself as a feminist, I just want respect, rights and the same treatment for all.

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This comment makes me a little sad, because what you have described is the core of feminism - but there is so much stigma attached to the word feminist these days that people who agree with the values (such as yourself) don't want to self-identify that way.

I feel a lot of what I would respond with has already been said by others (Ryuko's comment on page four in particular). The important thing for me is having options (breast size, fanservice gear vs practical gear, etc), and not being disrespected for selecting any particular option. Final Fantasy MMOs have always made me feel like my female character can be just as badass as any male character. If that ever changed, it would be a sad day for me, but I'm not getting the sense that it will.

I'll finish with this...

Empowered: Even if I choose to wear 'sexy' gear once in a while or decide to go with larger breasts, my character isn't defined by these things, and I don't feel demeaned because everything else about my character, from my battle poses to (most of) my regular battle gear, is designed for usefulness and not for looks.

Objectified: Everything about the character is designed first and foremost to look sexy, from gear to emotes to battle poses. I cannot even take the character seriously, because she's cheesecake with battle mechanics attached. See Tera for some really good examples.

I'd like to be treated with respect, in game or in real life, and I feel that I am in Final Fantasy XIV.

It's a Fantasy game. That's all it is. Have fun with it and dont sweat the small stuff.

http://www.themarysue.com/black-cat-cosplay-harassment/

while i agree with you, empowerment can easily with a turn of a coin become objectified in the right situations and people.

the pic you show is a female that makes money showing off herself there is a difference since someone with the right amount of cash can probably get more then a peek from a lot of these women in general (not all just saying). i think that might be an issue not being able to see the diff from a women working or a women just having fun in revealing clothes.

but all in all the usa is a bit uptight i mentioned earlier that other countries have naked women and men in comercials let alone not complaining about breasts in games. you can't even have a little baby bare ass running threw a store without it becoming head line news here in the usa.

this topic on mmo's, what i feel is content over an aesthetics ...so i rather not have any of it then lose any content being made. but i'm ok with big breasts that giggle but i'm a dude.

if your a women that cares that much you probably should realize that the direction this world is heading is opposite of the one your fighting for. nothing wrong with sex or nakedness(with exeption of being harassed but remember there are revealing women working like the pic colvin posted), there is a bigger issue with people telling others how to live. huge issue with that in this world ...don't get me wrong money is the route of all reason for anything that happens usually. but even in a world that money wasn't an issue, sex would be the top reasoning behind a many things.

Somewhat glad SE is an eastern company. Western Feminism won't be able to rub off on it to a high degree~

To be fair, I wasn't speaking necessarily to just what you were saying but also the comments and side conversations that I read along the thread. I don't have any issue with having the option to turn things like that on and off. Also, I don't think we have the same opinion of the definition or severity of objectification, clearly.

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Originally Posted by strallaalaa

http://www.themarysue.com/black-cat-cosplay-harassment/
if your a women that cares that much you probably should realize that the direction this world is heading is opposite of the one your fighting for. nothing wrong with sex or nakedness(with exeption of being harassed but remember there are revealing women working like the pic colvin posted)

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to which, by the way, I should appologize. I didn't have the time to find or photoshop something smaller. It was kind of a big picture :/

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Originally Posted by Imoen

How are you embarrassed by the Miqote skirt? I'm confused....

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I'm not personally embarassed, I just think the design is embarassing. As someone wrote earlier in this thread, the skirt is so short every step you take is a panty shot. For me it's just one step too far, they could have made the skirt just a bit longer and made it sexy instead of trashy.

Bringing it up like this seems like it's a huge deal for me - which it really isn't, I just wanted to clarify as it was asked. It just caught my eye in the alpha footage and I've seen many players mentioning it (mostly male players saying they'll have to find some pants to wear :P).

Meh, idk.

Even as a female I'd much rather see females more curvier. Not ridiculous like in other games, but still. I was rather disappointed in the bust size in the elezen females.

Generally speaking, FFXIV is tame. Have you seen other games, like Tera? If you think the gear in this game is skimpy, try going to another game where its a lot worse.

Besides, a big chunk of the female characters in this game are males anyway.

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Originally Posted by raelee

Meh, idk.

Even as a female I'd much rather see females more curvier. Not ridiculous like in other games, but still. I was rather disappointed in the bust size in the elezen females.

Generally speaking, FFXIV is tame. Have you seen other games, like Tera? If you think the gear in this game is skimpy, try going to another game where its a lot worse.

Besides, a big chunk of the female characters in this game are males anyway.

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So you like big titties. Nothing wrong with that, but Elezen tits are pretty damn big as is..lol.

Are we confusing sexiness with sexism again? I noticed that is happening a lot to video games lately.

As long as the game is good, something like breast physics isn't going to ruin everything. One could argue breast physics don't add anything to the game; however, it doesn't take anything away from the game either. It's a neutral addition. Fanservice-y, to be sure, but nothing is robbed from the experience by having or not having it.

In any case, we'll be looking at our characters' backsides most of the time. Where is ass physics in all of this?

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Originally Posted by Colvin

to which, by the way, I should appologize. I didn't have the time to find or photoshop something smaller. It was kind of a big picture :/

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i still agreed with you for the most part. not to go extreme but if it came to a choice where i was forced to chose my rights and freedoms to even the small things like having breasts on tv and games and women who care, i'd fight there asses back into the kitchen cooking me food and cleaning my home b4 that happens. just saying lmao. :)

Honestly, I read this and was a little creeped out by the fact that you kept talking like you could relate to the female perspective, when you clearly suggested you were male. However, that aside, I don't agree with this topic. I play a female "Mithra" and have had no problems with the skimpy outfits. In rare occasion, yes they have useful stats, but with the game being so versatile in roles, I never found myself wearing the same outfit THAT often anyway. I'll admit every once in a while for fun I like to dress my character up around town and depending on the mood I would dress my character to look either refined or sexy. There is nothing wrong with this, in my opinion, it just suited my tastes for that moment. I can see how this might affect or alienate female players to some degree, but it's not like we're playing Sword Art Online where they have to look at the onlooker's faces from the first person. Women these days who are into gaming quickly find out that it's a male dominated audience and they have to adjust accordingly to it.

This is mind, I would like to think that even though the devs have a certain taste that they like to express, it shouldn't have any sort of long lasting negative affect on the player base. I for one would rather strive for an outfitter option to be able to change item models. On another note, I would really hate to play a game where we're back in the early 1900s where women aren't allowed to show any skin what so ever. Or worse, everyone goes Muslim and wears veils.

if people really would get political off to virtual avatars getting married and it looks look like same sex marrige they need to go to a nut house. its not real. even in real life who cares people will do what there gonna do.

same people already say violence is to hard in games, yet say nothing about the movie industry and thats way worse realistic killing, rape, pedo's, drug use and the list keeps going.

i just think people need to grow up and get there head out there asses.

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Originally Posted by Taika

I'm not personally embarassed, I just think the design is embarassing. As someone wrote earlier in this thread, the skirt is so short every step you take is a panty shot. For me it's just one step too far, they could have made the skirt just a bit longer and made it sexy instead of trashy.

Bringing it up like this seems like it's a huge deal for me - which it really isn't, I just wanted to clarify as it was asked. It just caught my eye in the alpha footage and I've seen many players mentioning it (mostly male players saying they'll have to find some pants to wear :P).

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Oh, Thanks for responding I was just curious. I guess it could be a little longer? I don't know I think its cute not trashy personally.

I would also like to add one more thing: I personally think all the people making threads expressing their disinterest in the Dev's design philosophies should really take a step back and let the Devs design the game that they've worked so hard on with their own artistic talents. I don't mean for anyone to take this the wrong way, but asking that Tarus be more heroic akin to Hyur and asking for less skimpy attire really interferes with their creative minds a bit when they have to appease everyone, especially if it's something nitch.