What happened to the 8 years of data and market analysis?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Abriael

there are many definitions of "casuals gamer", and in japan a casual gamer is not necessarily someone that wants an easy game, but simply someone that doesn't have much time to play.
In Japan the monster hunter series (for instance) is considered a casual-friendly series.

That said, one of the biggest problems with FFXIV is that the target userbase wasn't identified clearly enough. There's something for casuals, something that appeals hardcore, something that appeals sandbox lovers... the problem is that all those "somethings" by themselves aren't enough to satisfy fully any of those audiences.
As I stated, trying to make everyone happy will end in big problems basically in every market. It's one of the most widespread and problematic marketing fallacies there are.

SE should have focused on pleasing a more limited customerbase, but pleasing them fully. After that, you can work on spreading your target further by building on the solid base you already have.

---

Agreed.

PS: Its nice to read something from you written from a more neutral perspective.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Abriael

That said, one of the biggest problems with FFXIV is that the target userbase wasn't identified clearly enough. There's something for casuals, something that appeals hardcore, something that appeals sandbox lovers... the problem is that all those "somethings" by themselves aren't enough to satisfy fully any of those audiences.

---

Which begs the question: who is the userbase now? The one the devs would presumably be tailoring the changes and fixes to the game to?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Evenstar

The answer of all financial problems of SE (if they have any :P): FF7 HD remake

---

(Finally somewhere I can post this theory without being random ^^.)

Think about this, Final Fantasy's 1-4 have been remade around their 20th anniversaries. Logic would dictate the others will follow.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Which begs the question: who is the userbase now? The one the devs would presumably be tailoring the changes and fixes to the game to?

---

The mutts who like a mixture of all three, like me ^^;

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Plus that still doesn't answer how you could end up with a worse product than FF11. The interface sucked. Combat is tedious. Crafting is epic frustration. Content was missing with little storyline within a city-state and dailies making up most of what you could do. Leveling is too slow overall (I'm anti-levels but still, what the game calls progress is bad).

---

WOAH! I must have accidentally skipped over that. You're comparing a newer generation game to an older generation game? Yah, for a second there, I thought you were thinking when you posted that, but I was wrong.

First off, FFXIV was released in 2001. Back in those days, mmorpgs were a lot more hardcore. Think of the hundreds of thousands of people who quit FFXI shortly after it came out (most of which were fans of modern Final Fantasy titles that required hardly any skill or grinding to play at all). A large portion of this crowd flocked to WoW as well, which introduced a much more noob-friendly environment. You're saying FFXI is meant for casual gamers? That's bs. No other mmorpg today requires 4 straight uninterrupted hours to complete a single mission.

Get your facts straight before you apply this excuse to why FFXIV turned out as it did.

lol

OP pretty much said everything I've been saying all along...

FFXIV doesn't have to be a clone of FFXI. I just wish SE would use their past experience to shape an enjoyable game rather than poop a completely new and unfinished one out and slap the FF title on it.

If the game wasn't meant to be FF, I wish they would've just kept developing it in that direction. I feel bad that SE sometimes doesn't get to do what they want due to the masses. Take FF12 for example. The story was really supposed to revolve around Basch, and be a little more somber than other FFs. The marketing team freaked out because OMG WHO WOULD WANT TO PLAY A CHARACTER OLDER THAN 20 YEARS OLD?! and created Vaan and Penelo. Pretty much the entire story arc changed. While Basch still plays a significant role, he is not the main character and the game isn't as serious or dark as it would have been, given SE had the choice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BelgianRofl

I love how nobody is allowed to a valid opinion except for the armchair expert of all things.

---

The thread is basically asking what happened. And you have to arm chair unless you hire a private detective, in japan.

You will never be able to drag the real story out, everything is sanitized by PR when it reaches the public. Reading between the lines is the best anyone can do.

What we have are:

-Interview post disaster: (PR admitting that they indeed was trying to make a game "not FF11") So we know developers were intentionally shunning their fans(FF11 player base) and tied a certain amount of hands

-Release post disasters: "Horsebird" fiasco. The thousands of grammatically and and nonsensical words and terms. It lead to conspiracy theorist like outsource to china, and porting to china for easy money, etc. (Also where china is responsible for surplus came from). In any event, when a release state game is fill with grammatical errors that were deemed impossible for even a native speaking child. There is a a definite smell of lack of QC and outsourcing. The people in the team were definitely "Not good" to let these kind of things happen.

- Beta test records : The lack of any official response for the 8 months of this period, shows that there was pre-meditated plans to make the game we see today, priority was on " casual solo" aspects. Things that were tweaked were things like attack speeds, targeting, levequest(repeatedly), xp, etc. Things that were ignored for 8 months were party aspects, the dreaded "No sp for parties more then 3" comes to mind.

-Pre release interviews aka Tanaka, the face of FF14: Tanaka was a vocal one, preferring to have his say in all the FF14's good and bads, instead of relying on PR people. This lead many people(and should be since he's the producer) that Tanaka was the man at the helm.

-Executive meetings an financial meetings: We know now for sure and from before, FF14 was projected to be a major major revenue stream. Both stock holders and the higher ups were all giving the image that even with all of SE's problem (it stocks was half of the decade before) and their repeated problems, FF13 and FF14 were major revenue drivers. They were not "meant to fail". We know for a fact after the disaster, SE cut their projected revenue by 90% for fiscal year, due to FF14.

There was no hint that higher ups made "FF14 pushed out to die". Considering for 8+ months we the small beta-testing public already knew it was doomed, the higher ups would have smelled it even sooner. They would have cut all PR, slowly made plans to minimize their stake in it, and smudged the financials.

- This is probably the strongest argument against the "release too soon theory". Basically every higher up and every major stock holder would have been slowly pulling out before FF14 hit, not before.

So where does that lead.. There were definite signs that FF14 was on a collision course with death, but it's pretty odd that SE financial didn't hint at it. So if you start blaming CEOs and CFOs or even boards...that's kind hard to prove. They would have made their moves long before it was too late to cushion the damage. That leads the producer and the director.

It was pretty obvious why the producer got rubbed out in this case. How deep it goes down the latter or up the ladder we'll never know. But he is the go-to guy. Producers should be having daily if not weekly or at least monthly status report updates, by at least the director, more likely every department head. He would have have managed the financial and scheduling. He would have also known about the Press and the fan community input.

It's hard not to paint an arrow on the "all roads leads to" position. It does sucks when you're that person, but it was a 4+yr project. You don't get off lightly for things like that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akumu

Originally Posted by pielun
Dear Mr Rofl.
Your mutiple posting is filling not only the English forrums but the Japanese forrums`NEW POSTS as well.
Mr Yosihida already said that he will only announce what he can promise to deliver on date.
Thank you for your cooperation. From Japan.


lmao wow Belgian you're even trolling the jp forums. Once you get your feast from jp I guess your off to the next 2?

---

Lol, that's what is seems like.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Galamantyl

WOAH! I must have accidentally skipped over that. You're comparing a newer generation game to an older generation game? Yah, for a second there, I thought you were thinking when you posted that, but I was wrong.

First off, FFXIV was released in 2001. Back in those days, mmorpgs were a lot more hardcore. Think of the hundreds of thousands of people who quit FFXI shortly after it came out (most of which were fans of modern Final Fantasy titles that required hardly any skill or grinding to play at all). A large portion of this crowd flocked to WoW as well, which introduced a much more noob-friendly environment. You're saying FFXI is meant for casual gamers? That's bs. No other mmorpg today requires 4 straight uninterrupted hours to complete a single mission.

Get your facts straight before you apply this excuse to why FFXIV turned out as it did.

---

Discussion is over, look he lost. He's fact said FFXIV came out in 2001. W00t!!!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kukurumei

The thread is basically asking what happened. And you have to arm chair unless you hire a private detective, in japan.

You will never be able to drag the real story out, everything is sanitized by PR when it reaches the public. Reading between the lines is the best anyone can do.

What we have are:

-Interview post disaster: (PR admitting that they indeed was trying to make a game "not FF11") So we know developers were intentionally shunning their fans(FF11 player base) and tied a certain amount of hands

-Release post disasters: "Horsebird" fiasco. The thousands of grammatically and and nonsensical words and terms. It lead to conspiracy theorist like outsource to china, and porting to china for easy money, etc. (Also where china is responsible for surplus came from). In any event, when a release state game is fill with grammatical errors that were deemed impossible for even a native speaking child. There is a a definite smell of lack of QC and outsourcing. The people in the team were definitely "Not good" to let these kind of things happen.

- Beta test records : The lack of any official response for the 8 months of this period, shows that there was pre-meditated plans to make the game we see today, priority was on " casual solo" aspects. Things that were tweaked were things like attack speeds, targeting, levequest(repeatedly), xp, etc. Things that were ignored for 8 months were party aspects, the dreaded "No sp for parties more then 3" comes to mind.

-Pre release interviews aka Tanaka, the face of FF14: Tanaka was a vocal one, preferring to have his say in all the FF14's good and bads, instead of relying on PR people. This lead many people(and should be since he's the producer) that Tanaka was the man at the helm.

-Executive meetings an financial meetings: We know now for sure and from before, FF14 was projected to be a major major revenue stream. Both stock holders and the higher ups were all giving the image that even with all of SE's problem (it stocks was half of the decade before) and their repeated problems, FF13 and FF14 were major revenue drivers. They were not "meant to fail". We know for a fact after the disaster, SE cut their projected revenue by 90% for fiscal year, due to FF14.

There was no hint that higher ups made "FF14 pushed out to die". Considering for 8+ months we the small beta-testing public already knew it was doomed, the higher ups would have smelled it even sooner. They would have cut all PR, slowly made plans to minimize their stake in it, and smudged the financials.

- This is probably the strongest argument against the "release too soon theory". Basically every higher up and every major stock holder would have been slowly pulling out before FF14 hit, not before.

So where does that lead.. There were definite signs that FF14 was on a collision course with death, but it's pretty odd that SE financial didn't hint at it. So if you start blaming CEOs and CFOs or even boards...that's kind hard to prove. They would have made their moves long before it was too late to cushion the damage. That leads the producer and the director.

It was pretty obvious why the producer got rubbed out in this case. How deep it goes down the latter or up the ladder we'll never know. But he is the go-to guy. Producers should be having daily if not weekly or at least monthly status report updates, by at least the director, more likely every department head. He would have have managed the financial and scheduling. He would have also known about the Press and the fan community input.

It's hard not to paint an arrow on the "all roads leads to" position. It does sucks when you're that person, but it was a 4+yr project. You don't get off lightly for things like that.

---

Thank you for this write-up. I enjoyed reading it and hope others will too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shelia

Take FF12 for example. The story was really supposed to revolve around Basch, and be a little more somber than other FFs. The marketing team freaked out because OMG WHO WOULD WANT TO PLAY A CHARACTER OLDER THAN 20 YEARS OLD?! and created Vaan and Penelo. Pretty much the entire story arc changed. While Basch still plays a significant role, he is not the main character and the game isn't as serious or dark as it would have been, given SE had the choice.

---

Geez, don't remind me about this one... >.>

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fieros

Agreed.

PS: Its nice to read something from you written from a more neutral perspective.

---

I always write from a neutral perspective, and most of the time from related experience.

That doesn't mean that you're going to like it. :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jibe

This seems so true, especially because alot of the questions in those polls were worded in such a way that you already had an idea that they were wanting to do a certain thing, but were wanting confirmation from the players. No matter the responses to those polls I think that SE will do what they think is best.

It may even be that they consider the opinions of current players least, as these are the people most likely to already be at least somewhat satisfied with the game because they are still playing.

---

This.

My biggest complaint about the player-polls, (while important), are set up in such a way that I feel like SE already knows the answer to their question.

Example: I remember in the last one, there was a question regarding if I had "felt the effects of the fatigue system." There was only Yes, and No. I was looking for the option that said, "Yes, now please take it the $%^& out of the game!"

That said, I feel like the question was particularly worded so that we couldn't voice certain obvious opinions. Which means that SE is aware of the general opinion from the player base. Which then means that they're probably going to do whatever the hell they want to do, regardless of how we feel about it. Don't get me wrong, I don't think SE should listen to every little whiny kid who wants a pretty version of WoW. But I also think that if SE is going to post polls like this, then they shouldn't try to curb the question like that.

Obviously, this is the only example that comes to mind at the moment. But there were a few others where I felt that answering the question didn't really reflect my opinion on the matter. And that's what is frustrating.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Heartfire

This.

My biggest complaint about the player-polls, (while important), are set up in such a way that I feel like SE already knows the answer to their question.

---

Game developement isn't and should never be a democratic process. It's good to ask for input and feedback, but that input and feedback needs to be filtered through the vision and competence of a professional development team.
Otherwise:
1: every game would end up being the same, since statistically the majority always wants the same things.
2: there would be absolutely no evolution in the market, as the status quo always tends to be more popular in polls than innovative solutions (especially in consolidated markets, or even more in fossilized markets like this one)
3: games would simply be a mess completely lacking direction, since most gamers lack the bird-eye view to actually consider systems in relation to each other, and will respond each question on different systems as an airtight compartment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Galamantyl

First off, FFXIV was released in 2001. Back in those days, mmorpgs were a lot more hardcore. Think of the hundreds of thousands of people who quit FFXI shortly after it came out (most of which were fans of modern Final Fantasy titles that required hardly any skill or grinding to play at all). A large portion of this crowd flocked to WoW as well, which introduced a much more noob-friendly environment. You're saying FFXI is meant for casual gamers? That's bs. No other mmorpg today requires 4 straight uninterrupted hours to complete a single mission.

---

I'm saying that there were backward steps like lack of an AH from FF11 (which came out in 2001) and the current game. I can't say I like the crafting system either. FF11 certainly wasn't a gem (just look at the relatively low numbers) and had problems of its own. Still compared to games like GW and WoW, both of which sold pretty well, this game has learned nothing and certainly hasn't advanced anything or is even an equal in some respects.

Still, you have to admit it's pretty bad when you have to goto a website like zam to figure out how to get the patcher to patch at a decent speed because SE wrote theirs weird. I'd hardly call that a step forward either.

Character customization? Despite being released a decade after the first game, you still don't really get that many options. Not as much as AoC, (now) EVE, CoH, or DCUO. That's something simple, graphics are SE's strong suit, and they didn't really advance things all that much. Want to color your armor? Well you can, only when it is made, and only using a handful of specific colors. That's a step backwards for the genre. In GW, you buy 1-4 dyes, click on the object you want to dye, and mix the dyes in the preview window. The new dye system in that game has only been out a few years now.

No AA? I'm not sure I'd call that a step forward. I can't even set the first skill in my slot to automatically queue every few seconds (so it doesn't burn my stamina on its own).

The crafting maxigrind... err minigame. All that clicking is definitely a step backwards if you ask me.

The interface at release? If you don't call that a step backwards, you're tripping. They released the game for the PC first and didn't even think to optimize it for a PC gamer and then have an PS3 one for those players.

Having to manually type in someone's name every freaking time when you want to whisper him? Step backwards.

Inability to set communication to /shout and make it stay there because you aren't sure if anyone is around or willing to talk to you? Step backwards.

Having to manually set which area I'm going to harvest at and then play a guessing game? Step backwards... too time consuming and you can get bored with the minigame and extra clicks real quick.

Forcing minigames on players but not offer enough progress/rewards? A step backwards as it gets monotonous.

Calling a chocobo a horsebird? HOW IN THE BLOODY WORLD DO THE PEOPLE AT SE WHO ARE MAKING AN FF GAME NOT KNOW THE NAME OF A CHOCOBO! IT'S BEEN A FRANCHISE STAPLE SINCE FOREVER! A step backwards times 10.

So umm, yeah, there are steps backwards.



Kukurumei, nice post.

Actually I would say that crafting/gathering minigames are a definite step FORWARD from the "press one button and pray it works" system, which is instead antiquated and surpassed.

Character customization options are pretty much in line with today's standards as number of combinations and single options, and actually way above average for colors.

No AA being a step backwards is entirely debatable and subjective.

And you can set the chat to shout making it stay there.

FFXIV did take some step backwards in a few aspects of gameplay, but it did also take some definite steps forward.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Abriael

Actually I would say that crafting/gathering minigames are a definite step FORWARD from the "press one button and pray it works" system, which is instead antiquated and surpassed.

---

I agree. Vanguard had a very similar crafting system (right down to the local leves), and I am glad that FFXIV emulated their system and not the RNG crafting system of every other game. I think it's funny to say FFXIV wasn't paying attention to the genre when it's kind of suspicious that FFXIV's crafting system is basically the same as Vanguards (which is a pretty obscure game).

Quote:

---

Character customization options are pretty much in line with today's standards as number of combinations and single options, and actually way above average for colors.

---

Looking at Aion, EVE Online and TERA, I would have to disagree. But I think the options for gear are quite broad (this ties into the crafting system) and has potential for even more diversity.

Quote:

---

No AA being a step backwards is entirely debatable and subjective.

---

Especially considering most next generation games don't have AA.

Quote:

---

FFXIV did take some step backwards in a few aspects of gameplay, but it did also take some definite steps forward.

---

I think SE needs some recognition for the things it did right. It's kind of frustrating to see the many achievements they made lumped together with their failings, so much so that SE has become self-conscious and seem to be changing all their good features for the worse.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

I'm saying that there were backward steps like lack of an AH from FF11 (which came out in 2001) and the current game. I can't say I like the crafting system either. FF11 certainly wasn't a gem (just look at the relatively low numbers) and had problems of its own. Still compared to games like GW and WoW, both of which sold pretty well, this game has learned nothing and certainly hasn't advanced anything or is even an equal in some respects.

Still, you have to admit it's pretty bad when you have to goto a website like zam to figure out how to get the patcher to patch at a decent speed because SE wrote theirs weird. I'd hardly call that a step forward either.

Character customization? Despite being released a decade after the first game, you still don't really get that many options. Not as much as AoC, (now) EVE, CoH, or DCUO. That's something simple, graphics are SE's strong suit, and they didn't really advance things all that much. Want to color your armor? Well you can, only when it is made, and only using a handful of specific colors. That's a step backwards for the genre. In GW, you buy 1-4 dyes, click on the object you want to dye, and mix the dyes in the preview window. The new dye system in that game has only been out a few years now.

No AA? I'm not sure I'd call that a step forward. I can't even set the first skill in my slot to automatically queue every few seconds (so it doesn't burn my stamina on its own).

The crafting maxigrind... err minigame. All that clicking is definitely a step backwards if you ask me.

The interface at release? If you don't call that a step backwards, you're tripping. They released the game for the PC first and didn't even think to optimize it for a PC gamer and then have an PS3 one for those players.

Having to manually type in someone's name every freaking time when you want to whisper him? Step backwards.

Inability to set communication to /shout and make it stay there because you aren't sure if anyone is around or willing to talk to you? Step backwards.

Having to manually set which area I'm going to harvest at and then play a guessing game? Step backwards... too time consuming and you can get bored with the minigame and extra clicks real quick.

Forcing minigames on players but not offer enough progress/rewards? A step backwards as it gets monotonous.

Calling a chocobo a horsebird? HOW IN THE BLOODY WORLD DO THE PEOPLE AT SE WHO ARE MAKING AN FF GAME NOT KNOW THE NAME OF A CHOCOBO! IT'S BEEN A FRANCHISE STAPLE SINCE FOREVER! A step backwards times 10.

So umm, yeah, there are steps backwards.

Kukurumei, nice post.

---

Wow, I wrote an entire point-by-point response to your post and then pressed 'backspace' on accident and it took me back one page and I ended up losing everything i wrote.

Anyways, I guess my point was something like: Besides some features such as the UI and character customisation, overall I don't think FFXIV took a step backwards, it just took too many steps in opposing directions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

I'm saying that there were backward steps like lack of an AH from FF11 (which came out in 2001) and the current game. I can't say I like the crafting system either. FF11 certainly wasn't a gem (just look at the relatively low numbers) and had problems of its own. Still compared to games like GW and WoW, both of which sold pretty well, this game has learned nothing and certainly hasn't advanced anything or is even an equal in some respects.

Still, you have to admit it's pretty bad when you have to goto a website like zam to figure out how to get the patcher to patch at a decent speed because SE wrote theirs weird. I'd hardly call that a step forward either.

Character customization? Despite being released a decade after the first game, you still don't really get that many options. Not as much as AoC, (now) EVE, CoH, or DCUO. That's something simple, graphics are SE's strong suit, and they didn't really advance things all that much. Want to color your armor? Well you can, only when it is made, and only using a handful of specific colors. That's a step backwards for the genre. In GW, you buy 1-4 dyes, click on the object you want to dye, and mix the dyes in the preview window. The new dye system in that game has only been out a few years now.

No AA? I'm not sure I'd call that a step forward. I can't even set the first skill in my slot to automatically queue every few seconds (so it doesn't burn my stamina on its own).

The crafting maxigrind... err minigame. All that clicking is definitely a step backwards if you ask me.

The interface at release? If you don't call that a step backwards, you're tripping. They released the game for the PC first and didn't even think to optimize it for a PC gamer and then have an PS3 one for those players.

Having to manually type in someone's name every freaking time when you want to whisper him? Step backwards.

Inability to set communication to /shout and make it stay there because you aren't sure if anyone is around or willing to talk to you? Step backwards.

Having to manually set which area I'm going to harvest at and then play a guessing game? Step backwards... too time consuming and you can get bored with the minigame and extra clicks real quick.

Forcing minigames on players but not offer enough progress/rewards? A step backwards as it gets monotonous.

Calling a chocobo a horsebird? HOW IN THE BLOODY WORLD DO THE PEOPLE AT SE WHO ARE MAKING AN FF GAME NOT KNOW THE NAME OF A CHOCOBO! IT'S BEEN A FRANCHISE STAPLE SINCE FOREVER! A step backwards times 10.

So umm, yeah, there are steps backwards.



Kukurumei, nice post.

---

What's the point of saying all of that, people know it's true complaining about samething on what happen and why this gets old very soon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Abriael

Game developement isn't and should never be a democratic process. It's good to ask for input and feedback, but that input and feedback needs to be filtered through the vision and competence of a professional development team.
Otherwise:
1: every game would end up being the same, since statistically the majority always wants the same things.
2: there would be absolutely no evolution in the market, as the status quo always tends to be more popular in polls than innovative solutions (especially in consolidated markets, or even more in fossilized markets like this one)
3: games would simply be a mess completely lacking direction, since most gamers lack the bird-eye view to actually consider systems in relation to each other, and will respond each question on different systems as an airtight compartment.

---

There's a difference between direction, originality and practicality.

Should FF14 define itself, yes. It needs direction
Does FF14 need to be original? Maybe, It needs to have "style" or "hype" as they call it.
Does FF14 need to be down to earth playable. A big yes. And one it greatly forgot existed.

FF14 was full of test-tube ideas that was impractical. Whatever practicality was in it was then half baked.

Developers are allowed to make stupid ideas, but that's why there are other people around to tell that developer it's stupid. Without a voice of reason, you get FF14.

Let's take Market wards/retainers as an example:
Idea Maker: Have people walk in and have retainers sell items. Interactive/fun/original...
Voice of reason: How will people find things?
Idea Maker: umm...
Voice of reason: What happens if you have a whole server of them and fills up?
Idea Maker: errr..
Voice of reason: How do you move them around? They can't be everywhere at the same time.
Idea Maker: ahh...
Voice of reason: What about browsing and position? Isn't it kind hard to constantly manage them?
Idea Maker: Who cares, It's original, let's do it!

That was basically FF14's entire core functionality. Do first, think later.

And the one sentence counter argument to your idea. I just want to have fun, not some artistic mental ejaculation experience.

FF14 had not one shred of the voice of reason, and it paid dearly when the voice of reason told people it sucked. So yea..what did happen to 8 years of data and market analysis?

And the final answer to this question is... throw it all away to go copy wow lulz

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lordvr

And the final answer to this question is... throw it all away to go copy wow lulz

---

http://i45.tinypic.com/2url8i1.gif

Jumping on the Rokien bandwagon doesn't make you cool or funny.

This thread again?

Everything involved with FFXIV was handled poorly. Bad judgement, rushed, out sourced, ignoring current trends, bad ideas on paper. It was a mess. A giant mess. One that Yoshi has to work through and fix.

Ignore it. This person is bumping old troll threads. Waiting for the majestic ban hammer to smash it into nothingness.