Considering the drastic change in what we thought would be Arcantist would be like (based on weapon, location, npc clues and the attire of what is in game atm) I also would not be judging the Musketeers on what is now; a set of obsolete clues.
How Many Would Have Rather Seen RDM than SMN
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09-03-2012, 09:23 AMNiqote
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09-03-2012, 11:49 AMMakwa
Heh, watch them slap rapiers on Musketeer and make it a melee DoM class that becomes RDM.(Coulda just been Fencer!)
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09-03-2012, 03:26 PMPhenQuote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
I keep throwing money at my screen but nothings happening D:Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
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09-03-2012, 04:10 PMJinrya-GekiIf I get inspected at my job, I'm in trouble. I just choked up my dinner laughing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phen
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09-03-2012, 07:42 PMDuelleI'm just hoping SE gets the hint. We've only been talking about RDM and melee for the last, I don't know, 9 years or so. :OQuote:
Originally Posted by Phen
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09-03-2012, 08:23 PMFironRDM is not really a popular class no main char from FF is like i'm a bad ass RDM. You have smn's, thf, wars,pld , drk,drg , whm nin, mnks, onion knights and other classes who was center of the stage but never a rdm That's the main reason why i think the votes for it was so low.Quote:
Originally Posted by KoujiGeki
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09-04-2012, 05:10 AMKioteYou my friend, are delusional.Quote:
Originally Posted by Firon
Also, most "Main Characters" in the Final Fantasy Series didn't have classes set in stone. For most of them, you can consider every Character a Red Mage. -
09-04-2012, 06:06 AMDuelleYou're right that we've never had a Red Mage protagonist in an FF game. The closest we ever got was Terra, though she's classified as a Magitek Knight along with Celes. RDM seems for fit for a background cast type of character. It just has never lended itself to the leadership role, and is not as forthcoming as a knight or something along those lines.Quote:
Originally Posted by Firon
That said, I think what may have kept people from voting for RDM was the fact that it was mentioned as a front line enfeebler. If it had been presented as a hybrid class or combat caster people may have been a little more receptive. While it had its uses, XI's RDM is something I feel a good number of people don't want to see again. -
09-04-2012, 06:22 AMMijinWhile your right that we never had a main character from a FF that was set as a RDM. RDM's are still pretty iconic considering they've been around since FF1, and they were one of the most popular jobs in FFXI.Quote:
Originally Posted by Firon
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09-04-2012, 06:38 AMFironYou stupid? All those jobs i named, chars was those jobs. Did you ever play FF?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiote
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09-04-2012, 06:52 AMNefGPAll they've said is they just feel there aren't enough mages yet. I'm reserving judgment on SMN until I actually see it in action, as I wasn't particularly keen on seeing a repeat of FFXI and much more in favor of the traditional offline style of play - strategic use of summons (due to large MP costs) to swing the tide of battle in the party's favor with various flashy and extremely powerful effects. Of course, the typical response I see to that is you'd be killing BLM, but BLM has always been designed for steady, high impact attacks - SMN might be able to out damage a BLM in a single shot, but a BLM will always win out in MP efficiency vs a single target - that's the whole point. SMN is utility, BLM is for making shit dead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Platinumstorm
Anyway. I just hope they don't gimp SMN in this like they did in XI. The job's gotten better since Abyssea, but it's still been flawed since it's inception. I'm really hoping SMN can still use things like Hellfire & Aerial Blast, maybe just not as powerful as they would be coming from the actual Primal. Please, just don't rehash Astral Flow... nobody wants that.
As far as RDM is concerned, I never really cared for the direction they took the job in with XI, and I sincerely hope they are rethinking it from when they asked in the polls - We sorely do need more enfeebling skills, but I think we'd be better served spread it out between WHM & BLM, and possibly DRK if it's ever added.
No more pink mage/refresh whore please. If you bring RDM back, at least try to make it similar to how BLU was done? BLU was much better designed as a "Fighter-Mage", and Red Wizard (FF1) was just amazing.
EDIT: Okay, here's how I personally see RDM working.
Base Class: Gladiator
Sub Class: Thaumaturge
Extra Skills: Conjurer
Allow RDM to use Cure/Cura/Thunder/Thundara etc, just not the final tier spells so they can still combo and be effective, just not as good as WHM or BLM would because they're not supposed to be. We should have new Epee-type swords/sabers that are RDM exclusive as well (can't use them as just GLA).
Job Skills:
- Refresh: Recovers MP over time (spell, targetable)
- Regain: Recovers TP over time (spell, targetable)
- Fast Cast: When active, reduces casting and recast times for spells. Reduces magic accuracy slightly. Effect ends upon re-use.
- Death Blossom: 3-fold sword weaponskill that reduces enemy's magic evasion. Combo Action: Swift Blade, Combo: Greatly reduces enemy's magic critical evasion
- Chainspell: Cast & Recast timers for all spells set to 0 for duration (15 seconds) and their MP costs halved.
So rather than just rehashing how it was in XI, this way RDM would really be a frontline mage, offering a balance of damage and support without stepping on WHM or BLM's toes, as well as bringing it's own unique abilities to the fray. -
09-04-2012, 06:54 AMMijinhttp://oi45.tinypic.com/2qa0m53.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Firon
Here's my main character in Final Fantasy. I call him Redi the Red Mage. :P -
09-04-2012, 06:56 AMTonkra
rdm is such a boring class, which does not bring anything new to the game.. fire, thunder.. spells.. then try out blm... healing spells... get a whm... sword ws .. try out a gladiator..
seriously.. smn is much more interesting then. well sorry i was never a real big fan of rdm.
but good thing, that not anybody wants to play a petclass like smn ;) -
09-04-2012, 06:57 AMMijinExcept stuff like enfeebling magic, refresh, enspells, and chainspell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonkra
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09-04-2012, 07:21 AMFironRDM was only a enfeeb in XI and in other games that was the BLM's job as well like he said rdm brings nothing new to the table. RDM is usually a weak class. The one thing RDM did bring to the table and that was Double cast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mijin
Enspells was basically done by mystic knight and brd had mp recover spells in old Ff games as well, so what has rdm brought new? nothing. -
09-04-2012, 07:43 AMLevianBy your logic in the bolded sentence, they should have avoided Summoner like the plague because it wasn't so hot in a previous title (XI). You can't judge what a class is going to be based on what it was in previous iterations. If you played FF titles before VII, the redmage option was usually pretty kickass to have around. It swung a sword just as well as a warrior, with the benefit of having cures/nukes if the situation arose where you needed them more than another sword. If they go about designing it properly, it could be worth having around, and I mean as more than just a refresh/haste whore, in XIV.Quote:
Originally Posted by Firon
By that same token, SMN, which has been a proven performer, could be held back (once again) by poor design. Or it could be as amazing as it's previous iterations. I won't likely be playing it, but all the same I hope for the latter. I'm not going to wish ill on anyone's favored job. But, the only way to know will be to check it out in 2.0. -
09-04-2012, 07:45 AMLeoheartNot sure if trollin'Quote:
Originally Posted by Levian
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09-04-2012, 07:47 AMMijinSo make FFXIV's rdm like FFXI's RDM.Quote:
Originally Posted by Firon
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09-04-2012, 07:48 AMNefGPYou're looking at it the wrong way. Now, being an MMO the job has to have SOME uniqueness to it, but the allure of RDM has always been the versatility - the fact that it can do many rolls quite well. Not so well that you'd use it to replace a specialist like WHM or BLM, but well enough to fill in any holes in the party as well as enable strong solo play skills.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonkra
I personally feel GLA is the best choice for a base class rather than making a whole new one, as it's got all the right base skills and equipment available that a Red Wizard would have had access to in FF1. A RDM is not going to outshine anyone, but it can certainly fill in any gaps there may be. RDM was very useful in XI, but I never really found it to be much fun.
The melee side of the job was completely half-assed; inadequate or ridiculously rare & expensive gear just to catch up to an average DD. Worthless enspells (unless you're into 0-tp dagger style play) and lackluster nuking ability didn't help either (thanks to XI's skill system and giving RDM only a C+ rating - DRK HAD BETTER SKILL!!! @_@) Couple that with high MP endurance, half-decent cures and strong enfeebling magic and well, you could just forget about the "Fighter" part.
I'm not saying my proposal is perfect, but it's at least a template that offers what I think most of us who have loved the job since FF1 want to play. I love mixing up magic & swordplay without having to worry that I'm just not up to the task. -
09-04-2012, 08:14 AMLevianDon't go takin my words out of context. If I were trollin, you'd know it. It's a fact that they didn't live up to expectations in XI. If you base your opinion of whether or not to include a job on the titles they struck a sour note in, you could also include (once again thanks to XI) DRG. But this is a new game, with new mechanics, so you can't do that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leoheart
Edit: @ NefGP - I think the bigger problem with RDM meelee was it's B- sword/dagger skill. You could never make up for that, even with Merits. The fact that even in the hands of a job with A grade skill sword WS were lackluster didn't help either. -
09-04-2012, 09:01 AMFironWhile smn wasn't a end all job in XI it was still good. and SMN being kinda weak in one game doesn't make up for the rdm being weak in all of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Levian
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09-04-2012, 09:20 AMWynn
RDM isn't weak in all of them... just XI. And really... not even that. That's just player perception.
Could a weak class solo crap that other classes need a party for? I think not. -
09-04-2012, 09:27 AMSwordCoheirIt was actually a plethora of problems on both the mage and melee side that hurt RDM badly. You could say one side is a little bad like B level sword/dagger skill and nobody would say anything because their mindset was "eh it's just one little problem no biggie every job as a few", but the problem was there were too damn many "one little problems".Quote:
Originally Posted by Levian
Like:
-Poor Merit Selection, and under powered merit spells.
-RDMs "niche" in enfeebling lacks any real exclusive spells outside of Gravity II and poor merit spells.
-Enfeebles were often straight resisted by anything worth a damn.
-Had a ridiculous amount of 3 minute single target and self-buff spells, so even if RDM had good offensive capabilities it was severely hindered by constant casting/recasting.
-There were no weapons that gave the benefits of the Elemental staff affinities, you essentially were married to staves.
-No physically offensive traits.
-Only one physically offensive Job ability.
-Role was often based solely on subjob.
-No powerful weaponskills form Swords.
-No powerful Daggers outside of Mandau (till recently mind you).
-2h update completely obliterated 1h capacity to melee.
-Damage from 1h and 2h weapons continues to grow wider apart.
-RDM Enhancing spells scaled poorly.
-T2 Enspells are flat out broken.
And the Big one...
-Magic and Physical aspects were kept completely separate from one another.
And when SE tried to force the magic part onto the physical like with T2 Enspells you either had to bring down your Physical damage to make your Enspells stronger or bring down your Enspell damage to make your Physical side stronger it was a very lose-lose situation. The fact BLU really shined is because it's physical and magical properties are tied within each other in a harmony that SE should have taken a hint from and applied to RDM which is in need of a major revamp.
This of course doesn't discount the fact FFXI's developers have mostly left the job untouched for 8 years, had a knack for shooting down any worthwhile ideas to fix RDM, and often going one step further to rub salt in the wound when they give those ideas to other jobs who are already in a secure position like WHM or new jobs like GEO. -
09-04-2012, 09:28 AMJillyBean
Not me.
/10char -
09-04-2012, 09:53 AMDuelle
Erm...how can you say this:
And then suggest this:Quote:
Originally Posted by NefGP
While it needs tweaks, I personally like this version better:Quote:
- Refresh: Recovers MP over time (spell, targetable)
- Regain: Recovers TP over time (spell, targetable)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramsey
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09-04-2012, 12:31 PMLevianIn terms of sheer meelee capacity a lot of this can be scrapped. Anything regarding enfeebling would be moot anyway, like you said anything important resists it all. But you want to be swinging your sword not casting anyway. That brings us to the buffs it had. Aside from refresh, someone else should be taking care of those if you're in a meelee slot. Elemental staff affinities: Probably shouldn't be relevant either if they were to bend the rules of their system for rdm's combat spells. Far as the 2H update, I don't recall them changing 1 handers, correct me there if I'm wrong. Even if they did, until Abyssea it wasn't that big a spread. I'll admit that I don't know the state of the game now. I haven't played since about 6 months after WotG's release.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwordCoheir
As for things relevant to meelee, we'll start with skill cap. B grade, 250 for dagger & Sword. Most other 1h cap at A-, or 269. That's 19 points of accuracy, and if I remember the ratio properly, 57 points of attack you won't have. Merits won't close that gap, because the people you'd compete with will have those too. Same for gear & food (Even if the gear were available). That to me was always the largest hurdle the job faced. Everything else is a matter of adding some gear and tweaking some mechanics.
You could introduce WS that are worthwhile and RDM only. The enhancing spells could make up for the weaker weapons the job is afforded. You can even circumvent the magic-physical relationship by making RDM's meelee enhancing spells dole out a static number that can't be resisted, but can do extra damage to a mob with an elemental weakness, so you don't have to sacrifice Meelee power to buff up your enhancing spells.
Throw in a couple of tiers and maybe some merits for the enhancement spells and your scaling issue is fixed. If there's room for it, toss RDM a meritable magic based strike that can't be resisted (or is resisted less frequently) and deals the same type of elemental damage as your current Enh spell and you're giving Blu a run for it's money.
The first step to making it viable though, would be to close the 19 point skill gap and put it on a level plain with the competition. -
09-04-2012, 02:34 PMGrey_Cain
Can we just not have FFXI's RDM. I loved RDM in XI, I really did. But it was little more than half a WHM and half a BLM with a little sprinkling of melee on top that didn't really add any substance. I want RDM to be unique, without being chained to the ideas that XI instilled. Drop Refresh/Convert, drop En-spells, and drop the focus on enfeebling. And, just because, drop the sword, the staff, the dagger and the wand. Make them ranged or leave them melee, but do something new with the weapon at the very least because the sword/staff combo is so completely polarised as Melee-Only and Magic-Only that they can't even begin to work together.
Give them a balance of stats so that they can be as effective as both an attacker or a caster over time, even if their immediate numbers aren't great. Give them abilities that let them use both their magic and their attacks at the same time (not like En-s that were just there to give a boost to melee damage numbers, but like adding real spells from an otherwise ordinary spell list to their attacks), or let them rain down spells with their melee attacks; I'm envisioning area effects both healing and damage-wise with the target as the center of the effect, with sub-targeting for single target attacks/heals.
In XI, Red Mage was shown to be a pale imitation of more focused jobs where their few stand-out abilities were their only unique abilities. In XIV, please let them be something unique that isn't half a job combined with another half a job. Don't limit them to being underpowered just because they're versatile, but don't let them fill a single role better than any role-specific job either. I can't support a Red Mage that isn't more than the sum of its parts, but I can't justify one that makes another job obsolete either. -
09-04-2012, 04:44 PMJinrya-Geki
I figured Rdm never got a main character role because of all the crap he had to deal with blm and relised he'd have to deal with all the worlds problem + black mage if he were the main character said he said screw it.
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09-04-2012, 04:49 PMLum
Can we just not have both? But really though smn is way more important to have if you want that extra final fantasy feel to newcomers. Its alot more popular and i think it was a good decision to release smn before rdm.
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09-04-2012, 04:52 PMJinrya-Geki
I would love both, and more. I would like atleats 3 new class/jobs for disciple of magic before they even think of adding new Disciples of war.
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09-04-2012, 04:56 PMMijin
based on this RDM seems like it would be the next logical choice.
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09-04-2012, 04:58 PMFironYes Se should base their judgement on 186 ppl and rdm still isn't number 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mijin
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09-04-2012, 05:02 PMMijinSE should always base their choices on what players want, and I didn't say anything about it being number 1. I'm not saying to go off the poll with 186 people, I'm just saying the poll shows an example of what people want. Please don't blame me for your poor reading comprehension in the future.Quote:
Originally Posted by Firon
SE used a player poll to decide what job to add when they came up with SMN. I'm sure they will use official poll data when they decide what to add next, I'm just saying based on these 186 players, it's fair to make a hypothesis that people also want RDM, and may vote that way in a future official player poll. -
09-04-2012, 05:05 PMFironYou said their next logical choice should be based on that poll.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Mijin
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09-04-2012, 05:07 PMMijinUm... the quote is still up there. In two places actually, so it's pretty clear that's not what I said. Is English your first language?Quote:
Originally Posted by Firon
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09-04-2012, 06:01 PMFironHow are you not saying they shouldn't go off the poll? You are basically saying if Se is smart they should go off your poll....Quote:
Originally Posted by Mijin
based on this RDM seems like it would be the next logical choice. -
09-04-2012, 06:15 PMMijinI'm saying:Quote:
Originally Posted by Firon
based on this (what 200+/- forum users said here)
rdm seems like it would be the next logical choice (based on my pole seems like players would vote for RDM in an official pole)
There is a limit to how far you can take peoples words out of context for the sake of argument. At first I thought you were just trolling me, but then I went back and read some of your other posts, and now (sadly) I'm convinced you're actually serious. If you're that confused about what I said just drop the argument, and in the future don't make snide remarks until your fully read someones post. There was no reason for you to get all worked up in the first place. -
09-04-2012, 06:24 PMTonkra
i dont know what should be so exciting new about a red mage. i am happy, that with the SMN a pet system will be introduced.. and that is INDEED something new..
i think the red mage role is not really needed, when there is already a whm/blm in the game. a redmage would just be an extra for the redmage lovers.. who enjoy to do all at once. -
09-04-2012, 07:02 PMTabula
Here are a few things to take into consideration. The following is taken from the third (and last) player poll that concluded on march 26th of this year:
This pole allowed you to pick two choices, the poll results were never posted. I assume this was so that people wouldn't know what jobs they were intending to release.Quote:
==Battle System and Combat Classes==
Q1. What type of jobs/classes would you most like to see added? (Up to 2 answers allowed) *
A. An assassin-type class that uses lethal and stealthy attacks. (ex. Ninja, Thief, etc.)
B. One that controls and fights alongside a pet or avatar. (ex. Summoner, Puppetmaster, etc.)
C. A new type of magic-user that uses enfeebling magic and close-range attacks. (ex. Red Mage, etc.)
D. A new type of fighter that uses enfeebling attacks and inflicts special damage. (ex. Dark Knight, etc.)
E. An original class unlike any of those described above. (ex. Musketeer, Arithmetician, etc.)
The following here is taken from a fan translation of the recent interview with Yoshi-P during the 25th anniversary event (the same interview where they announced smn):
If this is to be interpreted as they have already decided on which jobs/classes they will be releasing first (which is how I interpret it) then based on the jobs offered on the march player poll, and the results of Mijin's poll, it may be a possibility that they are already planning on adding RDM in the very near future, if not with the release of 2.0. Of course this is purely speculative, and we cant be sure that the poll results match (even though they probably do.) However I think this is enough evidence to form a plausible hypothesis that they may already be planing of releasing RDM.Quote:
Host: But what about people who are already level 50?
Yoshi-p: They can look forward to the high level content we announced, and there are still some unannounced contents, such as raids, and new classes, chocobo raising, and other stuff.
Not saying it's going to happen, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did is all. -
09-04-2012, 08:55 PMValiant
hate to say it but i see them bringing back dark knight or blue mage before red mage.. a red mage might be a jack of all trades.. but they get no master white or black magic making them sub par in that catagory.. and since they were to master enfeebs and enhance magic everyone gets their own enhance abilities to some degree and bard does enhancement... and enfeebs and dots are going to summoner.. i see no need with the current class setup for red mage unless they bring back all elemental armors and weapon spells for damage boosting, preventing, dots, etc.. red mage is useless