Player Drop Off and Accessibility/Diffculty

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Originally Posted by Valence

In my opinion over this topic, we've been seeing a consistent crack in the community between the old design and the new and it's not going to get better over time. That's on them for changing the game's genre halfway through.

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at this point from an MMO they are making some action-rpg game where action is overtaken by insta deaths during the fights.
It's boring to learn those patterns where to stand all the time over and over again each time something new comes out.

Which came from the original massive change that was the jobs

You aren’t going to see them change from this current encounter formula until the jobs are changed because the current beige slop jobs cannot support any other design without being unbelievably boring

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Originally Posted by Halfrek62

I know there has been a lot of chatter about player drop off recently, and it has mostly been attributed to lack of content. However, I think there may be another factor at play here, and this is coming from a personal pov, so please hear me out.

There is a player base in this game that likes to do stuff at max level and ins't doing the latest difficulty dungeon ... they enjoy housing, glam and a myriad of other things, which has been the attraction of ffxiv in the first place ... and this for a long time has been the draw of the game for many players, including older players, disabled players, those who may play for themselves, with their children, or even grandchildren in some cases. They happily made their way through the MSQ, making mistakes and learning, not burdening other players with their lack of speed and reactions, and making their way via duty support to end game.

However, come DT and things changed.. The speed with which aoe's are chucked out is ridiculous for some players except almost professional players. Yes, we can work out our mistakes, yes, we can move when need, but not at that speed. Not as an older/disabled player.

I think that it's not only the lack of content, diffuculty of content or whatever ... I think alot of older and/or disabled players that enjoyed the game and invested a lot of money through subs and/or online store purchases, have now decided it all too much and cancelled their subs. They cannnot progress any further, especially if, as Yoshi has said, it will get even more difficult.

I know my post is coming from only one part of the fandom, but I also know that many other parts are unhappy, so what should they do ... or will they go down the Blizz route and not listen to anyone?

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I hate saying these things, but we need to quit using old age or disabilities as an excuse for not learning how to properly play. We're playing an MMO, let's be honest, 90% of us are old 40+ and I have inattentive ADHD, so realistically I fit that category of not being able to do high-end content because I'm old and I can't catch on to mechanics quickly because of lack of focus, but here I am running savage an ultimates. There are FFXIV players with multiple missing fingers or even missing arms that run high-end content. It's not a lack of ability we're talking about when it comes to difficulty it's a lack of willingness to adapt and grow. If people worse off than us can do high-end content why can't casual players learn normal content.

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Originally Posted by Xapapetsu

I hate saying these things, but we need to quit using old age or disabilities as an excuse for not learning how to properly play. We're playing an MMO, let's be honest, 90% of us are old 40+ and I have inattentive ADHD, so realistically I fit that category of not being able to do high-end content because I'm old and I can't catch on to mechanics quickly because of lack of focus, but here I am running savage an ultimates. There are FFXIV players with multiple missing fingers or even missing arms that run high-end content. It's not a lack of ability we're talking about when it comes to difficulty it's a lack of willingness to adapt and grow. If people worse off than us can do high-end content why can't casual players learn normal content.

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Because not every disability is the same. I'm personally lucky enough that the worst I have to deal with is hands going numb while gaming, but when it does happen I have no choice but to endure the pain until the end of the duty or stop playing entirely.

Learning is a lot harder when your hands don't move properly, and that's just my example. I'm sure there's plenty of other people with different issues than yours or mine.

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Originally Posted by Valence

In my opinion over this topic, we've been seeing a consistent crack in the community between the old design and the new and it's not going to get better over time. That's on them for changing the game's genre halfway through.

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I completely agree. The game is clearly heading in the wrong direction. Fights haven't felt like role-playing for a long time now; there's no lore, no interesting strategies, no Warrior of Light as such, instead there's a crowd of 4 or 8 people running around the field like headless chickens until they learned the mechanics, or running like robots once they did, that's all.

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Originally Posted by Xapapetsu

I have inattentive ADHD, so realistically I fit that category of not being able to do high-end content because I'm old and I can't catch on to mechanics quickly because of lack of focus, but here I am running savage an ultimates.

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I hate saying these things, but we need to quit using "here I am running savage an ultimates" as an example or response to all the criticism. You see, if you enjoy and have the opportunity to spend hours battling and tormenting yourself with low-quality content and memorizing endless AoEs, that's your choice, but that doesn't mean other people enjoy the same things. The problem isn't even age or disabilities; the problem is that developers only see one way to make content more challenging.

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Originally Posted by RajNish

I completely agree. The game is clearly heading in the wrong direction. Fights haven't felt like role-playing for a long time now; there's no lore, no interesting strategies, no Warrior of Light as such, instead there's a crowd of 4 or 8 people running around the field like headless chickens until they learned the mechanics, or running like robots once they did, that's all.



I hate saying these things, but we need to quit using "here I am running savage an ultimates" as an example or response to all the criticism. You see, if you enjoy and have the opportunity to spend hours battling and tormenting yourself with low-quality content and memorizing endless AoEs, that's your choice, but that doesn't mean other people enjoy the same things. The problem isn't even age or disabilities; the problem is that developers only see one way to make content more challenging.

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I never said people need to enjoy the content, they don't, the devs are also free to make whatever type of game they want instead of catering to what a specific group of people want. All I said was that using the excuse of being old or having a disability shouldn't be the response to a level of difficulty in a game. Sure some people are disabled to the point they legitimately cannot progress but that percentage is extremely low and FFXIV isn't the issue because they wouldn't be able to progress in any game that requires any level of reaction time if their disability is that bad. They would be better off in ultra casual games like animal crossing since it would fit their needs. FFXIV has a way to drag them through all normal content and that's duty finder, all normal content can be cleared with missing roles and missing players so if one is dead 99% of the time that doesn't prevent them from finishing the fight and moving forward with the story, it's also has a very easy mode for solo instances which makes the damage almost nothing so that they can still clear.

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Originally Posted by Mecia

Put the ''difficulty'' back into jobs.

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From someone for who things come easily: doing the thing isn't the hard part.

I shouldn't find it difficult to make my Warrior combo correctly, that should be instinct.

The difficulty should come in the decision-making from the outside (the encounter), not from the execution (the player's kit)

It's not very rpg-like if we're not doing any decision making with the player's kit imo, seems more like a shmup really.

I feel like people are over-dismissive of the disabled here. Disabilities come in a number of types.

Neurodivergent spectrum (an issue which A LOT of older generation gamers especially grapple with) people for instance frequently struggle intensely with sensory overload, which has been one of the latest gimmicks heavily used as "difficulty" these days.

People with vision issues genuinely ran into issues with EX4 to the point SE had to adjust color tones somewhat as a result.

Hand issues are becoming an increasingly severe problem if you have them (this started to really be noticeable with the mandatory full party QTE in the 5.3 trial; I remember a friend telling me it almost stopped her from continuing MSQ, and this was a person who was skilled enough to deal with the then-current Eden Savage tier!).

Age becomes an issue as well because reaction time slows down with age and we're being given less and less reaction time to register what's often less and less clear clues. Even skilled players cannot but switch to a "die and learn" methodology as the brain often simply does not operate fast enough to be able to deal with certain mechanics outside of pre-knowledge and reflex grooving (even the reaction times associated with DANGEROUS DRIVING - and we know how dangerous that is IRL - are slower than the ones asked from FFXIV raiding).

And essentially the game has frog boiled its way from being a more cognitive challenge (which older and less abled could handle better and gave older FFXIV so much of its enjoyment) to almost entirely an athletic one (which favors the young and abled and is apt to leave a lot of older people to the kind of embarrassing career end Brett Favre experienced, for instance lol).

It is true that WoW is even more fast paced in ways (1.5s GCD) but at the same time: it usually is structured to allow much more meaningful reactive play, and it's also slower in some ways.

Keep in mind that ranged attacks have a significantly longer range in WoW, also that the arenas are MUCH BIGGER which lends itself more to mechanics of the "you need someone out here to handle xyz that will happen there" type vs. the "stack on his butt" chestnut of FFXIV, and to rather less frantic avoidance of huge no-zones (especially when you also consider that in-combat speed boosts are much less uniform across WoW classes, and have been heavily muted in most of the post-WoD era due to "well, you see, agile movement is Demon Hunter's class fantasy!" leading to a round of heavy mobility nerfs back in Legion).

Also, while the WoW GCD is faster, the game is far lighter on oGCDs: you don't tend to have a lot of them in your damage rotation as you do here; they are almost exclusively for utility actions such as interrupts (and sometimes - keeping in mind that unlike SE, Blizz often change things up so much in a new xpac that it often almost might as well be a new game altogether - they try playing around with putting even those on the GCD, although this was vocally not well received by the players).

The big problem is we're likely hitting the limits of FFXIV's design: Job homogenization is all but forced by the fact that every slot in an 8 player raid is so severely oversubscribed (even WoW runs into issues with that for small group content on the reg such as high end Mythic+ teams being extremely homogenous and this meta often trickling down to the minds of group leads at much lower levels) and a lot of more varied mechanics have been tried and didn't work well within the system (Coils were a big graveyard of this), which leaves "push people to play big-league perfectly" as about the only thing they have left. I hope the new Myth Arc if we get one isn't too long, because I see maintenance mode in the nearer rather than further future for FFXIV as a result (and I sometimes wonder if this is why they compressed Endwalker which was IIRC originally meant to be a pair of expansions).

(And then there's the fact that Western feedback is stunted by 3000-char limits - Japanese being a LOT more space efficient generally - and janky editing requirements, dangit. LOL)

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Originally Posted by Azurarok

It's not very rpg-like if we're not doing any decision making with the player's kit imo, seems more like a shmup really.

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The distinction I'm making is one that spotlights the distinct control available to players via games like Monster Hunter or Metal Gear Solid, who have much more broad character control than tab-hotbar MMO's (Everquest, WoW, FFXIV). Characters in the aforementioned games (MGS, Monster Hunter) have a much more complex suite of actions/controls than any character in FFXIV could dream of having, given the limits of the system, but the actions performed by the players are inherently intuitive. Tab-Hotbar MMO's are disadvantaged in that every distinct action is a dedicated button, heedless of Context, character-state, etc.

Despite games like Monster Hunter and Metal Gear having far more freedom of character control and capabilities for actions, they are easier to control.

The point I'm arriving at is that without a sufficient solution in the engine for intuitive character manipulation, I'm not of the opinion that complicating a character's kit in a tab-hotbar MMO provides enrichment for the player. Before the solution of more complicated kits is explored, I'd rather years of development be spent gutting the entire concept of Actions/Spells as they stand now in lieu of a system of intuitive and bespoke character control, where class-expression then arises from artful and skillful expression.

I'd close with an example: Take a skillfully executed Ultimate in FFXIV, versus a moderately well executed hunt with 4 players in Monster Hunter; while observing the fight in FFXIV, what you interpret as skill, immediately, is the navigation of the fight's mechanics itself. You can't, as an observer, readily identify skillful execution of a job's kit. But you can see them navigating the mechanics and that is impressive. By contrast, whether someone is doing well or doing poorly (and as a player whether they feel fulfilment while playing) is immediately apparent in games like MonHun/MGS, both due to execution and navigation of an encounter. It's my opinion that to seek skillful expression in a game, doing so in the tab-hotbar MMO format is a flawed headspace, and we should seek to work within these limitations (leaning into encounter design rather than kit complexity), or forsake it completely and play a game where skill expression actually matters.

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Originally Posted by Xapapetsu

I never said people need to enjoy the content, they don't, the devs are also free to make whatever type of game they want instead of catering to what a specific group of people want.

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Okay, I'll make it more clear. For some reason, developers of other games have found a way to make hard content accessible to people with disabilities, while you're talking about an animal crossing farm. And by the way, you just said what disabled players should enjoy, although that's not up to you to decide. “If you can’t clear the content, either play another game or suffer the pain” is the most disgusting approach you can come up with.

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Originally Posted by AyumiCosplayGlam

I really do hope you are right about chaotic, because another of those should never,ever see the light of day, all that development time wasted for a week of content for so few people.
Fun fact, it barely has a higher clear rate than Cruiserweight Savage. A 24 man fight has barely higher clear rate than an 8 man savage raid, that is rough.

Forked Tower is a travesty, they should have worked on a normal mode all hands on deck after the backlash... its currently sitting at a 3.7% completion rate on lalachievements. Ultimates have higher clear rate than that...which is beyond embarassing.

Like i said, deep dungeon is debateable, its not hardcore by any means but its definitely not casual either and not because of the difficulty, but the accessibility.
PoTD should not be a requirement for this, plain and simple. Imagine if Occult crestent would require you to complete Eureka and Bozja because it has the same structure, makes 0 sense. Its not hard to create a 5 level tutorial in the unlock quest to teach them how it works, instead they are sent out to PotD...nice one.

Aside from that dumb unlock requirement, it should be in the duty finder, because while at the moment we dont have a population problem with it and parties fill fast, this will not be the case a few weeks from now on and you will be unable to complete it in a reasonable time with the que system and fixed party will be your only option and content that NEEDS you to organize people and keep them around for a relatively long time, is by no means a casual content.

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Personally I think Chaotic alliance raid wasn't that much of a bad idea, but it should have been about the difficulty level of an extreme, making it about the difficulty of a savage raid is just stupid. It seems difficult enough to find reliable PF to clear/reclear savages sometimes, I can't imagine how nightmarish it must be for a 24-man raid.

Forked Tower I agree completely. I just cannot understand how they could have thought that making the final raid of a content that is largely casual into savage-level was a good idea. And seeing that even the raiders aren't even interested in it, it makes the dev's decision even more ridiculous.

I honestly think the PotD requirement is fine. It doesn't require you to have completed it all, only the first 50 floors. That's something you can solo in about an evening without that much issues and would also teach you how deep dungeons work. Sure, they could have do it differently but let's be honest here, the requirement isn't so difficult and convoluted that no casual player could do it. Tho I do agree it would be better for everyone if they at least remove the fixed party.

But overall, I don't have much faith that any of these issues would be addressed at some point. People have complained for years now that healers aren't interesting to play in the vast majority of content and yet they still have a 2 buttons damage rotation.

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Originally Posted by Crafoutis

From someone for who things come easily: doing the thing isn't the hard part.

I shouldn't find it difficult to make my Warrior combo correctly, that should be instinct.

The difficulty should come in the decision-making from the outside (the encounter), not from the execution (the player's kit)

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There is nothing in the job kits that allows the encounter to be anything besides “do this or die” because there is nothing meaningful utility in the kits which is exactly why the encounters are the way they are

The closest is literally shield bash being a lifesaver in deep dungeons because you can basically infinitely stun mobs when too many roamers get pulled at once, but that only works in deep dungeons

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Originally Posted by Crafoutis

It's my opinion that to seek skillful expression in a game, doing so in the tab-hotbar MMO format is a flawed headspace, and we should seek to work within these limitations (leaning into encounter design rather than kit complexity), or forsake it completely and play a game where skill expression actually matters.

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Or unironically just play XIV pvp for skill expression.

If only pvp was that good lmao. You will get beaten very soon by people who abuse 3rd party tools or imbalanced teams. So don't bother.

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Originally Posted by RajNish

Okay, I'll make it more clear. For some reason, developers of other games have found a way to make hard content accessible to people with disabilities, while you're talking about an animal crossing farm. And by the way, you just said what disabled players should enjoy, although that's not up to you to decide. “If you can’t clear the content, either play another game or suffer the pain” is the most disgusting approach you can come up with.

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How is this such a bad approach? This has been a very normal thing since the beginning of gaming. Not every video game is made for everybody. If you don't like a video game or can't play it for any reason... go find one that you do enjoy or that you can play.
I've seen people cry about spiders in a horror game.. like... its a horror game... it is supposed to make you uncomfortable.

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Originally Posted by Neon231

How is this such a bad approach? This has been a very normal thing since the beginning of gaming. Not every video game is made for everybody. If you don't like a video game or can't play it for any reason... go find one that you do enjoy or that you can play.
I've seen people cry about spiders in a horror game.. like... its a horror game... it is supposed to make you uncomfortable.

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Arachnophobia is nothing more than just about making people uncomfortable. Noted.

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Originally Posted by RajNish

Okay, I'll make it more clear. For some reason, developers of other games have found a way to make hard content accessible to people with disabilities, while you're talking about an animal crossing farm. And by the way, you just said what disabled players should enjoy, although that's not up to you to decide. “If you can’t clear the content, either play another game or suffer the pain” is the most disgusting approach you can come up with.

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Could you give me references? Specifically in action based games. Fromsoft doesn't work, maybe ff15 works since you just hold down one button to dodge, or ff12 since you just setup party macros and walk away. Aside from that I can only think of difficulty sliders but that doesn't work when speaking on difficult content since difficulty content would be like setting the difficulty to hard or the hardest difficulty.

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Originally Posted by Yeonhee

Personally I think Chaotic alliance raid wasn't that much of a bad idea, but it should have been about the difficulty level of an extreme, making it about the difficulty of a savage raid is just stupid. It seems difficult enough to find reliable PF to clear/reclear savages sometimes, I can't imagine how nightmarish it must be for a 24-man raid.

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And what exactly is savage worthee mechanic in that raid? The hands telegraph? The towers? Sitting with your alliance? The stored mechanics?

Take Rubicante as an example, that fight was vastly more complex than any mechanic Chaotic has. Let's not kid ourselves and shift the blame to the design. There should come a time when people actually take accountability and admit that what made it savage and miserable overall was the people.

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

And what exactly is savage worthee mechanic in that raid? The hands telegraph? The towers? Sitting with your alliance? The stored mechanics?

Take Rubicante as an example, that fight was vastly more complex than any mechanic Chaotic has. Let's not kid ourselves and shift the blame to the design. There should come a time when people actually take accountability and admit that what made it savage and miserable overall was the people.

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Pretty much the only savage mechanic in that fight is the body check during towers and it's only an issue because its a 24 man and only 3 people can miss a tower. The rest is EX at best.

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Originally Posted by Xapapetsu

Pretty much the only savage mechanic in that fight is the body check during towers and it's only an issue because its a 24 man and only 3 people can miss a tower. The rest is EX at best.

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Incorrect. It's not even a body check in the traditional sense. Body check means everyone instantly wipes if 1 person misses it because you are getting vuln up, which doesn't happen. You can consider the Rapid-sequence Particle Beam a body check too..lol.

You can easily bypass that with either Tank LB or having competent healers that mitigate it, unless you have multiple people failing the mechanic and then only tank LB will save you. Anything else?

As someone with a disability I don’t find the game hard but not to easy either. Some days I will find some dungeons or raids harder than others and some I’m completely fine with. Deadwalk the level 100 dungeon the other day I got it twice in my roos (1 before reset one after) first boss both times I died. I don’t know honestly if it was because of a slight bit of lag or that I was feeling off as my pain levels were acting up and was more tired. I got it again today in my roos and no problem.

A lot of things does come down to memory and I do have a few issues there but I like the harder mechs I like when I die and think why did that happen and then I learn. As my disability prevents me from a normal life XIV’s more tricker mechs keeps my brain functioning better than doing nothing.

As for savage and high end my biggest issue is I do have more anxiety going into PF on my own but that’s more with the extremes as for savage I would prefer a static but have had trouble finding one that sticks around for the whole tier and may come back for the next one. I kinda need to find one that would understand if I’m not feeling great to reschedule tho I have often pushed through these things. Even trying to do UWU once with the sound off as my household caught covid.

I don’t know what square could do to make it more accessible for people with disabilities. I know I would definitely appreciate a more muted ‘flash bang’ that wants to blind you in places. Alexander comes to mind and the Alexandria dungeon does too. But most days I can deal with that if I’m subjected to it.

I did see something recently about what if XIV had a similar system to XVI in the sense of accessories that may make MSQ related content easier. If they did that could that help. I don’t know how the could implement it but it’s a possibility

Strayborough's first boss is notoriously bad with the game's latency problems. There's some amount of baiting ranged jobs can do to help make dodging a little easier but it's largely just hoping the netcode will behave well enough.

Level Cap roulette's queues are weirdly long, even with the current population in mind, and I wouldn't be surprised if folks are avoiding it because of that dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Myotis

I think this discussion should be split in two where people want the easier dungeons - here the issue is that the game doesn't introduce the harder mechanics over the time in each expansion

from quite boring savage where you are forced to restart all the time and your personal skill is not meaningful due to DDR formula what is soooo outdated in modern gaming.

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There absolutely is personal skill involved in savage (and ult) fights that can make meaningful changes and even save runs.

For healers, one example is if something goes wrong such as a player dying, being able to rez them while still doing mechanics means keeping the fight going and preventing total failure (this can be done even in all ultimates too because windows of time exist where a death wont wipe you).
For even more healer skill expression, knowing to top off the party and mit before rezzing a player, not tunnel visioning the moment someone dies and forgetting to keep everyone alive first. Want more? Noticing that mit is missing on at attack that may kill everyone and then adding the requisite missing amount to save the run.

For tanks, the mit thing also applies. Another example for tanks is if a player is low and needs to be healthy before a mechanic begins, they can quickly throw their mit to that player, doing things like that in a split second to save someone and potentially saving an entire run is skill expression.

For DPS, I would agree there that there is not as many options for them to show it, but the best they can do is doing their rotation as perfectly as possible so that if anyone messes up their rotation or a player dies, we would be so far ahead of the dps check that the death would be negligible. This could also be said for healers slidecasting properly and tanks doing their rotos properly as well, any extra damage you squeeze out gives you more room for error.

Skill expression does exist in this game in many forms, although it is definitely not that exciting now with current encounter and job design.

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Originally Posted by Stroodle

There absolutely is personal skill involved in savage (and ult) fights that can make meaningful changes and even save runs.

For healers, one example is if something goes wrong such as a player dying, being able to rez them while still doing mechanics means keeping the fight going and preventing total failure (this can be done even in all ultimates too because windows of time exist where a death wont wipe you).

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Sure, it can be done but it depends heavily on when the death happens. If it's right before a body check there is basically nothing you can do. The other issue is that since most mechanics nowadays are designed to need exactly 8 people to solve it correctly, even if they aren't a guaranteed wipe, that one death will very likely cause additional ones since someone else is now getting hit by two mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Stroodle

For even more healer skill expression, knowing to top off the party and mit before rezzing a player, not tunnel visioning the moment someone dies and forgetting to keep everyone alive first. Want more? Noticing that mit is missing on at attack that may kill everyone and then adding the requisite missing amount to save the run.

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True, it's one of the few remaining avenues for skill expression, but even here it's a "it depends".
Because now you're missing that cooldown for the mechanic that it was intended to cover, potentially just postponing a wipe by a few seconds.
Usually fine if you're in comms with your team, not so much when you're dealing with PF.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Sure, it can be done but it depends heavily on when the death happens. If it's right before a body check there is basically nothing you can do. The other issue is that since most mechanics nowadays are designed to need exactly 8 people to solve it correctly, even if they aren't a guaranteed wipe, that one death will very likely cause additional ones since someone else is now getting hit by two mechanics.

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Yeah it all depends on the timing, a badly timed death and its all over, but all fights have moments that can be saved.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

True, it's one of the few remaining avenues for skill expression, but even here it's a "it depends".
Because now you're missing that cooldown for the mechanic that it was intended to cover, potentially just postponing a wipe by a few seconds.
Usually fine if you're in comms with your team, not so much when you're dealing with PF.

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Yeah that one has its ups and downs too, you either are with someone you can coordinate with or hope the PF members notice something was amiss and can compensate later in the fight.

I wanted to show some ways that skill expression does exist and its not just 0, but the ways they can be shown aren't the greatest either, since a lot of conditions need to be met. Another dig at the bad job a fight design.

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Originally Posted by Stroodle

There absolutely is personal skill involved in savage (and ult) fights that can make meaningful changes and even save runs.

For healers, one example is if something goes wrong such as a player dying, being able to rez them while still doing mechanics means keeping the fight going and preventing total failure (this can be done even in all ultimates too because windows of time exist where a death wont wipe you).
For even more healer skill expression, knowing to top off the party and mit before rezzing a player, not tunnel visioning the moment someone dies and forgetting to keep everyone alive first. Want more? Noticing that mit is missing on at attack that may kill everyone and then adding the requisite missing amount to save the run.

For tanks, the mit thing also applies. Another example for tanks is if a player is low and needs to be healthy before a mechanic begins, they can quickly throw their mit to that player, doing things like that in a split second to save someone and potentially saving an entire run is skill expression.

For DPS, I would agree there that there is not as many options for them to show it, but the best they can do is doing their rotation as perfectly as possible so that if anyone messes up their rotation or a player dies, we would be so far ahead of the dps check that the death would be negligible. This could also be said for healers slidecasting properly and tanks doing their rotos properly as well, any extra damage you squeeze out gives you more room for error.

Skill expression does exist in this game in many forms, although it is definitely not that exciting now with current encounter and job design.

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As a healer main doing progging the Ultimates i would say no.
Even if you res someone the next mechanic will just pop the window is quite small then they still have the debuff so there is a dps loss all depends on the fight - Is it really something super skillful? I don't feel it is they did not been standing on the right pixel - so the next body check mechanic will wipe the grup quite easly.

As for tanks missed mitigation usually does wipe out the party so i don't agree with your arguments.

Whole fight is just scripted and it is against a personal player skill do as they say or embrace the restart.

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Originally Posted by Myotis

As for tanks missed mitigation usually does wipe out the party so i don't agree with your arguments.

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If we're talking about the usual party mitigation from tanks then yes, the party just dies if you don't use it when you're supposed to, there is no decision to be made.

Stroodle is most likely talking about the short cooldown mitigation that every tank has.
Since tank damage is a joke in most fights you only need it for a tank buster, which leaves you with a lot of opportunities to throw a Heart of Corundum or Nascent Flash on someone that's too low on HP to survive the next raidwide.

Unfortunately that situation is rather rare.
If a DPS does a mechanic wrong in savage they're usually just dead.
And if it's the expected damage they should take from a mechanic then it already gets covered by the healer's planned AoE, since modern mechanics pretty much always hit the entire party and everyone needs healing anyway.

It used to happen a bit more often that someone was lower HP than expected because the heal didn't catch them, before they buffed healer AoE range into outer space.
But notice a pattern here, everything that could potentially have lead to player skill expression got patched out of the game at some point because it was deemed "inconvenient".

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

If we're talking about the usual party mitigation from tanks then yes, the party just dies if you don't use it when you're supposed to, there is no decision to be made.

Stroodle is most likely talking about the short cooldown mitigation that every tank has.
Since tank damage is a joke in most fights you only need it for a tank buster, which leaves you with a lot of opportunities to throw a Heart of Corundum or Nascent Flash on someone that's too low on HP to survive the next raidwide.

Unfortunately that situation is rather rare.
If a DPS does a mechanic wrong in savage they're usually just dead.
And if it's the expected damage they should take from a mechanic then it already gets covered by the healer's planned AoE, since modern mechanics pretty much always hit the entire party and everyone needs healing anyway.

It used to happen a bit more often that someone was lower HP than expected because the heal didn't catch them, before they buffed healer AoE range into outer space.
But notice a pattern here, everything that could potentially have lead to player skill expression got patched out of the game at some point because it was deemed "inconvenient".

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I belive he meant the miti used for ride wides yet it's still soo scripted that there is none of the freedom it doesn't feel like a clash with boss where boss actually does deal the damage healers heal and dps swirl around it solving stuff.
It's just another boring dance the same we had for 8 years and making it quicker , with souls like punishments is just tiring long term , unfun and frustrating.
Woahhh learn where to stand on certain frame of the fight ... *next patch * - woaaah learn again it's the same but gotchhh yaaa it looks diffrent nowww ... I don't know what hopes i have for 8.0 if they will keep those classes so homogenized and fights so forced to act as they want us.

I can tell who doesn't play healer from the amount of people here throwing their hands up in the air and saying even if you res someone, you wipe. In Ultimates, maybe, but most savages have enough wiggle room to make it so healers can EASILY res the dps into the DPS' correct position, then run/dash over to their own position. Which is the skill aspect. But yeah, if you're a non-support DPS you're mostly snoozing lol.

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Originally Posted by 0blivion

I can tell who doesn't play healer from the amount of people here throwing their hands up in the air and saying even if you res someone, you wipe. In Ultimates, maybe, but most savages have enough wiggle room to make it so healers can EASILY res the dps into the DPS' correct position, then run/dash over to their own position. Which is the skill aspect. But yeah, if you're a non-support DPS you're mostly snoozing lol.

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It depends on the timing. Savage is more lenient, but even there, there are limited times when you can save the run. It also vastly depends on which turn of the tier it is. The higher you go, the fewer opportunities you get; however, I will say that good healers absolutely make a lot of difference.

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

It depends on the timing. Savage is more lenient, but even there, there are limited times when you can save the run. It also vastly depends on which turn of the tier it is. The higher you go, the fewer opportunities you get; however, I will say that good healers absolutely make a lot of difference.

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I do agree with that take! The current tier is weird because M6S is very much a "you can die until add phase and after add phase, not in add phase though" fight, meanwhile M4S from last tier was such a pushover that unless you failed Sunrise or EE2 you could recover almost anything. It does get nasty from M7S though, lol. But yeah Idk, the game did get dumbed down, but the attention span of the average FFXIV player is low enough that healers won't run out of stuff to do for a while... unless you're in a static because then most things will go smoothly.

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Originally Posted by 0blivion

I do agree with that take! The current tier is weird because M6S is very much a "you can die until add phase and after add phase, not in add phase though" fight, meanwhile M4S from last tier was such a pushover that unless you failed Sunrise or EE2 you could recover almost anything. It does get nasty from M7S though, lol. But yeah Idk, the game did get dumbed down, but the attention span of the average FFXIV player is low enough that healers won't run out of stuff to do for a while... unless you're in a static because then most things will go smoothly.

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M6S is not so much when people die, but who dies. If it's the tanks, well, GL and fingers crossed! Everyone else is not that critical. You can still save the run, including missing towers, either with extra mits for the spicy dot or tank LB.

M4s did have some key moments when you had to have everyone. EE2, more than EE1, then it was Cannons, followed by transition with short opportunities for raises, because the last AOE was a semi body check, and then as soon as you changed the platform, you had another soft body check. Pvp Cannons was funny but you could still get lucky and have 1 healer survive and raise everyone. Because of how Cannons functioned. Towers+ bait followed by dodging to the safe side, and then into the second towers + baits, so you did have a lot of opportunities to get people up.

I do have to say, M7S did not have a lot of body checks, but more of a mitigation + healing check + watch where you stand, or you won't beat enrage.

As for statics, I dunno man. I have been in statics that somehow managed to be worse than the average PF, and I do have to say, that's something of an achievement on its own right.

Another such topic? Means... It's not just one or two players who are worried about this. But for some reason, discussions about raids, savage, and other high-level activities immediately begin. However, people don't usually leave the game because of them - these are the ones who don't leave, but those who couldn't master the story content required for your character leave. The scheme works fine here: I hate it, I WON'T do it again. I think you've all forgotten why games exist at all (hint: for fun). From personal experience (and I've accumulated a lot over the decade of the game), a lot of my friends quit the game precisely because of the last add-on dungeons, specifically their crazy mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Tuchkin

Another such topic? Means... It's not just one or two players who are worried about this. But for some reason, discussions about raids, savage, and other high-level activities immediately begin. However, people don't usually leave the game because of them - these are the ones who don't leave, but those who couldn't master the story content required for your character leave. The scheme works fine here: I hate it, I WON'T do it again. I think you've all forgotten why games exist at all (hint: for fun). From personal experience (and I've accumulated a lot over the decade of the game), a lot of my friends quit the game precisely because of the last add-on dungeons, specifically their crazy mechanics.

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Fun is at the core of everything, fun is why a lot of people hated EW because of how damn easy it was which was why people wanted DT to be harder

The fun of the people at the absolute floor is not the only consideration in this discussion, we all want to have fun

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Originally Posted by Tuchkin

[...] a lot of my friends quit the game precisely because of the last add-on dungeons, specifically their crazy mechanics.

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That's not the dungeons fault which was still easy for a dungeon at level cap.
And if your friends called those "crazy mechanics" and quit due to that then...
sorry to say, but then they lack the basic skill for playing FFXIVs base content.

The issue is also not the story (Excluding DT, man... screw DTs MSQ) but once you do all that and arrive at current content you can do that in a matter of weeks and then have to wait (and pay) for months till some recycled content comes along.

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Originally Posted by Myotis

I belive he meant the miti used for ride wides yet it's still soo scripted that there is none of the freedom it doesn't feel like a clash with boss where boss actually does deal the damage healers heal and dps swirl around it solving stuff.
It's just another boring dance the same we had for 8 years and making it quicker , with souls like punishments is just tiring long term , unfun and frustrating.
Woahhh learn where to stand on certain frame of the fight ... *next patch * - woaaah learn again it's the same but gotchhh yaaa it looks diffrent nowww ... I don't know what hopes i have for 8.0 if they will keep those classes so homogenized and fights so forced to act as they want us.

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For the tank mit I was talking about both, their personal single target mits that can be used on other party members that might save a life if they are low such as as ranged dps being too far away from healers (a common occurrence in raids) that might need something to live, and party mit if they notice something is missing before an incoming attack, they could use their shake/missionary/HoL/Veil or rep if its not normally supposed to be there.

But yes in general, there is not too much freedom of choice. Its either you rez here or you don't have the bodies required for the next mech and its over.

There is a few small things such as if LB3 is available, there's an incoming raidwide, the only person left is a healer, and the 2nd healer has the rez and has not accepted the rez yet, what they can do which I think is a skill in simply knowing the timing, is waiting to time the Accept button until after the raidwide has gone off (so that they themselves do not die to the raidwide) and before the instance determines the party has wiped so that they can get up and immediately LB3 to continue the run.
Another similar but slightly different example for healers would be the big raidwide coming and its just you left with an LB3, you time the LB such that it rezzes everyone and only you die, so the run can continue (and then you would get rezzed immediately afterwards). I've done this one myself in Ucob with the transition from p2 to p3, for one reason or another i was the only one left before the large hit before bahamut comes out, so I had to time the lb3 to get everyone up without them also dying to that raidwide.

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

M6S is not so much when people die, but who dies. If it's the tanks, well, GL and fingers crossed! Everyone else is not that critical. You can still save the run, including missing towers, either with extra mits for the spicy dot or tank LB.

M4s did have some key moments when you had to have everyone. EE2, more than EE1, then it was Cannons, followed by transition with short opportunities for raises, because the last AOE was a semi body check, and then as soon as you changed the platform, you had another soft body check. Pvp Cannons was funny but you could still get lucky and have 1 healer survive and raise everyone. Because of how Cannons functioned. Towers+ bait followed by dodging to the safe side, and then into the second towers + baits, so you did have a lot of opportunities to get people up.

I do have to say, M7S did not have a lot of body checks, but more of a mitigation + healing check + watch where you stand, or you won't beat enrage.

As for statics, I dunno man. I have been in statics that somehow managed to be worse than the average PF, and I do have to say, that's something of an achievement on its own right.

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I agree M6S towers are recoverable, but during add phase, I think basically anyone with "a job" needed to be alive. DMG doesn't matter now but when it did on MINE, damn that sucked. Admittedly, PF has been.... special. But also, I did hear of statics like yours and I express my sincere condolences. If I ever encounter you in PF I will be very nice to you.

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Originally Posted by Neon231

How is this such a bad approach? This has been a very normal thing since the beginning of gaming. Not every video game is made for everybody. If you don't like a video game or can't play it for any reason... go find one that you do enjoy or that you can play.
I've seen people cry about spiders in a horror game.. like... its a horror game... it is supposed to make you uncomfortable.

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You have just demonstrated in your own example the most striking example of ableism.

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Originally Posted by Xapapetsu

Could you give me references?

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SWTOR, Dread Master Calphayus, hard mode. Excellent mechanics: 4 people in the past, 4 in the future (otherwise wipe), tank swaps before boss pushed them to wall after tank receiving a debuff (otherwise wipe), escaping a raid-killing AoE as ranged dps who deals maximum damage to the boss (otherwise wipe), destroying a crystal in the right location (otherwise wipe), the need to carry seed while fighting with adds and plant it (otherwise wipe), the need to place relic on the altar (otherwise wipe), killing adds in a short time, otherwise an uncleanceable DoT (and wipe). And all of this is lore-based, smart, and you use tactics instead of running like headless chickens from AoE. MMO games are not limited to FF and the mechanics you are used to.

And in case you tell me to play one game over the other, I'll tell you right away, I've been playing both for several years, and for several years I've been wondering why the FF14 developers are so lacking in imagination.

[QUOTE=RajNish;6760134]You have just demonstrated in your own example the most striking example of ableism.


Ableism??? Huh??? Not every game is made for everyone lmao. You're not going to go play League of Legends and tell them it needs to be more like Dead by Daylight.
Its a video game btw, not a necessity. You're taking it WAY too serious. Lmao.