Just Nerf Picto

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Are NIN + SCH presence making a DPS check / enrage in Chaotic inconsequential by magnitudes like PCT in FRU? I get where the question is coming from, but I don't think it can be compared like this. From what I heard you don't really skip anything by having them present + the penalties for getting hit in general aren't like Ultimates anyways.

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I mean DPS checks in low savage floor equivalents with 24 people were never a concern to begin with. That doesn’t mean it isn’t weirdly hypocritical to be fine with SCH being EIGHTEEN percent ahead of all other healers while also being the strongest “healer” and NIN being 10-12% ahead of all other DPS with the rezz casters rivalling the damage casters just because the DPS check was never a concern

Common people want nerfs why not buff everything else?
Yoshi P said he did not want to nerf it for a reason you guys butt hurt over the job doing good instead of being butt hurt that your own job is not doing better...
I'm a BLM player and I say Picto should stay where it is... now make BLM stronger plz and thak you. :3

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I mean DPS checks in low savage floor equivalents with 24 people were never a concern to begin with. That doesn’t mean it isn’t weirdly hypocritical to be fine with SCH being EIGHTEEN percent ahead of all other healers while also being the strongest “healer” and NIN being 10-12% ahead of all other DPS with the rezz casters rivalling the damage casters just because the DPS check was never a concern

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I mean by that same token, should we start caring about Criterion Savage performance potentially favouring more selfish DPS like SAM + BLM because raid buff contribution means less there?

The reason 8-man raiding is seen as the balancing point is because most relevant content is actually using the 2-2-4 composition as their base, which just happens so to be that Ultimate, Savage and to a much lesser degree Extreme is part of. If 24-man raiding was the actual baseline for Savage and Ultimate, then we'd see balance changes based on that. Mug/Dokumori and Chain Stratagem is balanced around 8-man content specifically; if 24-man was our main raid format they'd be adjusted accordingly.

While a tangent, you can see similar balancing philosophy in PvP - it is primarily balanced around the 5v5 Crystalline Conflict mode, which is what they consider their main mode and where they put the most amount of work hours into. Some jobs are absolute monsters in 1v1 duels or in AOE scenarios exceeding 5 players, but balancing to those jobs is more likely done with job-specific scaling and nowadays map design.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

I mean by that same token, should we start caring about Criterion Savage performance potentially favouring more selfish DPS like SAM + BLM because raid buff contribution means less there?

The reason 8-man raiding is seen as the balancing point is because most relevant content is actually using the 2-2-4 composition as their base, which just happens so to be that Ultimate, Savage and to a much lesser degree Extreme is part of. If 24-man raiding was the actual baseline for Savage and Ultimate, then we'd see balance changes based on that. Mug/Dokumori and Chain Stratagem is balanced around 8-man content specifically; if 24-man was our main raid format they'd be adjusted accordingly.

While a tangent, you can see similar balancing philosophy in PvP - it is primarily balanced around the 5v5 Crystalline Conflict mode, which is what they consider their main mode and where they put the most amount of work hours into. Some jobs are absolute monsters in 1v1 duels or in AOE scenarios exceeding 5 players, but balancing to those jobs is more likely done with job-specific scaling and nowadays map design.

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By the same token of “8 man is the balancing stick” jobs are explicitly designed not to factor into large amounts of downtime which is why half of them barely function with it and the other half only barely tolerate it. Even before PCT it’s obvious that ultimate is not a balancing point because jobs that mitigate downtime have always been better in ultimates by margins that would justify changes in savage

SCH/NIN being overpowered because their buffs are debuffs on the boss is basically the same example of a weird individual quirk in design that also causes PCT to be favoured in ultimate

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

By the same token of “8 man is the balancing stick” jobs are explicitly designed not to factor into large amounts of downtime which is why half of them barely function with it and the other half only barely tolerate it. Even before PCT it’s obvious that ultimate is not a balancing point because jobs that mitigate downtime have always been better in ultimates by margins that would justify changes in savage

SCH/NIN being overpowered because their buffs are debuffs on the boss is basically the same example of a weird individual quirk in design that also causes PCT to be favoured in ultimate

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Really? PCT's dominance in fights with high downtime is "just" a weird individual quirk that simply favours it disproportionally more than every other jobt hat came before it? Come on, let's not repeat this song and dance - we had Ultimates since 4.1 and somehow through most of the time, we didn't have any such egrigious difference in performance between burst-favouring jobs and sustain-favouring jobs all this time until Pictomancer came along and just overshot the mark on burst capability while also being more than decent in sustain (high uptime) damage. It's fine for Pictomancer to be strong and have a niche that can outperform Black Mage, but not "my party can have deaths and damage downs but we are fine by default because we have Pictomancer" strong or "DPS checks are basically not a thing because we have Pictomancer" strong either.

Also, Pictomancer in Ultimate settings with 8 people and all the contribution it has is a much larger margin of the total damage contribution of the party VS NIN/SCH being present in 24-man. Even if everyone does perfect bursts to feed into Mug + Chain Stratagem, their total contribution to the combined alliance DPS would STILL be a much smaller margin than Pictomancer is in 8-man Ultimates.

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Originally Posted by Kahnha

Common people want nerfs why not buff everything else?
Yoshi P said he did not want to nerf it for a reason you guys butt hurt over the job doing good instead of being butt hurt that your own job is not doing better...
I'm a BLM player and I say Picto should stay where it is... now make BLM stronger plz and thak you. :3

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the problem with making everything stronger is all other fight lose they're balance and everything die to quickly too so sadly nerfing Picto is the best option here to

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Originally Posted by Nero-Voidstails

the problem with making everything stronger is all other fight lose they're balance and everything die to quickly too so sadly nerfing Picto is the best option here to

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This; power creep is a very real thing in this game and Squares insistence of buffing jobs to the level of the strongest job rather than balancing to a baseline that they've designed fights for is a big problem.

I keep seeing the routine rotation of this, "PCT is overpowered, its making powercreep, etc, etc, etc" but in same point, anytime the numbers come up. It seems to deaf ears. Because the numbers do not lie. PCT is not the end of the game content destroyer, and even if you cling to the FRU charts, you at best prove the following:

1. Each fight, as the charts prove, has a meta of top DMG jobs, and a combination that is better than another. FRU has PCT ontop, Chaotic has Ninja on top, and Savage 1-4 rotates who is on top. Spoilers, PCT is only on-top on FRU. Everywhere else it is something else.

2. Nobody is actually looking at the data, as they would realize the above mentioned item. Just to put into perspective, for chaotic. The most overpowered has somehow resulted in being 8th place. Next to MCH. The job everyone has meme'd on for being low DPS for a raid encounter. How does, the most overpowered job literally got that low?

3. People love to equate the peak capability, when the reality is comparing against the top of the player base, and if you dip into EXs and Savages, the gap of capability is more apparent. As the gap is about 30-40% of its peak capability. If the job was that easy, and overpowered the gap would not be that large.

So yea, I'm the big spooky Pictomancer Main now, but going to be honest with you. It is not the content destroying monster you make it out to be.

Yep, they should nerf it so meta slaves stop complaining about it.

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Originally Posted by Nasigno

I keep seeing the routine rotation of this, "PCT is overpowered, its making powercreep, etc, etc, etc" but in same point, anytime the numbers come up. It seems to deaf ears. Because the numbers do not lie. PCT is not the end of the game content destroyer, and even if you cling to the FRU charts, you at best prove the following:

1. Each fight, as the charts prove, has a meta of top DMG jobs, and a combination that is better than another. FRU has PCT ontop, Chaotic has Ninja on top, and Savage 1-4 rotates who is on top. Spoilers, PCT is only on-top on FRU. Everywhere else it is something else.

2. Nobody is actually looking at the data, as they would realize the above mentioned item. Just to put into perspective, for chaotic. The most overpowered has somehow resulted in being 8th place. Next to MCH. The job everyone has meme'd on for being low DPS for a raid encounter. How does, the most overpowered job literally got that low?

3. People love to equate the peak capability, when the reality is comparing against the top of the player base, and if you dip into EXs and Savages, the gap of capability is more apparent. As the gap is about 30-40% of its peak capability. If the job was that easy, and overpowered the gap would not be that large.

So yea, I'm the big spooky Pictomancer Main now, but going to be honest with you. It is not the content destroying monster you make it out to be.

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your squeaky hammer has destroyed millions

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Originally Posted by CVXIV

your squeaky hammer has destroyed millions

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Maybe in the forums, not monsters or people actually doing the content lol

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Originally Posted by CVXIV

your squeaky hammer has destroyed millions

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Just you wait until we learn to render Julyan's frying pan, then it's over for everyone.

Lets just make every other castrer have the samew rotatrion as picto!!! It worked for tanks in the name of balance im sure the gtame wont suffer at all from it

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Originally Posted by Nasigno

1. Each fight, as the charts prove, has a meta of top DMG jobs, and a combination that is better than another. FRU has PCT ontop, Chaotic has Ninja on top, and Savage 1-4 rotates who is on top. Spoilers, PCT is only on-top on FRU. Everywhere else it is something else.

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Sort by aDPS instead of rDPS. Scholar and NIN are 1k and 1.3k above the second highest in their roles for rDPS not because they're "overpowered" but because they have raid debuffs instead of raid buffs, the effects are essentially tripled. If there were other jobs that inflicted a debuff on the enemy instead of buffing the party (e.g. if Arcane Circle debuffed the enemy and the Reaper got boosts to Harvest Moon's potency dependent on how many players hit the debuffed target, or if Bard's songs counted as aoe debuffs instead of aoe buff effects, this would also allow 2 bards in the same team to combine their songs), they would similarly have an increase to their rDPS here.

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Originally Posted by LibitIncarne

Sort by aDPS instead of rDPS. Scholar and NIN are 1k and 1.3k above the second highest in their roles for rDPS not because they're "overpowered" but because they have raid debuffs instead of raid buffs, the effects are essentially tripled. If there were other jobs that inflicted a debuff on the enemy instead of buffing the party (e.g. if Arcane Circle debuffed the enemy and the Reaper got boosts to Harvest Moon's potency dependent on how many players hit the debuffed target, or if Bard's songs counted as aoe debuffs instead of aoe buff effects, this would also allow 2 bards in the same team to combine their songs), they would similarly have an increase to their rDPS here.

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Now let me pre-face, the notion of nerfing Ninja and and Scholar was purely facetious, so I'll start with that. I do not think they need to be nerfed, but the notion again was the point of data is just being looked at and ignored. That could be a method to increase their viability towards being larger damage jobs. Granted I think it would make for some interesting problems in down-time between the boss being able to be target while buff was in play. Though I doubt most parties would do a double of any job just to the loss of Limit Break. Though it does make for an interesting view on the data to look over, but still holds the tune of PCT is not as vastly overpowered as it is being sold on.

The point was however to point out how ridiculous the notion of "nerf this job because of 1 encounter saying thing is overpowered" cause that is the same argument being had about FRU and PCT. Anywhere else it does not apply, same with Ninja and Chaotic Raid. I would feel the argument would be valid if that gap existed regardless of what content it was in, if PCT had a guaranteed lead in savage, ex, chaotic, and ultimate then it would be something of concern. Same with if any other job had that crown to the point of invalidating the benefit of another job in an encounter. Getting too hung up on what the top 1% are doing, when in reality the overwhelming majority will not produce that same result is what is causing this hair pulling.

So, no nerfs. Relax. Stop overthinking it and propagating the PF meta lockouts is my big point to throw at people here.

SE has backed themselves into a corner with job balance. Since the time investment to level a job is so small (in relation to other MMOs), it isn't like it is hard for players to just jump on the PCT bandwagon. In other games, as jobs/classes became more powerful (or got nerfed), the time investment for players to level another job/class and gear it up was so great. It was possible that by the time a player had that OP job ready to use, the game would be patched to bring it back in-line.

That doesn't exist in FFXIV. Sure, to get a job to be BiS takes some time, but any job can be i720 immediately - which for PCT, is probably "good enough" while you finish gearing it up.

My wife just switched from SMN to PCT since it is so much stronger and all she needed was the weapon. And the difference is huge. The only option SE really has is to either bring other jobs up to PCT or leave it be.

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Originally Posted by dspguy

SE has backed themselves into a corner with job balance. Since the time investment to level a job is so small (in relation to other MMOs), it isn't like it is hard for players to just jump on the PCT bandwagon. In other games, as jobs/classes became more powerful (or got nerfed), the time investment for players to level another job/class and gear it up was so great. It was possible that by the time a player had that OP job ready to use, the game would be patched to bring it back in-line.

That doesn't exist in FFXIV. Sure, to get a job to be BiS takes some time, but any job can be i720 immediately - which for PCT, is probably "good enough" while you finish gearing it up.

My wife just switched from SMN to PCT since it is so much stronger and all she needed was the weapon. And the difference is huge. The only option SE really has is to either bring other jobs up to PCT or leave it be.

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SMN by far is the worst comparison job to put against PCT or BLM. It is the bottom of the pact. Of course it is going to be a sizable change. Switching to BLM would of generated the same results. It is what it is, Summoner is in the worst spot it has been in for a while. Even Red Mage would do better, so again putting the bottom of the rung job against the two top competing is not a good enough stance to stand on for "PCT needs a nerf" unless you are going to call for BLM to be nerfed as well.

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Originally Posted by TheDustyOne

This; power creep is a very real thing in this game and Squares insistence of buffing jobs to the level of the strongest job rather than balancing to a baseline that they've designed fights for is a big problem.

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the problem is the job are nerfed/buffed according to harder fight when in reality the best would be the content being adapted around a job

so uhhhh, 4 picto FRU just happened https://x.com/takomi_82_96/status/1872903535735828526

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Originally Posted by LibitIncarne

so uhhhh, 4 picto FRU just happened https://x.com/takomi_82_96/status/1872903535735828526

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So the thing they tried to do with the limit break didn't even matter lol.

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Originally Posted by Infindox

So the thing they tried to do with the limit break didn't even matter lol.

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because Pandora's Box doesn't require a Tank LB to survive, and even if it did then it's at the final phase and you have enough time to rig the low hp heal/survive with barely any hp mitigation LB gains for that

This is not a competitive game and no one in the gaming world cares about clears in FF14, so why would you?

How about they first kill the plugins so people can't do Ultimates with a one-button-rotation and screen overlays?

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Originally Posted by LibitIncarne

so uhhhh, 4 picto FRU just happened https://x.com/takomi_82_96/status/1872903535735828526

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was this any faster compared to your standard run or something?

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Originally Posted by CVXIV

was this any faster compared to your standard run or something?

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Due to the phases ending at the cast of a skill that's an enrage unless you get to below 10% HP, no.
But this means that 4 Pictomancers are able to deal enough damage despite:

- Having 0 passive LB gain (And no Melee LB)
- Only having 3% VIT/[Main Stat] party bonus instead of the usual 5% that full parties will give you if you have a melee and a physranged
- Their buffs not stacking in the way that, for example, Dragoon, Monk, and Bard's would
- Not having stackable mitigants (No Feint, no party mit from physranged, etc)

This is on-par with the 0 healer TOP clear in its disregard for basic game design that the developers are showing.

The "no natural LB gain if there are duplicate jobs" mechanic that was added to Ultimates to prevent people from doing THIS EXACT THING turned out to be completely pointless. People have already done duplicate job clears of UWU after the change, but "that's uwu lol". No, it's FRU and this just shows how broken PCT is in any fight with downtime that you don't need to move in.

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Originally Posted by CVXIV

was this any faster compared to your standard run or something?

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It's mostly just comical that it's possible. 7.1 added an LB generation penalty to ultimates if you stack a single class specifically to try and prevent things like that, and yet it's still possible.

I can see it now...

"ATTENTION FFXIV PLAYERS.

We have heard you concerns regarding the current state of job balance, we are aware that some jobs may be preforming better than intended.

Thus, coming in 7.5, We have plans to buff other jobs to the higher preforming jobs level. Please look forward to it."

Realistically I was content if their party buff got changed to a selfish buff but honestly I think that they're just gonna have to cut the potencies. This job just has everything. It has good mobility (like who seriously thought that smudge, needed such a low CD AND free Sprint?), Mitigation, and Party Buffs. If they want this job to contend with the top dogs like SAM and BLM it shouldn't offer support options.

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Originally Posted by St0rmy

I can see it now...

"ATTENTION FFXIV PLAYERS.

We have heard you concerns regarding the current state of job balance, we are aware that some jobs may be preforming better than intended.

Thus, coming in 7.5, We have plans to buff other jobs to the higher preforming jobs level. Please look forward to it."

Realistically I was content if their party buff got changed to a selfish buff but honestly I think that they're just gonna have to cut the potencies. This job just has everything. It has good mobility (like who seriously thought that smudge, needed such a low CD AND free Sprint?), Mitigation, and Party Buffs. If they want this job to contend with the top dogs like SAM and BLM it shouldn't offer support options.

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SAM isn't top dog though? Its been towards bottom of all the jobs as of late. That is why DRG/MNK has been the top melee DPS for most the tier with a few trades with VPR, Cause again. rDPS matters more than how much non-buff damage you provide to the group. So I do hope you are joking about SAM being top dog, as it is not even in top 5 of all the jobs, least of all I can understand poking at competing with VPR/BLM, which is what is happening as intended.

It is how it is designed, which is the ironic point cause if you remove the raid utility it will not perform to their designed intention is compete. So unless you want to see it get even higher potency skills? Cause that is what would happen, they would instead buff its potency to compete, as right now without that potency buff with removed utility, PCT would be doing in realm of SMN/RDM making it pointless to bring compared to something that can rez.

I really wish they just nerfed Picots crazy potencies. I'm literally not even seeing gaols on PA in TEA even with 2-3 deaths because Pictomancer damage is just way too high, Alexander just dies in the middle of almighty judgment. I can only imagine how abysmally easy the dps checks are in UCOB and UWU nowdays when you have Pictomancer and Sumonner in your parties. The power creep really set itself in, and it will only get worse for the older ultimates. It'll also be straight up bad for the game if they actually buffed every single dps to compensate for Pictos dmg.

They really need to stop with this job homogenization and the blatant attempts to make the game even more braindead.

It's funny that Yoshida and Devs said they wanted to make Dawntrail more harder than Endwalker, but now just 1 job is making things easier than before. Savage was made easier as they tuned savage to 7.0 damage numbers, but PCT was overtuned, but rather than bring that 1 job back in line after they buffed it at launch compared to how it was during the media tour and forgot to recalculate the fights themselves, savage became easier xD

At this point is clear Dawntrail and its design for boss fights cannot be balanced due to PCT. So remove the Job until 8.0 when all others gets their so-called uniqueness reworks xD

They can now just as well remove Limit Break as a feature as people do not care about losing their gauge generation.

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Originally Posted by Altera

It's funny that Yoshida and Devs said they wanted to make Dawntrail more harder than Endwalker, but now just 1 job is making things easier than before. Savage was made easier as they tuned savage to 7.0 damage numbers, but PCT was overtuned, but rather than bring that 1 job back in line after they buffed it at launch compared to how it was during the media tour and forgot to recalculate the fights themselves, savage became easier xD

At this point is clear Dawntrail and its design for boss fights cannot be balanced due to PCT. So remove the Job until 8.0 when all others gets their so-called uniqueness reworks xD

They can now just as well remove Limit Break as a feature as people do not care about losing their gauge generation.

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They specifically changed the media tour potencies because the job was basically non functioning in the media tour

Unless you consider spamming rainbow drip in AOE and never pressing hammer or starry below 92 as “functioning”

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Unless you consider spamming rainbow drip in AOE and never pressing hammer or starry below 92 as “functioning”

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Perfect Balance is a potency loss below level 60 now so

remember summoner in 5.1

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Originally Posted by Tint

Just read what he wrote, especially the second paragraph. By not nerfing Picto they are actually making the game worse already.

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He means to stop changing things. Every change brings more complaints. If they either leave it alone or revert it back to 2.0, the game will be better.

The won't nerf Picto. Why? Because it's so damn boring to play. No one would play it if the job wasn't so over tuned, and they can't have their brand new flagship job dropped by most of the players not even a year into the new expansion.

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

The won't nerf Picto. Why? Because it's so damn boring to play. No one would play it if the job wasn't so over tuned, and they can't have their brand new flagship job dropped by most of the players not even a year into the new expansion.

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Well this is the first time I’ve heard someone call PCT boring

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Well this is the first time I’ve heard someone call PCT boring

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it's honestly really boring, I can't get into it. I fall asleep while playing it. I genuinely have more fun playing a Healer, at least you have some form of DoT to manage there. The class has so little buttons, anytime I play it. I am continuously thinking I'm missing something and doing something wrong with how little I'm pressing but...nope...I'm not.

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Originally Posted by St0rmy

it's honestly really boring, I can't get into it. I fall asleep while playing it. I genuinely have more fun playing a Healer, at least you have some form of DoT to manage there. The class has so little buttons, anytime I play it. I am continuously thinking I'm missing something and doing something wrong with how little I'm pressing but...nope...I'm not.

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Please tell me this is sarcasm

DOT management on a healer, now I’ve heard it all

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Please tell me this is sarcasm

DOT management on a healer, now I’ve heard it all

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It's not, I genuinely have more fun keeping Dia on the boss than I do playing PCT.

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Originally Posted by St0rmy

It's not, I genuinely have more fun keeping Dia on the boss than I do playing PCT.

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I mean how? Like genuinely? You press dia once every 30 seconds and that’s it. Control of your motif CD’s is exactly the same except you have 3 different motifs on different CD’s basically the equivalent of having 3 DOT’s

If you don’t like how stacked charges creates flexibility in controlling CD’s then rest assured starry muse is on a rigid CD

They can't nerf Picto, the one guy on the job design team whose favourite job it is would be upset.

Let's buff every job in the game (including Picto) and further worsen the entire game's power creep instead.