They should put actual MMO players on the development team.

Just a quick note for people: If you continue to carry on the spelling wars the thread will.

1. Obviously be locked as soon as a moderator gets his hands on this thread.
2. All posters are liable to get slammed by the moderator backlash (I've felt the collatoral damage a few times before).


But seriously on the point of the subject I still don't see how playing a game is equal to designing a game. It's like saying a person who went to school for years to do a specific job is useless because he hasn't actually done it in his spare time. I bet a good chunk of video game makers don't play video games a whole lot themselves.

Coders
Artists
Designers
Composers

Don't really need much in the way of experience to create great video game assets. Sure experience using the object you live to create can help give perspective but in some cases that same perspective can be as harmfull to design as it can be helpfull.

lol fuckin OP, now this is entertainment!

OP never said that they should put gamers in charge of designing the game lol. He said the dev team should put them on salary so they can give their advice about new content in the works to help make it better, or something along those lines.

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Originally Posted by Tabula

OP never said that they should put gamers in charge of designing the game lol. He said the dev team should put them on salary so they can give their advice about new content in the works to help make it better, or something along those lines.

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That is what QA team are for.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

That is what QA team are for.

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You mean the Community Reps? Having the Community Reps relay what information they see fit from the forums, which is an unreliable source anyway, to the developers isn't quite the same as having people with a strong sense of what a MMO should be like from a gamer's perspective on staff, but what ever I don't have time to get involved in this with all the trolls in here.

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Originally Posted by Tabula

You mean the Community Reps? Having the Community Reps relay what information they see fit from the forums, which is an unreliable source anyway, to the developers isn't quite the same as having people with a strong sense of what a MMO should be like from a gamer's perspective on staff, but what ever I don't have time to get involved in this with all the trolls in here.

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Quality Assurance team.. the one that tests contents, the one that fight Garuda over and over again and readjust the balance accordingly... The one that actually plays the game repeatedly for the sake of us so we don't bitch when something is broke. Of course i am the troll and you are the starter one.

What good is QA team if they're used to QAing for single player games? Even a more popular games quality assurance team would benefit from having people on their team that have done nothing the last 10+ years but play MMOs.

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Originally Posted by Mijin

What good is QA team if they're used to QAing for single player games?

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Look at those massive unfounded assumptions people.

It is clear that a large majority of the people here have never worked in a Dev/Test environment.

Developers are coders. The take the blue prints that is laid out by the leadership (Yoshi, and above) and are given individual sections to work on.
- Network function
- AI
- Collision
- Engine
- etc

Graphics designers will work on the graphics and animations (individual groups will work on different set of graphics)
- Towns
- Dark Mobs
- Players
- Etc.

After all of those are are put together it is all pulled together into a "Build". Which if passes a sanity check is passed to test (also known as QA (Quality Assurance). This team will take various segments (and may even be linked to the teams of the devs that created the components putting their testing on the individual assigned components

Dev,Design, and Test do not play or use the game as a whole in making it.

Then it goes to the play testers who look for bugs, or functionality of the area/section of the game they are required to repeatedly test (levels, collision, effects, etc)

After all this the bugs are gathered and determined what is fixed, what is not (postponed, won't fix, by design, etc)

After all of the cuts and fixes and the product has met the bar for GA (general audience, or beta (public/closed)). Then it is reviewed by the management that set the directives on how the game is designed. If that clears then the product it put out for public beta or released.

That is about the extent of it. The amount of time playing an MMO or not would make no difference.
An opinion panel is typically part of the final review before release (although now a days they just use Beta for that).

Just my observations.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Look at those massive unfounded assumptions people.

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I've already cited my evidence behind this is here like two or three times.
The team members were forced to play MMOs because they had no knowledge of them. If you can prove that this is untrue in anyway, I'll accept it. However, I'll still disagree and say that the game would be better if new concepts where run by a team of advanced players first.

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Originally Posted by Mijin

However, I'll still disagree

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So you don't think the QA team who tests everything we do somehow has never had a single foot in the MMO genre? You know because SE has MULTIPLE MMO's under it's belt it must never hire people to test their MMO's. It's not like FFXI was tightly balanced for several years or anything either.

Your right we must somehow take a small quip from Yoshida as to somehow mean everyone on his team is utterly useless and unaware of what a MMO even is.

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and some actions taken included asking development staff not clear of MMO gaming to play them.

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I assume this is what your pointing at. The part where he sais he asked team members who are not clear on MMO concepts, where in this does it state a majority of any percentage of the team?

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Originally Posted by cloverkitty

That is about the extent of it. The amount of time playing an MMO or not would make no difference.
An opinion panel is typically part of the final review before release (although now a days they just use Beta for that).

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Thanks for sharing. That was insightful and I did take some info from that. Opinion panels according to what you said are no longer used, and most new content being released doesn't receive a beta. However WoW does do a beta out for every patch, and now that I think about it I bet that's why.

I think the amount of time or the amount of time doing anything in life does make you more informed. I'm having a hard time having people understand while I believe in this concept so I'll try another metaphor.

Say for example you work at a company that makes fishing tackle. You love your job because your favorite hobby is fishing. Your boss, who doesn't fish, tells you about a new trout lure that will be painted red. You ask him why? He explains to you, "Well red lures sell the best that's why." You the explain to your boss that in all of your time fishing blue lures have always worked the best for trout. You boss agrees to go with some blue lures and some red lures. In the end the blue lures out sell the red ones.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

So you don't think the QA team who tests everything we do somehow has never had a single foot in the MMO genre? You know because SE has MULTIPLE MMO's under it's belt it must never hire people to test their MMO's. It's not like FFXI was tightly balanced for several years or anything either.

Your right we must somehow take a small quip from Yoshida as to somehow mean everyone on his team is utterly useless and unaware of what a MMO even is.



I assume this is what your pointing at. The part where he sais he asked team members who are not clear on MMO concepts, where in this does it state a majority of any percentage of the team?

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According to cloverkitty, whos obviously informed on the subject.

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Then it goes to the play testers who look for bugs, or functionality of the area/section of the game they are required to repeatedly test (levels, collision, effects, etc)

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They don't test if the game will be enjoyable or profitable. Further confirmation on the subject can be obtained via google or here.

The point of this entire forum is to get feedback from the players that is playing this game. Then the dev team take our feedback and incorporate them into the game.

This way its like having thousands of mmo players on the dev team

/end thread

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Originally Posted by Andrien

The point of this entire forum is to get feedback from the players that is playing this game. Then the dev team take our feedback and incorporate them into the game.

This way its like having thousands of mmo players on the dev team

/end thread

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So you think this forum represents the whole player base? I don't, most players don't use these forums. I don't know what the actual percent is but I'm guessing it's very low. Not to mention there are several people who post on here every day, and anytime a suggestion thread pops up they troll the shit out of it. Not to mention the mini-trolls who just like to hop on the band wagon of what ever the big trolls are after.

It's not really their fault though... Where there are forums there will be trolls. People use the many forums of the internet to verbally lash out at people to compensate for their own inadequacies. Most people grow out of that stage though. Other games, like Diablo III for example are forced to heavily moderate their forums to such a massive extent that they're nearly unusable. So it's either one extreme or another I guess.

Besides even if things were perfect on the forums, how much information gets filtered through the English speaking Community Reps to the people in charge in Japan. I bet it isn't much.

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Originally Posted by Mijin

Say for example you work at a company that makes fishing tackle. You love your job because your favorite hobby is fishing. Your boss, who doesn't fish, tells you about a new trout lure that will be painted red. You ask him why? He explains to you, "Well red lures sell the best that's why." You the explain to your boss that in all of your time fishing blue lures have always worked the best for trout. You boss agrees to go with some blue lures and some red lures. In the end the blue lures out sell the red ones.

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wait, wait, wait. Your boss comes up to you and says trout lures will only be painted red from now on because "the red ones sell better" most likely because he actually has data and sales records to back this up. but because you say blues ones work better basing it purely off the anecdotal evidence of you own fishing trips, your boss will for some asinine reason ignore sales records and trending data, change company policy, and some how the buying habits of consumers will change? That makes literally no sense what so ever.

you really don't think your analogies through at all. Your "experiance" as a fisher in that analogy is of little to no use to your boss. Regardless of the success you have had with blue ones, if the public at large is of the opinion that red ones are better (hence the reason your boss wants to make only red ones) then it is in your boss's and your own best interest to make red ones.

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

wait, wait, wait. Your boss comes up to you and says trout lures will only be painted red from now on because "the red ones sell better" most likely because he actually has data and sales records to back this up. but because you say blues ones work better basing it purely off the anecdotal evidence of you own fishing trips, your boss will for some asinine reason ignore sales records and trending data, change company policy, and some how the buying habits of consumers will change? That makes literally no sense what so ever.

you really don't think your analogies through at all. Your "experiance" as a fisher in that analogy is of little to no use to your boss. Regardless of the success you have had with blue ones, if the public at large is of the opinion that red ones are better (hence the reason your boss wants to make only red ones) then it is in your boss's and your own best interest to make red ones.

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While you're obviously over analyzing that for the sake of argument, I'll play along:

You work as a marketing consultant for a large fishing tackle manufacture. You love your job because your favorite hobby happens to be fishing. You're boss comes up to you one day and says, "Well, we've decided to sell a new lure for trout, I was thinking about painting it red because red bass lures have the highest sales." You explain to you're boss that while red bass lures are favored among fishermen for bass, experienced fishermen actually prefer to use blue lures for trout. You can attest to this because you're an experienced fisher yourself, otherwise you wouldn't have known. Your boss says, "Okay let me check with the marketing people and I'll get back to you." The next day your boss comes up to you and agrees to go with the blue trout lures, because he obviously has no knowledge of fishing, he just knows how to make lures. The blue trout lures turn out to sell much better, and everyone lives happily ever after.

Hopefully that one isn't as confusing for you, I tried not to leave any details to the imagination. Just in case:
Bass Lure = Single player games
Trout Lure = MMORPGs
Red/blue = content
The experienced marketing consultant = who needs to be added to the picture

I hope this helps you understand my metaphor (which is more like a short story now).

Knowing what customers want is just as important if a more important than sales data when it comes to making profit.

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Originally Posted by Mijin

While you're obviously over analyzing that for the sake of argument, I'll play along:

You work as a sales consultant(oh no you don't! I saw your edit this was your original job title in the analogy) for a large fishing tackle manufacture. You love your job because your favorite hobby happens to be fishing. You're boss comes up to you one say and says, "Well we've decided to sell a new lure for trout, I was thinking about painting it red because red bass lures have the highest sales." You explain to you're boss that while red bass lures are favored among fishermen for bass, experienced fishermen actually prefer to use blue lures for trout. You can attest to this because you yourself, are an experienced fisher otherwise you wouldn't have known. Your boss says, "Okay let me check with the marketing people and I'll get back to you." The next day your boss comes up to you and agrees to go with the blue trout lures, because he obviously has no knowledge of fishing, he just knows how to make lures. The blue trout lures turn out to sell much better, and everyone lives happily ever after.

Hopefully that one isn't as confusing for you, I tried not to leave any details to the imagination. Just in case:
Bass Lure = Single player games
Trout Lure = MMORPGs
Red/blue = content
I hope this helps.

Knowing what customers want is just as important if a more important than sales data when it comes to making profit.

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okay... yet again, if your marketing people already had this information that Bass lures are good in red and trout lures sell well in blue... THEN YOUR BOSS WOULD ALREADY KNOW THAT DUMMY! Because if you were doing your damn job as a sales consultant, you would have told your boss the sales figures for fishing lures, and when the new lures came out the new trout lure would be blue. because sales figures and data would have already told the boss that blue trout lures sell better, and this would have gotten funneled down to the development guys, who would paint it blue. You would never have been in that process, neither would the marketing guys. Your "knowledge of fishing" is absolutely useless, you don't become a manager, CEO, or Director by being pig ignorant of your your own industry.

Further, in your analogy, your boss didn't go with blue because "he has no knowledge of fishing and has bowed to your superior intellect and buisness accumen" It's because he verified that blue lures sell better by going back to actual market research. If market research hadn't coincedentaly backed you up, he would still have had to rely on only YOUR WORD that blue is better, and that is no way to make a buisness plan

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

okay... yet again, if your marketing people already had this information that Bass lures are good in red and trout lures sell well in blue... THEN YOUR BOSS WOULD ALREADY KNOW THAT DUMMY! Because if you were doing your damn job as a sales consultant, you would have told your boss the sales figures for fishing lures, and when the new lures came out the new trout lure would be blue. because sales figures and data would have already told the boss that blue trout lures sell better, and this would have gotten funneled down to the development guys, who would paint it blue. You would never have been in that process, neither would the marketing guys. Your "knowledge of fishing" is absolutely useless, you don't become a manager, CEO, or Director by being pig ignorant of your your own industry.

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Lol well then I guess the fundamental disagreement we're having is that I do consider the people in charge to be ignorant in comparison to it's competitors. All of their experience is with single player games, which is fine but they need to take customer feedback into much more careful consideration than its competitors do, and their competitors already take it pretty damn serious.

You're presenting your argument as that there is magical sales data that covers every aspect of designing new content but there isn't. There is for some things sure.... like recently Yoshida mentioned in an interview that they would probably be adding a underwater level before a sky level because sales data supports it. Even though sky first would have been his personal preference. When you're trying to be innovative there is no sales data... Like the idea not to make an auction house for example... It seems like they fall short on common sense when there is no data to guide the way for them. Not to mention that no matter what all of data for other games in the world supports, some of it just wont apply to this game because the games audience is different. People that play WoW don't want to play FFXIV... they never will unless we turn it into a wow clone, and in doing so they'll loose all of their current audience because the current audience doesn't want to play wow... WoW is for the instant gratification type people. FFXIV is for effort rewards types.

What the companies trying to do from what I've read about 2.0 is to copy what works for WoW because it sells better. This isn't going to work for the same exact reason that WoW clones have never worked in the past, WoW players will just play WoW... Especially considering they're getting an expansion around the same time we get 2.0

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Originally Posted by Mijin

Lol well then I guess the fundamental disagreement we're having is that I do consider the people in charge to be ignorant in comparison to it's competitors. All of their experience is with single player games, which is fine but they need to take customer feedback into much more careful consideration than its competitors do, and their competitors already take it pretty damn serious.

You're presenting your argument as that there is magical sales data that covers every aspect of designing new content but there isn't. There is for some things sure.... like recently Yoshida mentioned in an interview that they would probably be adding a underwater level before a sky level because sales data supports it even though it wasn't his personal preference. When you're trying to be innovative there is no sales data... Like the idea not to make an auction house for example... It seems like they fall short on common sense when there is no data to guide the way for them. Not to mention that no matter what all of data for other games in the world supports, some of it just wont apply to this game because the games audience is different. People that play WoW don't want to play FFXIV... they never will unless we turn it into a wow clone, and in doing so they'll loose all of their current audience because the current audience doesn't want to play wow... WoW is for the instant gratification type people. FFXIV is for effort rewards types.

What the companies trying to do from what I've read about 2.0 is look at all sales data of WoW, and try to follow in their footsteps. This isn't going to work for the same exact reason that WoW clones have never worked in the past, WoW players will just play WoW... Especially considering they're getting an expansion around the same time we get 2.0

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I'm not basing my argument on sales data at all, I'm poking holes in your terrible analogy based on sales data.

You can think people in charge are ignorant til the cows come home. That doesn't change the fact that playesr are considerably more ignorant. The trouble with your argument that SE should "employ 'Professional' gamers to play the game to tell them how to improve it" is that all their information would be the product of those handful of players' personal biases and desires. I'd rather trust market research and the few requests and bits of information that get back to SE from the forums, over a handful of sweaty nerds that just get to hand over a wish list and have a globally distributed game tailored to their own venal wants.


Basically... I'm beginning to think this thread was just a failed attempt to apply for a job that you want SE to make for you... Am I too far off the mark?


also you keep saying all of SE's experience is in Single Player games... Last I checked they've been running a moderately successful MMO for 10 years now, just a little under half of the Final Fantasy franchises life span. and launched several years before WoW, while I'm definately not XI's biggest fan, I do have to say that I think I'm safe in saying they have the gist of what they're doing.

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I'm not basing my argument on sales data at all, I'm poking holes in your terrible analogy based on sales data.

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Well you didn't really poke any holes in my argument the way I see it you just kept going "and then, and then, and then."

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You can think people in charge are ignorant til the cows come home. That doesn't change the fact that playesr are considerably more ignorant.

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Not so, the people in charge make single player games. At least the players play MMOrpgs.

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The trouble with your argument that SE should "employ 'Professional' gamers to play the game to tell them how to improve it" is that all their information would be the product of those handful of players' personal biases and desires. I'd rather trust market research and the few requests and bits of information that get back to SE from the forums, over a handful of sweaty nerds that just get to hand over a wish list and have a globally distributed game tailored to their own venal wants.

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Well I can't really tell if you're taking what I said out of context on purpose or just have that hard of a time understanding.
I said when a new idea comes down the pipeline they should check with a group of consultants who actually play the game to see if there is anyway to improve on it. I said nothing even remotely close to what you're suggesting.

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Basically... I'm beginning to think this thread was just a failed attempt to apply for a job that you want SE to make for you... Am I too far off the mark?

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Don't patronize me. First of it should be blatantly obvious that isn't the case in lieu of the fact I was talking about this hypothetical panel of players in a very derogatory fashion. I would never be naive enough to believe that would be a way to get a job or naive enough to even believe that any information on this forum gets forwarded to them for that matter.
Also I don't speak a word of Japanese which I think would fundamental for the proposed task... Not to mention I already have a job, and commitments where I live and wouldn't relocate unless I absolutely had to do so. Unless ignorant enough to believe that was really mt goal, I beginning to become positive what you're doing is a failed attempt at trolling? I wont bother to ask how close to the mark I am because I've already made up my mind.

Every time you post it gets dryer and dryer though. I've seen my sisters 14 year old kid troll harder, literally.

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Originally Posted by Mijin

They don't test if the game will be enjoyable or profitable. Further confirmation on the subject can be obtained via google or here.

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No, QA will not test things to see if they are fun, but there are generally QA in-house that work closely to the developers.

Depending on the company, you'll likely have a design department that implements a lot of the assets and tries to build an experience for the end user. Other places you'll have a gameplay programmer. I'll stick with the term designer, because it's easier to type.

The designer will be focused on making the content FUN. They will iterate over the content, tweaking this and changing that, to make the content as fun as they can. The department will usually play test content and give feedback to each other, as well as other departments chiming in and giving feedback or direction (usually from production). Sometimes, even QA are asked for their opinions, as they see a lot of the game and are experienced in playing through it.

Development isn't one guy, locked in a room, making his portion of the game without any other eyes on it. It is a collaborative effort among many people. And even if you did have a few extra people playing through it, that isn't going to change a whole lot.

We can then take into account the fact that "fun" is subjective. You'll never please everyone.

Just like you had to do in the PLD/DRG thread, I'd highly suggest taking the word of those who know more about the subject than yourself and accept that this is not a good idea, and does nothing to help.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

So you don't think the QA team who tests everything we do somehow has never had a single foot in the MMO genre? You know because SE has MULTIPLE MMO's under it's belt it must never hire people to test their MMO's. It's not like FFXI was tightly balanced for several years or anything either.

Your right we must somehow take a small quip from Yoshida as to somehow mean everyone on his team is utterly useless and unaware of what a MMO even is.



I assume this is what your pointing at. The part where he sais he asked team members who are not clear on MMO concepts, where in this does it state a majority of any percentage of the team?

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Also, this. I brought it up a few pages ago, but it was likely ignored/missed. I think a large part of this stems from the fact that you simply misunderstood the statement given in the interview and over-exaggerated the situation.

And keeping in line with the sub-topic of this thread, you misspelled, "says".

keeping wit teh submarine topik. I dun cayer.

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Just like you had to do in the PLD/DRG thread, I'd highly suggest taking the word of those who know more about the subject than yourself and accept that this is not a good idea, and does nothing to help.

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I have yet to see anyone who has proven that this is a bad idea, or anyone who seems more informed on the subject than me. Contrary to a lot of the silly stuff that's being mentioned here, I actually spent a lot of time thinking about it. If not this than something needs to be done to improve player feedback. Wow does beta tests every content update... that would cost more than is in this games budget right now to implement. IF this game does nothing to improve its customer feedback it will be left behind. If you have any better ideas I'm all ears. If your just going to keep telling me there is no problem I'm not interested.

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Well you didn't really poke any holes in my argument the way I see it you just kept going "and then, and then, and then."

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Well, if you're determined to not understand how buisnesses work than I guess I can't drill it into your head

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Well I can't really tell if you're taking what I said out of context on purpose or just have that hard of a time understanding.
I said when a new idea comes down the pipeline they should check with a group of consultants who actually play the game to see if there is anyway to improve on it. I said nothing even remotely close to what you're suggesting.

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If they are not going to act on their "suggestions for improvement" then why the hell employ them at all... I don't think you even know what you want anymore. Again, these "consultants" could only give subjective, biased information that would be of little to no use.


sorry to break it to you, but no one is trolling here, I was only hazarding a guess as to why someone would suggest that a game company should employ "professional" gamers (that still makes me laugh) when their internal testing and QA teams already do the job that these "consultants" would presumably do.

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Originally Posted by Mijin

Contrary to a lot of the silly stuff that's being mentioned here, I actually spent a lot of time thinking about it.

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Explain, in detail, how this would work. We'll start there. Your OP describes that you think people who have played MMOs for a long time should give feedback, but that's really the extent of the idea that I've seen.

EDIT: and more informed on what subject than you?

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Originally Posted by Alderton

Also, this. I brought it up a few pages ago, but it was likely ignored/missed. I think a large part of this stems from the fact that you simply misunderstood the statement given in the interview and over-exaggerated the situation.

And keeping in line with the sub-topic of this thread, you misspelled, "says".

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I had to do some digging for this one but here it is:

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Originally Posted by Alderton

Whom do you think makes Barbie games? It isn't young girls, even though they play them the most.

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At first I thought I had something with the hyphen you put in over-exaggerated, but I googled it to double check and I guess it isn't correct. I never knew.

You can easily win if you try hard enough now, I stopped caring when I thought all of you guys had gone to bed. I was tired myself so I figured by bother. Guess I gave up on the game too soon.

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

Well, if you're determined to not understand how buisnesses work than I guess I can't drill it into your head

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I don't consider you an expert. You aren't in the position to teach me anything. You're just some angry woman(presumably) on the internet. I don't even know if you're an adult. It's not like anything you've said has been constructive, everything you've posted to me has been facetious, and used to attack me passive-aggressively. Why would I take anything you say seriously?

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

If they are not going to act on their "suggestions for improvement" then why the hell employ them at all... I don't think you even know what you want anymore. Again, these "consultants" could only give subjective, biased information that would be of little to no use.

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No. You give subjective, and biased information that is of no use... :D

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

sorry to break it to you, but no one is trolling here, I was only hazarding a guess as to why someone would suggest that a game company should employ "professional" gamers (that still makes me laugh) when their internal testing and QA teams already do the job that these "consultants" would presumably do.

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Well I'm sorry to also be the bearer of bad news, but you know how you're intentionally posting inflammatory remarks to bait me into responding so you can do it some more? That be Trollin'

It's also been mentioned... oh... idk... like 50 times now that the QA team has nothing to to with making sure the game is enjoyable and will sell well... they test for bugs etc.

I'm glad that the term "Professional Gamer" brought you a smile. It saddens me that I cannot take credit for the phrase however. At least you had a laugh, I find every one of your posts to be humorous, I would feel guilty if I didn't give a little something back.

I see your point but... developers have many tasks other then sitting at a desk and say "ok, let's put in game this and this". They review costs, they guide teams, and notherless they need advanced skill in programming, all things a random MMO player don't have. Leave feedback to the players, developing a game isn't part of the fun

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Originally Posted by yukikaze_yanagi

advanced skill in programming, all things a random MMO player don't have.

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You would be surprised, if you would know how many skilled programmers are actually playing MMO's.

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Originally Posted by Alderton

Explain, in detail, how this would work. We'll start there. Your OP describes that you think people who have played MMOs for a long time should give feedback, but that's really the extent of the idea that I've seen.

EDIT: and more informed on what subject than you?

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Did you read the OP after I retyped the whole thing like an hour ago?

And I was referring to the subject of the direction of creative development for MMORPGs, what this whole thread is about pretty much... besides spelling of course. I'm not claiming to be an expert on the subject, but I think my concept was a pretty common sense approach.

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Originally Posted by yukikaze_yanagi

I see your point but... developers have many tasks other then sitting at a desk and say "ok, let's put in game this and this". They review costs, they guide teams, and notherless they need advanced skill in programming, all things a random MMO player don't have. Leave feedback to the players, developing a game isn't part of the fun

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I'm not saying that this hypothetical panel of players should make the game. I'm just saying this:

1: Take career MMO player who learned how to speak Japanese from poorly dubbbed anime out of basement.
2: Put career MMO player in office in Japan.
2.5: Pay carrer MMO player ¥20 and 5 bowls a rice a week to play a MMO all day.
3: Ask career MMO player for feedback on new content before it's released.
4: ???
5: Profit!

The only other option I can see is to open up beta servers for testing on every update before it goes out, and this wont help much with the concept creation aspect of the content...

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Originally Posted by Nero

You would be surprised, if you would know how many skilled programmers are actually playing MMO's.

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Thank you master of oblius. I'm a programmer myself, don't mean i can step in a SE office and say "i'm a dedicated mmo player since 10 years, from now i'm your boss" and expecting good results. A leader need more qualities other than programming skill, as i already stated

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mijin

I'm not saying that this hypothetical panel of players should make the game. I'm just saying this:

1: Take career MMO player who learned how to speak Japanese from poorly dubbbed anime out of basement.
2: Put career MMO player in office in Japan.
2.5: Pay carrer MMO player ¥20 and 5 bowls a rice a week to play a MMO all day.
3: Ask career MMO player for feedback on new content before it's released.
4: ???
5: Profit!

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.....well, shit. This is actually what every gaming society do with their QA, both internal and external. Both of this also provide feedbacks, and they are both workers and dedicated players. What's the news in this ?

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Originally Posted by yukikaze_yanagi

Thank you master of oblius.

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Your welcome.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yukikaze_yanagi

I'm a programmer myself, don't mean i can step in a SE office and say "i'm a dedicated mmo player since 10 years, from now i'm your boss" and expecting good results.

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Noone said that, eh?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yukikaze_yanagi

A leader need more qualities other than programming skill, as i already stated

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You said:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yukikaze_yanagi

They review costs, they guide teams, and notherless they need advanced skill in programming,

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So you are a hobby-programmer? Since the qualities you've mentioned are actually part of the study-process in certain classes of programming.

I was just pointing out that there is a good amount of programmers are actually playing MMO's, same with AD's, Seniors etc. You get offended easy, no?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yukikaze_yanagi

Thank you master of oblius. I'm a programmer myself, don't mean i can step in a SE office and say "i'm a dedicated mmo player since 10 years, from now i'm your boss" and expecting good results. A leader need more qualities other than programming skill, as i already stated



.....well, shit. This is actually what every gaming society do with their QA, both internal and external. Both of this also provide feedbacks, and they are both workers and dedicated players. What's the news in this ?

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Well I'm not an expert, but word on the streets has it that quality assurance is for testing bugs, difficulty, and stuff like that. They don't have people on the QA team to test stuff like:
"Dear QA staff, is not adding an AH to the game a really terribad idea?"

If they do have that then they need to get some more informed people on board with them, so my argument remains the same.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nero

So you are a hobby-programmer? Since the qualities you've mentioned are actually part of the study-process in certain classes of programming.

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Then again thank you, master of oblius. I don't feel the need to list every attitude a good leader need to have other the 3 i said. It's not the point.
The point is : you can't let someone camed from nowhere be a leader.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mijin

Well I'm not an expert, but word on the streets has it that quality assurance is for testing bugs, difficulty, and stuff like that. They don't have people on the QA team to test stuff like:
"Dear QA staff, is not adding an AH to the game a really terribad idea?"

If they do have that then they need to get some more informed people on board with them, so my argument remains the same.

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Oh, i'm sure they did. But if director have a certain idea and want it to be done, feedbacks have relative meaning for him

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yukikaze_yanagi

Then again thank you, master of oblius.

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Your welcome again.

http://i311.photobucket.com/albums/k...ious_Motiv.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yukikaze_yanagi

I don't feel the need to list every attitude a good leader need to have other the 3 i said. It's not the point.

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Then dont start argueing about it, if you dont feel like you have to. And if its not the point, why even start it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yukikaze_yanagi

The point is : you can't let someone camed from nowhere be a leader.

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Welcome to Business. Happens a lot.

Hey you two... Stop fighting with each other, I'm supposed to be the enemy here. I did make a suggestion and making suggestions 'round these parts is fighting words.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mijin

Hey you two... Stop fighting with each other, I'm supposed to be the enemy here. I did make a suggestion and making suggestions 'round these parts is fighting words.

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I'm not fighting. :) You are the enemy? eh, i dont think so. You have your opinion, with a good amount of good statements. Or are you a Neomarl in a Sheepskin?