Give healers dps

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Healers are already spoiled enough with how much DPS they have in this game. I have played countless other "holy trinity" sorts of games where the healers had far, far less capability to deal damage than they do in this game, and that was seen as just how those games worked.

Try being thankful for what you already have, for a change. Some of you seem like you'll never be happy until you're doing comparable damage to the actual DPS role, and that just isn't going to happen. Get real.

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And which games are you referring to?

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Originally Posted by Horack

The fact that you have to sit there and argue about whether or not healers should be contributing to the overall damage numbers proves to the simple fact that healers overall have lost their reason for existence.

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That argument has been made since ARR though. So if this sentence is true then healers never had a reason to exist since ARR.

In ARR, people observed healers just standing there not doing anything when healing wasn't needed. So they said "so contribute some damage then..."

On a personal level, as a new player in ARR, the moment I picked up Conjurer and obtained Cleric Stance, I used it as much of the time as I could because I understood exactly what it was and that my aim was to squeeze out damage as much as I could so it didn't take an eternity. And the risk-reward of it was honestly fun.

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You can ask why this is and I would point squarely at the tanks. Two of the tanks have made it so that healing is utterly unnecessary

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You see, the tanks being able to survive on their own are not why we are discussing healer damage, because as I said, healer damage has been discussed since ARR.

The tanks being able to survive on their own are why we are discussing healers not being needed in the first place ie. they are simply not being used in pre-made parties for various things.

That said, healer damage wouldn't necessarily be a thing if they had no oGCDs and incoming damage was constant. Or if every boss used Counter Stance to deal back the damage players dealt to it. But the game just rarely makes damage that intense and again, I got away with DPS on a healer even in ARR and HW (although this was just in dungeons and it wasn't as easy to get away with as it is now...).

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See the ones who are saying that esunaing a debuff/dot would be a dps loss.

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See, this is why healing has become oGCD-centric on many healer jobs. That way they can have 100% DPS uptime while still healing. So maybe the answer is to make Esuna an oGCD like Warden's Paean on BRD.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

[...]Try being thankful for what you already have, for a change. Some of you seem like you'll never be happy until you're doing comparable damage to the actual DPS role, and that just isn't going to happen. Get real.

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First: thankful? Yeah, no. The job devs deserves all the flak they get for designing a job for stupids after displaying such tone deaf stance, then get :surprisedpikachu: face when so many stupids populate the role and non-stupids got fed up either with said design or the same stupids within the role. I personally have no sympathy for them. "We have no idea what to do with SCH"---said by Yoshi-P himself. Lmao.

Second: I don't know about doing comparable amount damage --- but I do care how that damage is dished. I'll just requote myself from 2nd page here:

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I want something like this:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GWaJNLIX...jpg&name=large

I don't want garbage like this:
https://i.gyazo.com/a763e9727e5ce58e...20ccb30bf6.png

Even worse, this is true for all 4. What's the point of making 4 healers if all 4 plays all too similarly? What a waste of design space.

Enuff said.

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Originally Posted by Horack

There's no reason for healers to be concerned with dps overall. The fact that you have to sit there and argue about whether or not healers should be contributing to the overall damage numbers proves to the simple fact that healers overall have lost their reason for existence.

If there was stricter and harsher requirements overall for healers to fulfill, they wouldn't' whine about having nothing to do.

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Healers in FFXIV from the very start are meant to be contributing to damage while healing, both are equally important to the role in this game.

When people bring up the idea of giving back healers more dps buttons, we are not asking for more damage output but rather that to have something more than 1 button spam between a single DoT reapplication. Asking for stricter healing requirements overall does not mean we can't also ask for more dps options, they could coexist.

I would argue that having more dps buttons would make healers be less concerned about having to GCD heal, for example if SCH had kept their DoTs, the GCD you use for GCD heal wouldn't be as big as losing a Broil cast as part of your Broil potency would be put back into Miasma, same would apply if it were a cooldown instead for other healers.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Healers are already spoiled enough with how much DPS they have in this game. I have played countless other "holy trinity" sorts of games where the healers had far, far less capability to deal damage than they do in this game, and that was seen as just how those games worked.

Try being thankful for what you already have, for a change. Some of you seem like you'll never be happy until you're doing comparable damage to the actual DPS role, and that just isn't going to happen. Get real.

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That's funny. You must be older than I am - in which case congratulations- since that was true a very, verrrrry long time ago, but hasn't been true in "countless" holy trinity games in quite a while. You see, they actually considered support classes/jobs and wanted them to enjoy the game, since they were as important as any other jobs.

This game is actually in outlier in my own experience- it's the only game where I've been locked into one set of skills with no options at all, and expected to use the same set for no matter what content I'm in. While that works well DPS, it absolutely sucks for support classes. That's the reality check that I hope Square realizes.

Healing in this game can either be the most stressful and chaotically fun jobs (when paired with bad groups), or is the most boring and repetitive jobs that you could choose.

It is fun when you get to actually heal people, use your GCD heals cause you ran out of the rest, need to maintain your MP usage, maintain your dot...ext during those bad group runs. I haven't been queuing for duties except when asked as a healer, but I pray for one of these groups every time I hear the POP. A group of sprouts going through a dungeon for the first time? I am game, get me there, omfg YES.

For groups that have things practiced to a point, I mean I have that down to a science. Wait till raid wide damage, apply ogcd mit (as sage). After raid wide, use ogcd heal. During the rest, avoid puddles...reapply DoT....hit 1. Not fun for daily duties, but this is THE kinda group you want when going to higher end duties. I will say the savage raids in this tier do feel better to heal in, more unavoidable damage and whatnot, but it still is pretty much the same song and dance (I get to use 2 or wait...3 ogcd heals to get the party up!).

So, I really don't care about the damage side of things. If SE wants to take this game in a "less stress" direction, then ya sure please give me a bit more to do (more actions/combo actions idc about the damage numbers). If it was a world that SE did what I had wanted (hah, game would fail lolz), then I would be more of a fan of higher damage output from mobs/enemies or more unavoidable damage/DoT's against the party/debuffs to cleanse.

I get confused with what healers want. On one hand, more DPS actions (I agree, 1 button spamming DPS isn't fun.) But on the other hand, I hear wanting to actually heal. Yet when I do Arcadian on Normal, healers don't heal and let people die to unavoidable raid wides. I have no trust in random healers, it is always rng if they heal you or not.

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Originally Posted by Grumblecakes

I get confused with what healers want. On one hand, more DPS actions (I agree, 1 button spamming DPS isn't fun.) But on the other hand, I hear wanting to actually heal. Yet when I do Arcadian on Normal, healers don't heal and let people die to unavoidable raid wides. I have no trust in random healers, it is always rng if they heal you or not.

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Healers ultimately aren't a monolith, the ones who are happy with it currently will still play it. It just so happens that the ones who are happy with it haven't had to have proper responsibility in a good long while, so it's a crapshoot when they notice that they have to stop spamming the 1 key to notice your health is dropping. At least, that's how I look at it, the ones who were half-way decent dropped the role eventually out of boredom and so we're left with the ones that can't heal their way through an auto-attack or the ones still holding out for something a little more interesting than 1 spam. You still get the occasional good healer and they're the first ones I end up giving commendation, but more often than not I get cure-spammers or people with no game sense just mindlessly spamming Glaroilificosis.

Me personally, I just want to not fall asleep if I pick up healers again; whether that's more damage skills, more to heal, buffs/debuffs to maintain, or a good mix of those options, I just want to not be spending 15 minutes in a dungeon spamming mostly 1 button.

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Originally Posted by Grumblecakes

I get confused with what healers want. On one hand, more DPS actions (I agree, 1 button spamming DPS isn't fun.) But on the other hand, I hear wanting to actually heal. Yet when I do Arcadian on Normal, healers don't heal and let people die to unavoidable raid wides. I have no trust in random healers, it is always rng if they heal you or not.

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You aren't the only one. I main SGE. I find playing it to be helpful to raids and groups, as this expansion really so far has focused on mechanics over DPS. So, that means the ones that take advantage of eating so many mechanics are going to really feel it more, and it causes me to heal more with less DPS. The way that I look at it is really simple: I am there to heal, and that's my priority. If I DPS, then I DPS, which I do a lot of. But I never feel like I don't contribute to the whole.

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Originally Posted by Grumblecakes

I get confused with what healers want. On one hand, more DPS actions (I agree, 1 button spamming DPS isn't fun.) But on the other hand, I hear wanting to actually heal. Yet when I do Arcadian on Normal, healers don't heal and let people die to unavoidable raid wides. I have no trust in random healers, it is always rng if they heal you or not.

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You can give healers a super complicated DPS rotation or you can give healers a 1 button rotation. That won't make a difference wether they chose to heal you or not.

That's never been a good arguement for or against more DPS spells for healers. You don't get to make healers heal by giving them more healing buttons either.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

You can give healers a super complicated DPS rotation or you can give healers a 1 button rotation. That won't make a difference whether they chose to heal you or not.

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Give me a 30 button DPS rotation, and I'll tunnel-vision on it and forget that the party exists.

Give me a 1 button DPS rotation, and I'll fall asleep and forget that the party exists.

There's a happy middle ground in there where the DPS rotation -- or "rotation", if it's not strictly a fixed loop -- doesn't lull me to sleep and also doesn't require so much attention that I forget that people sometimes make mistakes that I can heal up.

The current iteration of healers is what the community wants. No need to change anything.

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Originally Posted by ClaudeHerel

The current iteration of healers is what the community wants. No need to change anything.

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Evidence to support that

-zero

SE: Doesn't acknowledge any particular healer feedback and has implemented exactly zero of the common things being asked for

The community: "What we have is EXACTLY what the entire healer community wanted"

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Originally Posted by Grumblecakes

I get confused with what healers want.

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1 word Gameplay

Right now our role barely has job mechanics, in the rare situation when we have to heal the party can cover for us or it can be solved by using a small fraction of all the healing we can provide and in the most common situation of not having to heal or becoming good enough to optimize a fight we find us with a 1 button spam gameplay that shoudn't be acceptable by any standard.

There are awful healers ofc (especially since the game babies healers and teaches them nothing) but gimping the entire role design because of that people is like saying dps shoudnt have more than 2-3 buttons because there are a lot fo them that while being lv100 can barely hit the dps numbers of a lv90 tank

More engaging rotations for healer would be welcome.

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Originally Posted by ClaudeHerel

The current iteration of healers is what the community wants. No need to change anything.

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I've come to think it's a combination of feedback from the community and the fight design team. More the latter, who benefits the most from having jobs in each role working virtually the same. The way they've addressed each introduces another problem that they've stacked up over the 3 expacs, each change furthering the role's homogenization.

ShB: Less DOT management. Pack it all to just one and extend from 18s to 30s
> WHM/SCH has less lossless weave windows
>> SCH's situation made worse from losing quickened aetherflow as well for some reason

EW: Want more weave windows? Make nukes all the same as AST's
> AST suddenly looks busier than the others due to its higher APM with cards

DT: AST too busy? Want unique card effects? Change the card system to be like Aetherflow.

Requests to add raid buffs to WHM/SGE are gaining traction now so I'm expecting that to happen by 8.0 too.

I don’t think giving more dps to healers is the solution as we’d just end up with more selfish healers looking at their numbers and/or maintaining their rotation rather than doing their job.

I’d rather healers be kept on their toes with more unavoidable damage requiring healing/cleansing and by cutting on tank self and group healing. Debuffs requiring healing actions should also occur more regularly than just in occasional duties.

Atm many healers already don’t even bother looking at debuffs and what they do and they’d rather have teammates with long 25s cleansable heavy/slow debuffs (probably a net dps loss for the group) or let people slowly die.

I just levelled up my RDM and have been having fun with it this past week yet I don’t count the times I have been rezzing group members after watching them slowly die an avoidable death from dots while clearing the normal mode raids for retainer gear and free gear for secondary jobs. Everyone will probably remember Dead Ends in EW where many healers wouldn’t cleanse necrotize because the reflex of looking at debuffs simply wasn’t there.

Also, another issue occurs when healing with a decent group: there’s practically nothing to do except periodically topping group health when there is an aoe with unavoidable damage. I almost prefer bad groups in normal content when I am healing because it gives me something to do. When I sign up as healer, I want to heal.

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Originally Posted by Toutatis

I don’t think giving more dps to healers is the solution as we’d just end up with more selfish healers looking at their numbers and/or maintaining their rotation rather than doing their job.

I’d rather healers be kept on their toes with more unavoidable damage requiring healing/cleansing and by cutting on tank self and group healing. Debuffs requiring healing actions should also occur more regularly than just in occasional duties.

Atm many healers already don’t even bother looking at debuffs and what they do and they’d rather have teammates with long 25s cleansable heavy/slow debuffs (probably a loss for the group) or let people slowly die.

I just levelled up my RDM and have been having fun with it this past week yet I don’t count the times I have been rezzing group members after watching them slowly die an avoidable death from dots while clearing the normal mode raids for retainer gear and free gear for secondary jobs. Everyone will probably remember Dead Ends in EW where many healers wouldn’t cleanse necrotize because the reflex of looking at debuffs simply wasn’t there.

Also, another issue occurs when healing with a decent group: there’s practically nothing to do except periodically topping group health when there is an aoe with unavoidable damage. I almost prefer bad groups in normal content when I am healing because it gives me something to do. When I sign up as healer, I want to heal.

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Agreed. This is what happens when you have devs that don't care about the game making combat.

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Originally Posted by Toutatis

I don’t think giving more dps to healers is the solution as we’d just end up with more selfish healers looking at their numbers and/or maintaining their rotation rather than doing their job. It would only work in statics when the group works together...

When I sign up as healer, I want to heal.

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This game's history shows that the kind of players that chad the other are present no matter if we have 1 or 10 dpsing tools. It's about time we focus on a having a proper gameplay first and think about how a player can misuse it only after having a satisfactory loop.

Healing more isn't the solution and will never be due to the nature of the game. A "healer's should heal solution" must face problems such as:

-Gear stat increase: better gear=less damage taken and healing done per cast=less healing needed, which in turns mean that the better geared a player is the less they get to enjoy the gameplay. We are punishing players for gearing properly with a "healers should heal solution"

-Game is scripted: Even the most randomized fight can be boiled down to a script in this game, a scripted that can be easily optimized leaving the players with plenty of time to dps. Not only that but the better a player is, the less they spend on healing. A "healers should heal solution" punishes job mastery instead of reward it.

-Content with different difficulty: Even if you increase the healing on all difficulties normal can't be too hard or people wont clear but also means that people who can clear savage and ultimate (and even extremes) will be left with plenty of downtime to dps regardless. Once again we punish job mastery with boring gameplay

-That solution is bound to the content: A change like that is applied to the content instead of exclusively to the job kits (like a dps change would be), this means that you would have to retroactively add that change to all of the content of the game which is a massive waste of dev resources.

I can point more problems like how that would fare in overworld or msq where the damage needs to be low enough so that dps can clear or how the healing kit is also oversimplified and homogenized in its GCD which also makes extensive healing boring and generic.

The point is, you can rework healing but to fix the healers you need to fix what the healers do when there is nothing to heal, because that kit is the only thing you know players will interact with regardless of the content they are doing

*appears from behind a wall*

They could give healers more to do without compromising the ‘healer/support’ identity by giving them more interesting and involved (and gcd) ways to support the party including indirect damage contributions. *

*is pulled back behind the wall by an angry fairy, who left a note behind*

*(Note: this does not preclude addition of direct methods of dealing damage obviously)

Even though it's something minimal and doesn't change the one main dps button, I think it would be neat to see them do something like the change they made to Paladin's atonement by having the animation and ability be different, along with potencies increasing later in the chain

the system do not feel fresh for tanks and healers. It's samey so far for them.