post-Dawntrail even story dungeons are harder and more punishing to heal than ever

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Originally Posted by Granis

by the time i see what arm he is raising and i start moving the fast-telegraphing poison aoe in the middle has already appeared and is gonna clip me because it snapshots too quickly... i mean, look at this! how are you expected to handle this if you have cast bars?

https://youtu.be/3xRhxC5rlPI

I've been stuck here for days! been trying to do it with trusts because i can't stand being yelled at and vote abandoned anymore

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I hate to sound elitist or anything, but after watching this this is in the most literal sense a skill issue. The first time the boss raises its arm here, you run to the wrong side even after the arm's up. It's not like the boss raises his arms at random times you have to be on the lookout for, once the orbs come down he starts the combo, and he has a castbar besides. There's also no reason to run through the orbs either (which yeah, that's why you got the poison dot after watching this), just stick with the group.

You know what overcapping is and you made a P10S reference, but you can't watch the boss' arms?
Beating your head against a wall for days, but can only ever come up with excuses for why you won't even try any of the advice you're being given by people who know how to beat this fight and are earnestly trying to help you?

mhm

Some players can't figure things out on their own and get frustrated when they do content early and don't have a guide.l I guess. But like, litterslly nobody should cater to those players. Just watch a guide on YouTube ahead of time.

Broski cleared p9s this is a troll post move on thanks

I'm not trolling and i really don't like that people are insinuating that. God forbid someone is struggling, just because you all can't imagine struggling like this doesn't mean other people don't. i can't afford one of those expensive mmo mice, so it's harder for me to just keybind evrrything like the pros do aside for 1-6 on the first hotbar. So, let me clarify a few points.

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Broski cleared p9s this is a troll post move on thanks

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some Context I was only able to do savage in endwalker with:

-Echo

-I had a patient group with helpful people that was basically a group that teaches people how to raid, essentially, giving explanations and calouts, and even then the clears took several weeks for us.

Having communication and helpful, patient people helping out in VC is different from the wild west that is dutyfinder or partyfinder. It's a lot easier to respond to a verbal callout in vc that to look up from all the other stuff i'm trying to pay attenion and do to see a telegraph.

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You know what overcapping is and you made a P10S reference, but you can't watch the boss' arms?
Beating your head against a wall for days, but can only ever come up with excuses for why you won't even try any of the advice you're being given by people who know how to beat this fight and are earnestly trying to help you?

mhm

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well yeah, back in endwalker i had to try to learn about uptime and using charges of abilities in a desperate attempt to get my performance to improve because i struggled with finding groups for the harder stuff, a lot of people are saying "why do you care about uptime, just focus on the emchanics" is at odd because of how much people DID care about performance when i was trying to find a static in endwalker.

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Can you tell me how you finished the Seat of Sacrifice Trial? The last boss in Mailkah's Well?The Magus Sister bosses? Omega Normal Raids? Or any other MSQ/Casual content that definitionally requires you to stand inside the bosses hitbox or near them with donut-shaped AOEs or magnetism mechanics?

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Some of these fights you mentioned, those donuts and mechanics that make you close in on the boss are a lot more obvious you're supposed to run into the "hole" of the donut, but this fight gives you the option of where you decided to dodge left and right from. Why is it better to movr into the boss than it is to stay and range and use your ranged abilities? If those poison puddles weren't there i could actually stay max phlegma range....

I tried to answer as many concerns as i could in one post, but I wanted to add something:


I had not been able to defend myself here because i had hit my daily post limit, some of you may have taken that as further proof i'm not actually struggling but trolling, but a lot of people saw that unlisted video and had been bullying me over youtube comments the entire day and i spent the entire day trying to defend myself from said bullying of said video footage of me trying it...

I just... I want to be able to improve but it's just so hard, at least in endwalker i could manage those dungeons long enough to get to the endgame where people could yell at me over lack of uptime or whatever metrics, and that's why i'm stressing so much about uptoime-releted stuff like the overcapping and stuff, because i don't want to end up in the same bad place when and if i do get through the msq.....

maybe you're all right, maybe i just will never be good enough. maybe i should just give up like so many people have said... but it sucks... i want to be able to socially be a part of this game... i don't want to have to unsub and look for another game as a social outlet because i can't pass the extremely high standards the game wants out of it's players....

There was a healer strike, now healing is too hard?
Which one is it, make up your mind guys.

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Originally Posted by Granis

og msg

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Uptime only really matters in savage or EX.
I believe I was giving really genuine advice but you didn't really want to listen or reply to it, some of the people were really trying to help but you replied making excuses without actually trying.

In normal dungeons the uptime doesn't matter, learn the mechanics first, then try to get your damage up, that's whAt I said very early on in the post.
It doesn't matter what mouse you have, I told you I only use 2 of my side keys on my mouse to use my skills, which you already have. No one's forcing you to buy a new mouse

And it seems like you have friends who can help you out in VC, if you're struggling in lvl 99 dungeon, why didn't you ask them for help? I'm pretty sure they're willing to teach you how to get through it easier with VC

Alright, I'll be nice and take it that you're not trolling. Get the mechanics down, then worry about DPS/overcap/movement efficiency. You can't do anything dead, so just focus on staying alive and overheal if you need to.

I repeat, do NOT worry about efficiency in dungeons, most of the players don't care if you aren't dps-ing much in a dungeon. Better players can and will cover your healer DPS.

Also I just noticed but almost everyone commenting is in EU/US, is this like, a thing over there? The JP side doesn't seem to have this issue and everyone just encourages you even if you die/wipe?

OP says they want to improve but when people give actually useful advice they come back with 'but but healers should stand in narnia'. Maybe that's why you get filtered, buddy.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

OP says they want to improve but when people give actually useful advice they come back with 'but but healers should stand in narnia'. Maybe that's why you get filtered, buddy.

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because unless there's a clear reason to mvoe where the melees and tank are, isn't it taking a huge risk, especially if you don't know a fight's mechanics fully yet?

Plus it's only common sense to use as much of your range as you can get away with.... or so i would think....

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Originally Posted by Granis

Plus it's only common sense to use as much of your range as you can get away with.... or so i would think....

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This is quite the opposite of common sense in your issues.

Having a shorter distance between things makes it easier for you to move and react (i.e. the safe vs unsafe zone) and skill/cast range does not matter at all.

Also, your skills actually have a "flight time" in a sense that players that stand further out receive skills a bit later than if you're standing next to them (this is more of just additional info)

But as I read the entire thread, this sounds like a troll post anyway. Cheers to us taking a chance to help you (despite you LITERALLY NOT LISTENING TO ANY ADVICE WHATSOEVER AND MAKING PATHETIC EXCUSES INSTEAD).

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Originally Posted by Granis

a lot of people are saying "why do you care about uptime, just focus on the emchanics" is at odd because of how much people DID care about performance when i was trying to find a static in endwalker.

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You do zero DPS if you're dead. Mechanics always come first. No exceptions.

Especially if you're still learning a new fight and struggling with it, the best thing to do is let your uptime take a backseat while you get it figured out. Once you know the fight well, the uptime will come naturally.

You work harder on finding excuses not to take good advice than you do on improving your play. That -- not your uptime -- is why you can't find a static.

...Or at least that's what I would say if I believed you weren't trolling.

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Originally Posted by Granis

maybe you're all right, maybe i just will never be good enough. maybe i should just give up like so many people have said... but it sucks... i want to be able to socially be a part of this game... i don't want to have to unsub and look for another game as a social outlet because i can't pass the extremely high standards the game wants out of it's players....

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This thread is ten pages of people trying to help you, and every time someone does you reply with "no I can't do that because ________." If you really want to improve and you're not just trolling everyone the proper response to that advice is to say "ok thanks," ask questions about anything you're unclear about, and then do your best to put it in action. If you spent half as much time practicing what people are telling you to do as you've spent writing posts telling them they're wrong for trying to help you, you'd have cleared the fight by now.

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Originally Posted by Granis

Especially on an attack that has such quick snapshots that unless you drop all uptime and move as SOON as the castbar appears, you're going to be clipped by the poison puddle that appears in the middle of the path of you trying to get on the other side of his arm! And that's if he doesn't trick you by hitting the same side more than once. (previous bossess with fist mechanics followed a pattern, if you dodge one side, you would be trained at this point to instictively move to dodge to the other side, this seem deliberately designed to trick people!)

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So what if he is designed to trick people? If you don't want a boss to trick people, don't go into Tender Valley... But the thing is, once you know he isn't constantly switching sides, which means, after the first wipe at the latest, it's easy to deal with. You can't just react though, you have to be proactive with your positioning, because you won't make it from right to left if you wait for the AoEs to show up. Just run back to the middle after each poison splash, and you'll even have time to cast a heal or two. But if everyone does that, you don't even need to, and have time to cast attack spells.

And i'm saying that as someone who mained healer until a few days ago (i didn't switch because i didn't like white mage anymore, but because i find dancer so much fun).

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Originally Posted by Granis

because unless there's a clear reason to mvoe where the melees and tank are, isn't it taking a huge risk, especially if you don't know a fight's mechanics fully yet?

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At this point, it barely matters whether you choose close or far. For this fight, pick any distance other than the distance that is guaranteed to kill you every single time.

You have 25 yards to work with, and you've chosen the 2-yard window that gets you killed over and over and over and refuse to do anything else.

...Or at least that's what I'd say if I believed you weren't trolling.

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Originally Posted by CidHeiral

This thread is ten pages of people trying to help you, and every time someone does you reply with "no I can't do that because ________." If you really want to improve and you're not just trolling everyone the proper response to that advice is to say "ok thanks," ask questions about anything you're unclear about, and then do your best to put it in action. If you spent half as much time practicing what people are telling you to do as you've spent writing posts telling them they're wrong for trying to help you, you'd have cleared the fight by now.

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i keep trying and failing the "Ecuses" is me coming back after trying and nothing actually helping me.... just because someone fails to apply advice and explain why doesn't make it an "excuse"

The only boss to kill me in DT non-extremes as someone who is a savage and ultimate raider is the first boss of Orogenics. The difference is that I didn't start freaking out. What did I do? I identified the problem (not enough time to move) and then compensated for it (stayed closer to center to need less movement, popped sprint). And then I killed the boss. Is this boss a little spicy in that mechanic? Yeah sure, probably, whatever. Use your wipes as an opportunity to improve.

Oh, and stop bringing up stuff like uptime and all that. The most important thing for any job is not dying. Even with raises, a death is basically equivalent to 30s standing around doing nothing, closer to 40s when you factor in the delay in coming back up. If you have to do nothing for 10s to avoid a death, that's a gain. Uptime is for when you aren't dying all the time. Forget any other concerns and go in and die to it, but actually pay attention to what happens leading up to the death, and then think about what you could do to make it go a little bit easier.

There's decent advice from people here too. Try listening to it. Because otherwise regardless of your intention, you really will just be trolling.

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Originally Posted by Granis

i keep trying and failing the "Ecuses" is me coming back after trying and nothing actually helping me.... just because someone fails to apply advice and explain why doesn't make it an "excuse"

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Show me a video of you using the positioning and other advice people have been telling you to do and I'll believe you.

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Originally Posted by Jinglypockets

You do zero DPS if you're dead. Mechanics always come first. No exceptions.

Especially if you're still learning a new fight and struggling with it, the best thing to do is let your uptime take a backseat while you get it figured out. Once you know the fight well, the uptime will come naturally.

You work harder on finding excuses not to take good advice than you do on improving your play.

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if "uptime takes a backseat" why are there people in the comments of that youtube video making fun of my bad uptime or whatever when they dug up old endwalker raids i did and mocking my low performance numbers when i was raiding towards the end of endwalker in some kind of cruel "gotcha"? Is it that wrong i don't want history to repeat itself?

And I am trying, i'm not just sitting here arguing. i've been attempting the entire time i couldn't post in here because i had hit my daily post cap? I got vote abadoned again when i tried without trusts again. and then i spent another 5-6 deaths with trusts and still didn't get it...

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Originally Posted by Granis

i keep trying and failing the "Ecuses" is me coming back after trying and nothing actually helping me.... just because someone fails to apply advice and explain why doesn't make it an "excuse"

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No. Your excuse for not standing in melee range is you think a boss without a cleave might cleave you. If you had tried it, you wouldn't be worried about this problem anymore.

You're way better at trolling than you are at FFXIV, by the way, even if you're secretly a great player. I'm genuinely impressed by how good your bait is.

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Originally Posted by CidHeiral

Show me a video of you using the positioning and other advice people have been telling you to do and I'll believe you.

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why should i when all that happened the last time i posted a video here people just flocked in to mercilessly bully me for whatever reason.... it just feels like another invatation to harassment?

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Originally Posted by Jinglypockets

No. Your excuse for not standing in melee range is you think a boss without a cleave might cleave you. If you had tried it, you wouldn't be worried about this problem anymore.

You're way better at trolling than you are at FFXIV, by the way, even if you're secretly a great player. I'm genuinely impressed by how good your bait is.

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i'm not trolling, i'm not lying or anything like that, do y'all just have an inability to see when someone is genuinely struggling?

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Originally Posted by Granis

why should i when all that happened the last time i posted a video here people just flocked in to mercilessly bully me for whatever reason.... it just feels like another invatation to harassment?

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Well considering you've told every person trying to help you that what they're suggesting is impossible, if you don't provide evidence I have to assume you're making things up. Just disable the comment section for the video if you don't want to deal with troll comments.

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Originally Posted by Granis

because unless there's a clear reason to mvoe where the melees and tank are, isn't it taking a huge risk, especially if you don't know a fight's mechanics fully yet?

Plus it's only common sense to use as much of your range as you can get away with.... or so i would think....

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IMO, it's taking more risks to move out of range when you don't know a fight's mechanics yet. Being in melee range is only a danger if a fight has player spreads, but most healers have skills that will want them to be in aoe range of other players (where being melee range is useful then, because other players running away on the other side will be more likely to be in your range). Plus, many bosses have cone-based mechanics, which are harder to move out of if you're further away.

As a rule of thumb, all bosses are made to be dodgeable at melee range, because melee players are expected to be in that range. Not all bosses can be dodged at range though, because even ranged players can be expected to dps from melee range.

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Originally Posted by Granis

i'm not trolling, i'm not lying or anything like that, do y'all just have an inability to see when someone is genuinely struggling?

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It's genuinely not believable to me that anyone would be this committed to avoiding doing anything that could help them succeed at the thing they're upset about struggling with.

It's also not believable to me that you were in a Savage raid where you actually listened to callouts instead of gainsaying your raid leader every time they made a call.

"Everyone move to the right side."
"I can't move to the right side because then my Phlegma might overcap and the boss without a cleave might cleave me. I'm going to stand out here and die over and over instead."

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Originally Posted by CidHeiral

Well considering you've told every person trying to help you that what they're suggesting is impossible, if you don't provide evidence I have to assume you're making things up. Just disable the comment section for the video if you don't want to deal with troll comments.

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plus, given how much i've jsut been stressed out and upset by this whole com,versation, i don't think i'm gonna be able to concentrate, turning the recording on is just going to make me play even worse and embarass myself more, if that makes sense... i didn't realize until people left all the nasty comments that posting the video the first time was a mistake... especially sicne this whole mess has me so upset and anxious. I get jsut an anxious when an actual group yelled at me in one of the vote abandons, or when pf groups yelled at me when i was trying to clear stuff at the tail-end of endwalker.

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Originally Posted by Jinglypockets

It's also not believable to me that you were in a Savage raid where you actually listened to callouts instead of gainsaying your raid leader every time they made a call.

"Everyone move to the right side."
"I can't move to the right side because then my Phlegma might overcap and the boss without a cleave might cleave me. I'm going to stand out here and die over and over instead."

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i'm fully capable of muting my microphone, i'm not going to talk over a party leader in the middle of pulls, conversation can wait until after the raid winds down.

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Originally Posted by Granis

i'm fully capable of muting my microphone, i'm not going to talk over a party leader in the middle of pulls, conversation can wait until after the raid winds down.

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Oh, so you just ignore them and then tell them about your Phlegma overcapping after you finish causing the wipe?

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Originally Posted by Silmeia

Alright, I'll be nice and take it that you're not trolling. Get the mechanics down, then worry about DPS/overcap/movement efficiency. You can't do anything dead, so just focus on staying alive and overheal if you need to.

I repeat, do NOT worry about efficiency in dungeons, most of the players don't care if you aren't dps-ing much in a dungeon. Better players can and will cover your healer DPS.

Also I just noticed but almost everyone commenting is in EU/US, is this like, a thing over there? The JP side doesn't seem to have this issue and everyone just encourages you even if you die/wipe?

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No, it isn't a thing on EU or US Servers either. Of course, there are some black sheep, but that's the case everywhere. I remember, way back when in ARR, and FC member insulted me and left the duty after i died twice at the demon wall boss on my first run. Let's just say, the FC leadership didn't take well to that and he only lasted a short while longer in the FC.

Generally, people are very helpful and understanding, even more so in new content.

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Originally Posted by Jinglypockets

Oh, so you just ignore them and then tell them about your Phlegma overcapping after you finish causing the wipe?

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no, i'm only going to defend myself if someone else makes a big deal out of my performance first, and this group had a big rule about not bullying people because it was about helping people.

If you don’t want people to think you are a troll then you need to provide some justification for why you won’t heed any of our advice

1) I’m standing far away because I’m a healer
2) don’t do that stand close
3) but what if I get cleaved
4) you won’t get cleaved there is no cleaved in this fight
5) but I just don’t know I’m going to stay in narnia just to be sure

If you won’t accept our advice and act like we are working off some ulterior motive to trick you why did you even make this thread

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Originally Posted by Granis

no, i'm only going to defend myself if someone else makes a big deal out of my performance first, and this group had a big rule about not bullying people because it was about helping people.

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As does every group I've ever been in, but your attitude toward helpful people is to avoid being helped. How did it go over when you chose Phlegma uptime over boss mechanics and wiped them repeatedly and you made excuses instead of accepting help?

I'm having a lot of fun arguing with this persona you've created. Genuinely impressed with your commitment to the bit.

The fatal flaw here is that any player who would rather spend days wiping to an easy dungeon boss than sacrifice Phlegma uptime couldn't possibly have killed any Savage boss.

I'm not even sure you could kill unsynced savages with this attitude.

This person you've created can't possibly exist.

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Originally Posted by Granis

plus, given how much i've jsut been stressed out and upset by this whole com,versation, i don't think i'm gonna be able to concentrate, turning the recording on is just going to make me play even worse and embarass myself more, if that makes sense... i didn't realize until people left all the nasty comments that posting the video the first time was a mistake... especially sicne this whole mess has me so upset and anxious. I get jsut an anxious when an actual group yelled at me in one of the vote abandons, or when pf groups yelled at me when i was trying to clear stuff at the tail-end of endwalker.

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Alright fair enough. I just watched your video again and here is your recipe for success.

1. Go into Character Configuration -> Control Settings -> Character -> Battle Effect Settings and turn Party/Other to Limited or Off. This is so you can clearly see his arm being raised which I noticed was covered by some spell effects at one point.

2. When the two poison blobs appear stop everything you're doing and focus on dodging the AOEs. Your NPC allies will be fine. Stand toward the center of the room and look directly at his arms. As soon as you see one raise, run to the opposite side. As soon as the AOEs go off, move back to the middle of the room and watch his arms again. Again, do not cast anything while you're learning this part. Do not run in the path of the two original poison puddles, stand either behind or in front of them.

Do not worry about your damage. You're in a trust so nobody is there to judge how much damage you're doing or your uptime. Focus on dodging mechanics. Once you have them down and you're comfortable with them, you can start doing damage again. Don't forget that you have Sprint and Ikarus as well if you're a little slow.

3. This isn't absolutely necessary right now since you shouldn't be casting anything while learning how to move, but I recommend you rebind your keys so you're not clicking everything. I don't have an MMO mouse either. You don't need one to bind everything. You have 1-6 bound, but you can also use SHIFT + 1-6 and CTRL + 1-6. That's another 12 abilities you can have bound. Also, you can rebind the keys around WASD. I use FXR as well as the buttons on my regular G Pro mouse, plus variations with +SHIFT.

Give those things a shot and see if they help.

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Originally Posted by Granis

because unless there's a clear reason to mvoe where the melees and tank are, isn't it taking a huge risk, especially if you don't know a fight's mechanics fully yet?

Plus it's only common sense to use as much of your range as you can get away with.... or so i would think....

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"unless there's a clear reason" You're looking at one right now lmao

if what you're saying were true, how do you think melees stay alive?

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Originally Posted by Saraide

"unless there's a clear reason" You're looking at one right now lmao

if what you're saying were true, how do you think melees stay alive?

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melees have more hp than healers and casters do, and don't melees specifically have role actions or job abilities that help them move around or stay alive that close to a boss?

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Originally Posted by Jinglypockets

The fatal flaw here is that any player who would rather spend days wiping to an easy dungeon boss than sacrifice Phlegma uptime couldn't possibly have killed any Savage boss.

I'm not even sure you could kill unsynced savages with this attitude.

This person you've created can't possibly exist.

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it exists enough for a stalker to gloat on the comments of that youtube video about stalking me and making fun of my bad performance and how many wipes it took my learning group to help me get what few clears i got...