The Worst Iteration of Monk. What could be different?

DT MNK is good actually. I want more 'build your own combo' systems like PB/Blitzes. Give it an ability that temporarily unlocks Greased Lightning IV.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

DT MNK is good actually. I want more 'build your own combo' systems like PB/Blitzes. Give it an ability that temporarily unlocks Greased Lightning IV.

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Yeah I wish Monk was an actually freeform combo system - as if it ever were /sigh - and did just that. That'd make it unique at least.

Say:

* Remove the AoE, that's an oGCD now that flips all combo moves between their single and AoE versions.
* 3 steps, as now.
* Each step has four options:
* Default (2,0s GCD, full movement, no secondary effects but it gathers stacks for some other effects)
* Casted (3,5s casted, extremely strong, highest DPS, very immobile and slow and breaks rhythm since it doesn't align with the normal GCD)
* Augmenting (buffs and debuffs, most scale based on the stacks from the default attacks so you need to get a certain amount in)
* Supportive (group heals, self shields)

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Originally Posted by Carighan

If the ants around buttons distract you, disable them and behave as before. Do 1:1, 1:1, 1:2

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This doesn't actually work out in actual gameplay - the Opo-Opo stance tends to get out of sync with the Raptor stance after every other Perfect Balance window.

It's weird stuff like this that makes it feel like it wasn't play tested more than a cursory "good enough". I'm curious if there's anyone on the team that does job actions that plays MNK.

It does at least add a *little* bit of complexity if you want to play perfectly.

I'm actually fine with MNK as it is, but would still love to see Riddle of Fire cooldown shortened to 55s to fix the 2m drift problem.

Also a ranged attack - even if it's adding like a 15-20 yard range to Forbidden Chakra so I have something to do while I'm having to dip out for 5-10 seconds yet again because this tier hates melee.

I suppose my 3rd ask would be letting Meditate grant a Lunar + Solar nadi when out of combat. The double lunar opening is f***ing cursed and it would be nice to be able to do a big burst on pull like literally every other job.

No changes at all to MNK in 7.1 -_-

We're the bottom of the barrel in terms of personal DPS (excluding phys ranged and the res-casters) but the other melee all get buffs.

Truly the forgotten job.

I’d have been happy with another stack of greased lightning. I don’t care how badly it affects the rotation/double weaving.

how much want you bet that next expansion we are gonna have a phamton rush combo

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Originally Posted by mallleable

DT MNK is good actually. I want more 'build your own combo' systems like PB/Blitzes. Give it an ability that temporarily unlocks Greased Lightning IV.

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PB/Blitz is good, yes, but... what all can be leveraged from them, and their relative value, has already been reduced with DT relative to EW. I would honestly have to say DT Monk is a disappointment largely because of (what it did to) PB/Blitz.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

* Each step has four options:
* Default (2,0s GCD, full movement, no secondary effects but it gathers stacks for some other effects)
* Casted (3,5s casted, extremely strong, highest DPS, very immobile and slow and breaks rhythm since it doesn't align with the normal GCD)
* Augmenting (buffs and debuffs, most scale based on the stacks from the default attacks so you need to get a certain amount in)
* Supportive (group heals, self shields)

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??? Why would we want Monk to be more of a caster than BLM has ever been? Or an even more problematically extreme version of an Augmentation Evoker, for that matter?

More importantly, though, this would be mostly incompatible with Perfect Balance, as you'd really have, in total, 12 ST (and, via toggle, 12 AoE) actions, up from 9, all to more than likely muddy or simplify rotation.

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Remove the AoE, that's an oGCD now that flips all combo moves between their single and AoE versions.

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This wastes the opportunity to offer some variance across 2|3|4 target situations. While it would reduce key-cost, I'd rather increase ST and AoE skills use cases each in the opposite situation.

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Originally Posted by Eremite

This doesn't actually work out in actual gameplay - the Opo-Opo stance tends to get out of sync with the Raptor stance after every other Perfect Balance window.

It's weird stuff like this that makes it feel like it wasn't play tested more than a cursory "good enough". I'm curious if there's anyone on the team that does job actions that plays MNK.

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Honestly, I prefer that such a desync exists and has to be played around. As you said, it adds a little bit of complexity, and I like that.

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Also a ranged attack - even if it's adding like a 15-20 yard range to Forbidden Chakra so I have something to do while I'm having to dip out for 5-10 seconds yet again because this tier hates melee.

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5-10 seconds forced melee downtime without also seeing forced downtime for everyone else? Starting from the GCD's having recovered from SSS? That seems unlikely.

Personally, I don't see a need for a ranged attack so long as we're given more agency over our Chakra count. A ranged tool is, in essence, any that supplies us with potency even when outside of melee range. Meditate gives 80p/second, increasable by later raid buffs. Until the recent ranged skill buffs, that was the actually the best of the ranged tools, at a nominal 200p-per-2.5s and the most granularity. The others have only just caught up.

For my part, I'd just like to see Meditate's GCD cost scale with GCD speed (thereby remaining half a GCD, rather than increasing its relative cost as one's global recast time decreases) and Meditate itself have a chance to crit for an extra Chakra.

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I suppose my 3rd ask would be letting Meditate grant a Lunar + Solar nadi when out of combat. The double lunar opening is f***ing cursed and it would be nice to be able to do a big burst on pull like literally every other job.

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Have to disagree. I like that at least a job or two can still actually have some delayed / not-automatically-and-instantly-synced burst.

I started Monk back in SB and loved it and enjoyed it in ShB. I didn't play it in EW but I thought I'd pick it up again this expansion and...

This is the most boring thing I've ever played.

Holy crap I just found out today that at level 92, you lose Elixir Field and it gets replaced with the inferior Elixir Burst. I thought I was hitting the combo correctly in recent days and wondered why I wasn't seeing the correct attack animation, I figured I must have fumbled the combo or something. Why take a great animation, that took time to make, then ruin it with a worse one (which is thus wasted time making that) at higher level. Just stop with all this.

Hot MNK take, but replace Six Sided Star with a ranged fireball/hadouken attack that has the same long recast, and chakra scaling mechanic as Six Sided Star's, but it's ranged, and replace the animation, and icon of Dragon Kick with Six Sided Star's animation, and icon.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

Hot MNK take, but replace Six Sided Star with a ranged fireball/hadouken attack that has the same long recast, and chakra scaling mechanic as Six Sided Star's, but it's ranged, and replace the animation, and icon of Dragon Kick with Six Sided Star's animation, and icon.

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Tepid take, but let's not replace what has historically been the most melee of melee's already sufficiently downtime-reducing melee skill with yet another ranged attack.

eh. between fire's reply, enlightenment and... whatever elixir burst is supposed to be, i think i've already seen enough fireballs on monk already.

not like it matters though when the job's aesthetic has been shot dead then left in a shallow grave. what is it even supposed to be anymore? even the official mobile game that's being developed by a different group can make a more coherent visual identity for monk than SE can.

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Originally Posted by VentVanitas

eh. between fire's reply, enlightenment and... whatever elixir burst is supposed to be, i think i've already seen enough fireballs on monk already.

not like it matters though when the job's aesthetic has been shot dead then left in a shallow grave. what is it even supposed to be anymore? even the official mobile game that's being developed by a different group can make a more coherent visual identity for monk than SE can.

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For me it's not even about the visual identity (that actually works really well IMO :o ) but about the fact that someone having an epileptic seizure and throwing fists everywhere at 200 fists/minute is just not what a MONK is to me. It just doesn't project the fantasy that would evoke. It would have to be the opposite. A super-slow, super-thinky, super-preplanning fighting style with incredibly hard hits. 5.0s GCD but the abilities all deal their damage at the end of the GCD, and while those 5.0s run (castbar, you can move) you can press various other abilities that add stackable effects onto the damage instance soon happening.

Some wouldn't even deal damage, but apply special buff combinations at the end of the 5.0s to yourself based on the "secondary" effects you put into it, which then all gets used up in the next skill, that then took a total of 10s to produce but deals an equivalent amount of damage.

Okay that's a bit of a wild concept for a job, but the point is that a hyperactive flurry tornado isn't what a monk really ought to be, at least for me. That's a ninja, or a rogue, or a skirmisher, or other such job fantasies.

I would like hundred fists in a way that isn’t boring like riddle of wind. Maybe every attack under pb could grant +1 haste or something if it must bend to the silly biminutely windows.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

I would like hundred fists in a way that isn’t boring like riddle of wind. Maybe every attack under pb could grant +1 haste or something if it must bend to the silly biminutely windows.

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Oh yeah that's how I'd imagine a burst window to look I suppose. By default one of the slowest-attacking jobs, and then every 2 minutes focuses for a while, and then goes wild with fast ceaseless attacks that get ever-faster as you land them. :o

(1) different animations for 123 after using Perfect Balance
(2) faster skill speed for 123+ after using Perfect Balance
(3) something to press after using Six-sided Star
(4) a new action that grants nadi(s)

I'm not a fan of current monk but I've embraced that the job will just change to whatever they feel like everytime a new expac comes out.
All I ask is for them to return Anatman. It was my cool pose before battles start and people are watching cutscenes. It's critical to my monk play.

hard disagree with positionals on in melee job you want challenge keep it to the resource up keep only, give us greased lightning back and make monk faster

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Originally Posted by Kahnha

hard disagree with positionals on in melee job you want challenge keep it to the resource up keep only, give us greased lightning back and make monk faster

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Returning Greased Lightning would only...

• allow us to briefly be slower than we are now at the start of each fight (as we're already at the speed of a GL4),
• tax each fight with an inferior opener, making Monk abnormally hard(er) to balance over short encounters than other jobs, and
• arbitrarily punish Monk in fights with cutscenes if Anatman were returned, or with any forced downtime of 15+ seconds if not.

It would introduce absolutely no challenge beyond remembering to hit Anatman a couple times per certain fights, let alone a challenge related to resource(s).

I've never been a huge fan of monk but I did enjoy hopping on it occasionally in EW, job felt pretty good casually imo. Now I can't stand playing it for even one duty. Feels bad :(

I used to never play MNK due to how hard it was for me to keep track of all the buffs/debuffs. Now it's one of my favorite jobs. /shrug

A Mostly Minimalist Wishlist:

• The former Master's Gauge component of the Beast Chakra Gauge can again be separated from the Beast Chakra Gauge. Its three central nodes are also now shown only during Perfect Balance and peripheral nodes for Lunar and Solar Nadi shown individually and only when they've been generated.
  
  
• Form Shift removed. In its place, introduce the Flowing Fists trait, which increases the damage of your Form skills by 40%, but --outside of Perfect Balance-- loses half this bonus for each time that form has been used within the last {2 GCDs' time}. Initial potencies reduced by ~28.6% in compensation.
  
  This maintains the same rotation as before except perhaps as a finishing blow while Leaden Fist is readied, but allows one to start from any form without needing a preparatory Form Shift and slightly increases the value of Six-sided Star.
  
  This does also inadvertently mean that Blitz does not have to give Formless Shift and that one can follow a new skill order (O-C-R or R-O-C or whatever) upon coming out of Perfect Balance or Six-Sided Star; the mere fact that you had two+ GCDs that did not constrict Flowing Fists means that you have complete freedom on return, while Blitz itself could be used to spread a given Form just 2 GCDs apart, instead of 3.
  
  
• The Beast Chakra gauge now dims the icon of the form most recently used, fading over 2 GCDs' time, and highlights form(s) not used within the last 2 GCDs' time. The whole gauge outline now also has an optional glow for the forms highlighted form, with the further option of varying the color if the non-penalized form(s) lacks Fury.
  
  This should ease tracking which form one is in, making that visible even peripherally.
  
  
• An Action Change setting for Perfect Balance to Masterful Blitz is now available. Note that Masterful Blitz may still be activated via a separate key.
  
  With that, we're up to a total of 2 waste keys trimmable.
  
  
• Meditate recast time reduced to 40% of a GCD instead of a fixed 1 second. Howling Fist / Enlightenment may now also Action Change from Meditation.
  
  In this way, Meditate no longer causes fractional drift for those carrying Skill Speed. Not that it's had any relevant in at least two expansions outside of boss jumps that'd cause greater desync anyways.
  
  
• Twin Snakes still grants only 1 stack of Raptor's Fury, but Raptor's Fury now stacks up to 2 times. Demolish still grants only 2 stacks of Raptor's Fury, but Coeurl's Fury now stacks up to 3 times.
  
  This allows for a more flexibility and rotational facets over time with additional optimization to be had in trying to hit exactly max stacks just before a Riddle of Fire burst as to minimize builder usage during burst. The ability to reorder one's trio of skills after PB or SSS should play into this a bit.
  
  
• Riddle of Wind revised to feel more impactful. It now allows for Chakra to overcharge, increases auto-attack speed and crit chance by 60%, allows all your attacks' critical hits to generate Chakra, and causes Enlightenment to deal double damage to its main target, The Forbidden Chakra to dash-strike up to 20 yalms (if more than 5 yalms away on activation and splash nearby enemies for 50% damage, and for both to inflict a Mark of Wind on their primary target that will detonate for 80 potency to all nearby enemies once Riddle of Wind completes. Marks of Wind do not stack.
  
  At present, Riddle of Wind itself is worth little over 200 potency. On a 90s CD. It's... pretty pathetic. Now it can at least out-damage a simple Chakra spender and can carry some utility value. Honestly, any sort of change would be fine here so long as it feels more noticeable.

Slightly More Ambitious Addendums (cumulative):

• Positionals returned to all form based skills but alongside a new trait, Disciplined Fist. The Disciplined Fist trait allows you to generate up to 3 stacks of Disciplined Fist. Would-be failed positionals consume a stack of Disciplined Fist, if available, to instead count it as a success. You generate a stack every 20 seconds, with this time reduced by 4 seconds per naturally successful positional.
  
  
• Riddle of Earth, Fire, and Wind now cost 40% of your available MP, with max duration and bonus effects varied based on MP spent. Length of use (to a max of 20 seconds) determines the strength of their Echo and their cooldown (double use time). Using any element's Riddle will decrease the costs of the other elements' Riddles by half, stacking up to two times (50% cost, 25% cost). We regenerate 4000 MP per minute, so this is self-sustaining if appropriately cycled or using only Riddle of Fire.
  
  
• Riddle of Fire increases damage dealt by 15%. Riddle of Wind now decreases auto-attack and weaponskill delay by 15% by up to 20 seconds and movement speed by 40%, fading over up to 20s. Riddle of Earth now decreases damage taken by 30%, fading over up to 20s, and cumulatively increases your Strength based on damage thereby reduced to fade over up to 20 seconds from when the bonus was generated.
  
  
• While Riddle of Fire is active, Bloodbath may be used even if on cooldown without refreshing its cooldown, for half of what Riddle of Fire cost. While Riddle of Wind is active, Bloodbath may be used even if on cooldown without refreshing its cooldown, for half of what Riddle of Wind cost. While Riddle of Earth is active, Second Wind may be used even if on cooldown without refreshing its cooldown, for half of what Riddle of Earth cost.
  
  
• Meditation removed. You now simply gain a point of Chakra for every half-GCD spent not off the global cooldown. (Rate tripled while out of combat.) Maximum Chakra increased to 7. You may now spend 1-7 Chakra at a time for 70|145|225|310|400|485|565 potency total (70|75|80|85|90|85|80 potency per Chakra spent). In this way, the sweet spot remains 5 Chakra, but we now have more control over Chakra expenditure.

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Originally Posted by Wilford111

I used to never play MNK due to how hard it was for me to keep track of all the buffs/debuffs. Now it's one of my favorite jobs. /shrug

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I struggled with keeping up with the timers before DT too - the way I have my hud setup had the boss debuffs and my character buffs far away from each other and I had to work hard to constantly check. I liked monk in casual content because the job itself just kept me busy.

At the start of Dawntrail though... I felt like SE was forcing me to stare at my hotbars and react with every gcd. Which was a problem because I like to plan and figure out what I'll be doing over the next few gcds. Yes there is the beast gauge but it was still a struggle to take my eyes off the hotbar. I figured out a solution:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...70eec79442ea5&

Which made me think... MNK would be improved so much if they just made the beast gauge glow depending on what form you were in. It would fix the gauge and make it actually useful. I'm not sure if its been suggested before but I know people have their gripes with the gauge, me included.

One thing I really want them to do is add some color coding to the skill icons and the beast gauge and chakras (wanted it with the bootshine/twin snakes buffs in EW too). My short term memory's bad enough that I often forget which buttons I've pressed for the Solar combo.

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Originally Posted by Azurarok

One thing I really want them to do is add some color coding to the skill icons and the beast gauge and chakras (wanted it with the bootshine/twin snakes buffs in EW too). My short term memory's bad enough that I often forget which buttons I've pressed for the Solar combo.

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There's this thing where even DAoC back in the days had "common icon elements", like tickmarks in the corners or circles in the bottom to indicate certain effects like "This is an AoE centered on you" or "This is a smart party buff" etc. Shame modern games no longer do that.

As an idea, they could bake the "balls" into the skills if the icons showed us doing an attack on the normal move, and that same icon (yes, the dreaded autocombo, autocombos are 100% superior, debate me bro, etc) shows us wreathed in flame if we have charges, respectively shows both us and the background in flames for Pouncing Coeurl, first use the background drops back to normal, second our flame wreath in the icon disappears. More intuitive way of doing it than a specific UI element.

On the bright side, it's been checks calendar at least one patch since the last monk rework, so we're due for another at any minute! It can't possibly get any worse, right? right?

I seen many videos of HW monk and i ahve to say HW monk was bad. I been ona nd off monk since stormblood (mostly cause i started in the 2nd to last patch of StB and i was using PLD for story since i enjoy that job and the stance dancing), but for me DT MNK is more rewarding then just "ok gotta manage GL, gauge, chakra, buffs, debuffs, dot, etc, etc." If anything to me current MNK feels mroe rewarding since you can use teh 10 chakra for double enlightment, forbidden chakra or even giving SSS a huge dmg buff for bonus movement for a mechanic. My least favorite of old monk was GL it felt so stupid to have that when it should stay as a passive so teh job feels like its ramping up on its damage

When it is all said and done, I think XIV will be remembered as the The Worst Iteration of every job.......Granted, I have not beaten the MSQ mostly due to the jobs not being interesting......

XIV has terrible job design. Every Job feels the same somehow.......Tanks feel like DPS that can heal with DPS, Ranged are just DPS who stand back a little, healers feel like DPS who don't actually hit anything.......

This is simply the opinion of one man, and no I am not up to debate my opinion lol......I am not saying the game is terrible or anything......relaxation to the knights.

I still struggle to figure out what it is that people liked so much about Greased Lightning in any era it couldn't competitively be used for Tornado Kick under certain but decently frequent conditions (late Stormblood Monk) and/or wasn't decently difficult to maintain and carry commensurate reward (10s duration ARR Monk during certain fights, such as T9/13 earthshakers/jump).

If it were the extra 3 GCDs of ramp-up it used to enforce at the start of each fight that appealed to us (4, I suppose, under Shadowbringers, plus or minus tick-alignment for Anatman before it was moved onto the GCD), then we still have 3 GCDs of ramp-up due to Beast Chakra (so, only 2 shorter than the total from before)... If it's the timer's pressure, that hasn't been a concern since wall-to-wall pulls became the norm, as it's either simply possible (and automatic) or impossible (as from long-stun boss jumps or too far between a wall and the next first mob), with no skill expression between. If just the sheer opener tax, we can't really be balanced around commensurate reward anyways since fight lengths will vary.

Like, I'd almost rather bring back stances but with actually potent effects (+20% Haste, crit chance, and movement speed; +15% damage and direct hit chance; +10% attack power, 10% reduction to damage taken, and 10% of damage mitigated -> temporary bonus attack power) on 2 charges with a bit of a cooldown, so that we at least have some choice and optimal swap-timing gameplay rather than just an opener tax, if that makes sense?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I still struggle to figure out what it is that people liked so much about Greased Lightning in any era it couldn't competitively be used for Tornado Kick under certain but decently frequent conditions (late Stormblood Monk) and/or wasn't decently difficult to maintain and carry commensurate reward (10s duration ARR Monk during certain fights, such as T9/13 earthshakers/jump).

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I can't really say GL really was something I cared for or not but it did add an element of difficulty when you had to maintain it which made gameplay interesting though fights weren't necessarly as complex as they are now and as we play more we get better which has an impact too.

I don't really play monk anymore, the job bar system just feels bad and while it's "mostly" the same gameplay wise it just doesn't feel good. (I'm also not super huge no the new animations too) Also why do we have 3 AoE skills if they don't impact anything anymore, there's no buff anymore, they don't interact with the gauge so why do they exist if we're trying to simplify things...

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Originally Posted by enthauptet

I can't really say GL really was something I cared for or not but it did add an element of difficulty when you had to maintain it which made gameplay interesting though fights weren't necessarly as complex as they are now and as we play more we get better which has an impact too.

I don't really play monk anymore, the job bar system just feels bad and while it's "mostly" the same gameplay wise it just doesn't feel good. (I'm also not super huge no the new animations too) Also why do we have 3 AoE skills if they don't impact anything anymore, there's no buff anymore, they don't interact with the gauge so why do they exist if we're trying to simplify things...

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Right, but once HW arrived, you would have to spend the full duration unable to reach any enemy or nearly the full duration stunned to not be able to maintain GL, with it only getting even more lenient later on. We haven't had a GL that added any element of actually difficulty (i.e., anything beyond the annoyance of Form Shift) since ARR ended. Meanwhile, we still have 60% the ramp-up we had in ARR via PB (4 GCDs required for a near-full Demolish, 5 for direct damage actions --> 3 GCDs now), just available without spending an originally 3-minute CD.

Re: the AoE skills, though, agreed. By giving us AoEs for each GCD, it's just siphoned would-be power-per-GCD away from our previously fewer AoE GCDs and reduced our focus target damage for the trouble. I preferred the cycle diminished-AoE-damage (but some utility), focus damage only, and strong AoE over that.

And yeah, the loss of Disciplined Fist and Demolish-as-DoT have hit Monk pretty hard.