Please reconsider 7.0 BLM changes

The lore stated, that its a phase where you gives your aether rest and time to recover. It never stated, that you are not allowed to use spells in that time (that is, what whe are doing allready). At the same time did she practicly even learned ice spells to enter that state. Whe even strenght that phase, by using ice spells (ice soul) and later creating ice shards, to support the fire phase. So, its looks to be connected from the start.
In addition is it simply a game mechanic, to give Ice attacks more use.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Except non standard doesn’t break any lore conventions because as I said umbral ice is what restores MP, not channeling ice magic specifically, this is explained in the like level 5 THM quest

If you oppose non standard lines it sounds like you actually oppose skills that facilitate their ability to exist (which is mainly transpose and xenoglossy) because remember the lore states there is no functional difference between xeno and blizzard 4 when in umbral ice because its umbral ice itself that allows for mana regen (same reason astral fire cancels natural MP regen)

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You're bending the lore to suit your own narrative. Blizzard 4 is an amazing animation and it should be meta to use it. Also it doesn't matter, because non-standard is dead and gone. It makes sense, it was intentionally squashed because the devs don't want people to take blizzard 4 off their bars just to be meta.

"Cocobani: Controlling the expenditure of your power requires an understanding of aetheric balance. The scales can tip in one of two directions─astrally or umbrally.
Cocobani: When your mind and spirit lean in an umbral direction, your thaumaturgy is affected by a state known as “Umbral Ice.” The potency of your spells is diminished, but they also require less energy to invoke.
Cocobani: On the other hand, a thaumaturge in the “Astral Fire” state will find the potency of his/her incantations enhanced, but at a greater cost to his/her aetheric stamina."

It makes sense to interpret it the way you did, but even with this wording you can interpret it that you have to cast ice spells to actually lean your mind and spirit in an umbral direction. Now that the game system forces you to cast ice spells in order to regain mana, that interpretation becomes truth.

Especially when you consider that transpose doesn't add to umbral ice at all. It switches your current state, and the timer starts to go down. If you use it again, you go into astral fire. Transpose is neither here nor there, it does not lean the mind and spirit in either direction.

Mao wouldn't mind if non-standard still allowed buts changes nots gonna affect Mao too much. Mao mostly standards already because Mao casts Blizzard IV in Mao rotation. Mao likes watch sparkly ice. SHINY!

If non standard elimination was the target they could have just made the ice phase better.
Instead of yet another fire spell charged by fire attacks why not make it so that ice spells charge it instead?
If the damage was high enough non standard would then no longer exist. That would have made both sides happy
As a blm main since heavensward I think that would be the best way. Not more fire spells and simplifications but enrichment of what we have.

I only use nonstandard from time to time. I wouldn’t really miss it but I think there would have been better ways to change everything.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

No it’s a combo of 2 things

1) to get this new skill you must press 6 fire 4’s, this means “short lines” (ie rotation loops where you don’t get umbral hearts so you don’t have enough mana to cast 6 fire 4’s) are pretty much gone since you basically need to do 6 fire 4’s now
2) you now need to cast a spell (presumably an ice spell) in umbral ice to get mana back rather than just being in umbral ice. Most of the “non standard” play in BLM involves transposing into umbral ice then casting large gain spells like thunder 3 or xenoglossy to skip casting weak ice spells like blizzard 3 and blizzard 4

The changes in DT are removing both of these situations

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I mean I get this, I understand the rotational "streamlining" is disappointing. I am just wondering if anyone is finding the flavor/aesthetic disappointingly unoriginal/innovative as well?

I feel for you BLM mains. Just like AST, our jobs which have optimization and mid-maxing potential have been taken away and simplified, all so the shitters of this game can feel better they aren't optimal because they couldn't be bothered to put the effort in.

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Originally Posted by Zaytex

I feel for you BLM mains. Just like AST, our jobs which have optimization and mid-maxing potential have been taken away and simplified, all so the shitters of this game can feel better they aren't optimal because they couldn't be bothered to put the effort in.

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Imagine liking both Ast and BLM. (Although i play standard mostly)

Oh yeah and liking old PLD....

Fun times to play ff14!

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

Also it doesn't matter, because non-standard is dead and gone. It makes sense, it was intentionally squashed because the devs don't want people to take blizzard 4 off their bars just to be meta.

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This is a really odd way to put this. People playing non-standard aren't using non-standard lines 100% of the time (that isn't usually possible or optimal). Non-standard lines provide additional flexibility to the rotation and allow players to fit it better into fights with downtime or phases that aren't friendly to a purely standard rotation.

It would feel bad to lose that flexibility, which is why it would be nice if the devs would implement this (good! useful!) change in such a way that would still allow players to use more flexible lines on occasion (e.g. allowing t3 or xeno to restore mp in addition to b4/b1/umbral soul).

Even if they don't, it's likely that some non-standard play will still exist, it'll just be much more niche (and likely a lot harder to execute and use, which I think goes counter to their intentions). We'll have to wait until we see media tour and/or the launch version of the job to know for sure, there are still open questions (does any mp at all restore from ticks when in ice, or is it 100% spells now? Does lucid dreaming restore mp? How much and when? etc.)

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Originally Posted by jazzcatte

This is a really odd way to put this. People playing non-standard aren't using non-standard lines 100% of the time (that isn't usually possible or optimal). Non-standard lines provide additional flexibility to the rotation and allow players to fit it better into fights with downtime or phases that aren't friendly to a purely standard rotation.

It would feel bad to lose that flexibility, which is why it would be nice if the devs would implement this (good! useful!) change in such a way that would still allow players to use more flexible lines on occasion (e.g. allowing t3 or xeno to restore mp in addition to b4/b1/umbral soul).

Even if they don't, it's likely that some non-standard play will still exist, it'll just be much more niche (and likely a lot harder to execute and use, which I think goes counter to their intentions). We'll have to wait until we see media tour and/or the launch version of the job to know for sure, there are still open questions (does any mp at all restore from ticks when in ice, or is it 100% spells now? Does lucid dreaming restore mp? How much and when? etc.)

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Sounds way too complex to me, good thing it is being removed so everyone can strive to play their job to the fullest instead of just 0.0001% of the playerbase. Downtime should just be as simple as casting umbral soul to maintain full hearts and keep enochian running. It is downtime after all.

If you can do more, there is pressure to do more. Having it your way makes high end content more exclusive and that's not a good thing. More people should be able to access the top level of play on all jobs. What you want is like, a really small and elitist high end community. It's different in PF, but top level statics will pressure their players to do everything they can and if it is too much then people will simply play a different job to get by in their statics, or not engage in the high end community at all because they would rather play black mage. This is why jobs like summoner are so popular in high end.

It's almost like the elite couldn't care less about player engagement, because they are willing to do what it takes to get by and it only takes 8 people for a static. Doing what leads to a more active endgame playerbase is just better for the game's health. If sacrificing a really complicated flexibility that optimizes your potency will lead to greater player engagement, that's for the best even if it upsets a minority at the top a little bit. This is why capitalism is great in some ways, the majority rules because it's not like the elitists pay a higher subscription fee. Just look at how popular summoner has become if you want to know how it works.

If you lose all charges of the new fire buildup upon switching to umbral ice and the potency is too strong to miss out on, that pretty much does it.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

Sounds way too complex to me, good thing it is being removed so everyone can strive to play their job to the fullest instead of just 0.0001% of the playerbase. Downtime should just be as simple as casting umbral soul to maintain full hearts and keep enochian running. It is downtime after all.

If you can do more, there is pressure to do more. Having it your way makes high end content more exclusive and that's not a good thing. More people should be able to access the top level of play on all jobs. What you want is like, a really small and elitist high end community. It's different in PF, but top level statics will pressure their players to do everything they can and if it is too much then people will simply play a different job to get by in their statics, or not engage in the high end community at all because they would rather play black mage. This is why jobs like summoner are so popular in high end.

It's almost like the elite couldn't care less about player engagement, because they are willing to do what it takes to get by and it only takes 8 people for a static. Doing what leads to a more active endgame playerbase is just better for the game's health. If sacrificing a really complicated flexibility that optimizes your potency will lead to greater player engagement, that's for the best even if it upsets a minority at the top a little bit. This is why capitalism is great in some ways, the majority rules because it's not like the elitists pay a higher subscription fee. Just look at how popular summoner has become if you want to know how it works.

If you lose all charges of the new fire buildup upon switching to umbral ice and the potency is too strong to miss out on, that pretty much does it.

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If on log in everyone instantly got a clear of the current savage tier and a full suite of relics then savage engagement will reach 100%

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

If on log in everyone instantly got a clear of the current savage tier and a full suite of relics then savage engagement will reach 100%

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Yeah but we both know how dumb of an assertion that was for you to make.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

Yeah but we both know how dumb of an assertion that was for you to make.

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I made exactly the same assertion as you did

You entire half page argument I replied to basically boils down to “jobs can’t have complexity because then you are creating restrictions on content and that’s elitist”

Where is the logical conclusion of that argument

What if I think standard rotation BLM is too hard. Aren’t you being restrictive to me? What if I want to clear savage spamming fire 1? Ripping our job complexity in an effort to not be “elitist” is such a flawed argument because it has no logical conclusion

The only way to remove “elitism” of entry and optimisation of higher end content is to just remove said content from the game and flatten every job into a healer

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I made exactly the same assertion as you did

You entire half page argument I replied to basically boils down to “jobs can’t have complexity because then you are creating restrictions on content and that’s elitist”

Where is the logical conclusion of that argument

What if I think standard rotation BLM is too hard. Aren’t you being restrictive to me? What if I want to clear savage spamming fire 1? Ripping our job complexity in an effort to not be “elitist” is such a flawed argument because it has no logical conclusion

The only way to remove “elitism” of entry and optimisation of higher end content is to just remove said content from the game and flatten every job into a healer

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No you didn't? You made an extreme exaggeration and think you had a gotcha moment. The logical conclusion of the argument is that it's better for jobs to just make sense to make room for complicated encounters and player engagement. You can get carried through savage spamming fire 1 if you want. There's no reason you couldn't do that. You'd just look like a fool if anyone even noticed. The job is plenty complex played the way it is intended to be played.

Try to have more nuance instead of being melodramatic.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

No you didn't? You made an extreme exaggeration and think you had a gotcha moment. The logical conclusion of the argument is that it's better for jobs to just make sense to make room for complicated encounters and player engagement. You can get carried through savage spamming fire 1 if you want. There's no reason you couldn't do that. You'd just look like a fool if anyone even noticed. The job is plenty complex played the way it is intended to be played.

Try to have more nuance instead of being melodramatic.

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If I think BLM in its current form is too complex why does that not invoke the same argument you are using to argue against non standard lines. You think they are too complex and that more people should have access to top level play on BLM. What if I think standard BLM is too hard (I don’t I’m just arguing thereoticals). Isn’t it elitist for you to not want to dumb BLM down further to accomodate me.

So where does the “complexity reduction of BLM” end. For all classes it functionally ends when you squish them down into healers

I don't see how non-standard lines is even a problem when no one is required to use it and most probably don't know it exists, and if they do they aren't using it anyway [me included]. Taking away that micro-optimization only hurts the players who enjoy that sort of thing, it doesn't hurt the ones who will never interact with it nor care to.

I lowkey don't understand the intrinsic need of needing to make optional optimisation that barely pulls ahead in most scenarios anyways (especially for the effort it takes) be essentially deleted just so casuals "don't feel bad for not performing the ideal non-standard lines according to meta analyst dee-pee-ess".

All we do is lower ceilings and keep floors the same. Sorry, but this benefits noone except those with high levels of performance paranoia - who will still probably not perform standard line play to the maximum anyhow.

And honestly, saying "Summoner is great, look how many people play it, it is a success" is such a meme that I only believed CBU3/Yoshida might say. It's a job you can train a hamster to perform, is it really such a good metric to base job success on if people simply play it due to being easier than every other Caster (by basically not being a caster) and still somehow doing more damage than Red Mage (because clearly that's fair).

It's okay to have easy jobs, but can we have the ones with higher ceilings please stay the ones with higher ceilings? We don't need to lobotomize every job for people with performance anxiety.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

If I think BLM in its current form is too complex why does that not invoke the same argument you are using to argue against non standard lines. You think they are too complex and that more people should have access to top level play on BLM. What if I think standard BLM is too hard (I don’t I’m just arguing thereoticals). Isn’t it elitist for you to not want to dumb BLM down further to accomodate me.

So where does the “complexity reduction of BLM” end. For all classes it functionally ends when you squish them down into healers

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It ends where it ended. The rotation is standardized and streamlined. This is the goal the devs set out to accomplish and they did just that. If you don't like it, that's too bad. The enjoyment of the majority is far more important than the enjoyment of a few elitists. You can always make your own game with a bunch of weird situational non-standard gameplay. See how successful it is.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

It ends where it ended. The rotation is standardized and streamlined. This is the goal the devs set out to accomplish and they did just that. If you don't like it, that's too bad. The enjoyment of the majority is far more important than the enjoyment of a few elitists. You can always make your own game with a bunch of weird situational non-standard gameplay. See how successful it is.

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The "goal" from what I figured from the slides was to make MP generation not tick-dependent, which is a good thing. Please refer me to where the goal was explicitly stated to kill off non-standard BLM gameplay in an effort to streamline and unify Black Mage gameplay down to one route, because I'm not buying it otherwise. You call it enjoyment of elitists, but I feel like it would be neat if we actually took into account what our dear Yoshi P does on Black Mage at the moment - there is probably data somewhere on it.

If enough feedback comes in asking for non-Blizzard-spells during Umbral Ice to generate MP (a reasonable request if you ask me, depending on MP values) and that gets implemented, then we'd essentially have non-standard available again with a different MP system, which is what many don't mind. Personally also hoping that the Astral Hearts (or whatever the new gauge is) don't empty out upon entering Umbral Ice and just "freeze" for lack of a better pun, then we'd have a solid all-around Black Mage with the most annoying part, the MP regen ticks, fixed.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

The "goal" from what I figured from the slides was to make MP generation not tick-dependent, which is a good thing. Please refer me to where the goal was explicitly stated to kill off non-standard BLM gameplay in an effort to streamline and unify Black Mage gameplay down to one route, because I'm not buying it otherwise. You call it enjoyment of elitists, but I feel like it would be neat if we actually took into account what our dear Yoshi P does on Black Mage at the moment - there is probably data somewhere on it.

If enough feedback comes in asking for non-Blizzard-spells during Umbral Ice to generate MP (a reasonable request if you ask me, depending on MP values) and that gets implemented, then we'd essentially have non-standard available again with a different MP system, which is what many don't mind. Personally also hoping that the Astral Hearts (or whatever the new gauge is) don't empty out upon entering Umbral Ice and just "freeze" for lack of a better pun, then we'd have a solid all-around Black Mage with the most annoying part, the MP regen ticks, fixed.

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Their entire goal with job design in dawntrail is to streamline the jobs and then give further identity to them in the next expansion.

The whole point of astral fire is that you're rushing to get all your power out within the window you have available. If it carried over to umbral ice it would defeat the fantasy of astral fire phases. If you didn't get your explosions out properly, try again next time from scratch. It doesn't make any sense for the gauge to carry over to umbral ice and would significantly lessen the weight and urgency of astral fire. It's supposed to feel like a hot streak.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

Their entire goal with job design in dawntrail is to streamline the jobs and then give further identity to them in the next expansion.

The whole point of astral fire is that you're rushing to get all your power out within the window you have available. If it carried over to umbral ice it would defeat the fantasy of astral fire phases. If you didn't get your explosions out properly, try again next time from scratch. It doesn't make any sense for the gauge to carry over to umbral ice and would significantly lessen the weight and urgency of astral fire. It's supposed to feel like a hot streak.

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They fundamentally are streamlining jobs by making sure things aren't dependent on timers as much as action input. In case of BLM, this means they streamline MP generation with spells casted rather than landing on MP server ticks. I don't see the need to streamline BLM by gutting non-standard lines specifically when they actually give a BLM more options.

And to be honest, I think it would be kinda foul if the new Astral gauge just deleted stacks if you failed to hit six stacks and then use <High Fire IV>. Simply failing to finish spellcasts on Black Mage alone is a huge loss of damage since all damage Black Mage does is GCD (i.e. potency-per-second is a usable metric).

So if you can't expend less than six Astral Hearts for <High Fire IV> (similar to Pitch Perfect, for lower potency) or are unable to retain stacks between AF/UI and for whatever reason you cannot reach it in that fire cycle, that is possibly a HUGE potency loss, the likes the other casters do not have to deal with in any capacity.

Lastly, we carry Umbral Hearts into Astral Fire. Us carrying what looks like Astral Hearts into Umbral Ice and retain them between cycles does not seem far fetched for me.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

They fundamentally are streamlining jobs by making sure things aren't dependent on timers as much as action input. In case of BLM, this means they streamline MP generation with spells casted rather than landing on MP server ticks. I don't see the need to streamline BLM by gutting non-standard lines specifically when they actually give a BLM more options.

And to be honest, I think it would be kinda foul if the new Astral gauge just deleted stacks if you failed to hit six stacks and then use <High Fire IV>. Simply failing to finish spellcasts on Black Mage alone is a huge loss of damage since all damage Black Mage does is GCD (i.e. potency-per-second is a usable metric).

So if you can't expend less than six Astral Hearts for <High Fire IV> (similar to Pitch Perfect, for lower potency) or are unable to retain stacks between AF/UI and for whatever reason you cannot reach it in that fire cycle, that is possibly a HUGE potency loss, the likes the other casters do not have to deal with in any capacity.

Lastly, we carry Umbral Hearts into Astral Fire. Us carrying what looks like Astral Hearts into Umbral Ice and retain them between cycles does not seem far fetched for me.

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So you think it would take too much skill for astral hearts to carry over? Interesting.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

So you think it would take too much skill for astral hearts to carry over? Interesting.

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That is literally not what I said and if my grammar was off, not what I would infer. Please quote the part of what I said that made you believe I thought so.

I said and implied it would be unnecessarily punishing if you CAN'T carry over Astral Hearts OR expend them at less than six before the next Umbral Ice phase. Why would it take too much skill for Astral Hearts to carry over? It would literally be MORE flexible if that was possible and would allow alternate Fire lines and different timings for <High Fire IV>, i.e. be less punishing for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

That is literally not what I said and if my grammar was off, not what I would infer. Please quote the part of what I said that made you believe I thought so.

I said and implied it would be unnecessarily punishing if you CAN'T carry over Astral Hearts OR expend them at less than six before the next Umbral Ice phase. Why would it take too much skill for Astral Hearts to carry over? It would literally be MORE flexible if that was possible and would allow alternate Fire lines and different timings for <High Fire IV>, i.e. be less punishing for everyone.

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I meant to not carry over, my bad.

I, honestly, don't think the intention was the kill non-standard lines. I just don't think they took it into account when doing the level 100 design.

I'm sure Black Mage players will be cleaver enough to find a new 'non standard' rotation.

If no other job can be fun so blm, too, shouldn't be either. You think you're special with the dev fave job card, but finally it hopefully comes to an end. Maybe if every job is bad enough people will finally open their eyes.

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Originally Posted by Theox

If no other job can be fun so blm, too, shouldn't be either. You think you're special with the dev fave job card, but finally it hopefully comes to an end. Maybe if every job is bad enough people will finally open their eyes.

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...you'd think the players would want the other jobs to have unique flavours just like BLM does, not wish for everything to just be vanilla with food colouring.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

...you'd think the players would want the other jobs to have unique flavours just like BLM does, not wish for everything to just be vanilla with food colouring.

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You'll rot in the bucket with the rest of the crabs!


Really is an off-putting attitude. Petty mean-spiritedness.

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Originally Posted by Theox

If no other job can be fun so blm, too, shouldn't be either. You think you're special with the dev fave job card, but finally it hopefully comes to an end. Maybe if every job is bad enough people will finally open their eyes.

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-The least toxic MMO community

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Originally Posted by Theox

If no other job can be fun so blm, too, shouldn't be either. You think you're special with the dev fave job card, but finally it hopefully comes to an end. Maybe if every job is bad enough people will finally open their eyes.

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How are the changed make its bad, when all known Infos make the blm better.
Except maybe for the non Standard ones.

And no, don't tell me to be grateful that at least ONE job is not as bad. When was the last time BLM player cared about other jobs? When it doesn't happen to you and you smile and nod don't expect others to come for the rescue when shit hits the fan. I shouldn't care if you had fun when I wasn't able to experience it for several updates in a row.
And I never said I wish every job was bad, but stuff only starts to change when there's no other job to go to. You brought that on yourself, not my attitude.

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Originally Posted by Theox

And no, don't tell me to be grateful that at least ONE job is not as bad. When was the last time BLM player cared about other jobs? When it doesn't happen to you and you smile and nod don't expect others to come for the rescue when shit hits the fan. I shouldn't care if you had fun when I wasn't able to experience it for several updates in a row.
And I never said I wish every job was bad, but stuff only starts to change when there's no other job to go to. You brought that on yourself, not my attitude.

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I recommend actually asking around with people who main BLM and why they do. You are making it an "us versus them" scenario for no reason.

Black Mages being avid caster mains are absolutely in favour of reviving job identity for the other caster jobs (and jobs in general) and making them more interesting to play and optimize with. Like genuinely, you are villainizing Black Mages as a community and as a job for incredibly petty reasons.

So kindly bugger off with your rotten attitude of "BLMs dont care because they are well off", we kindly would like other jobs to be enjoyable as well for diversity, but we have tone-deaf job designers. Go bark up a different tree, BLM is not at fault for most other jobs tasting like prison bread.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

blah-blah

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You completely missed my point again but I give up. Have fun with new BLM in Dawntrail!

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Originally Posted by Theox

but stuff only starts to change when there's no other job to go to.

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Is this your point then? How exactly is Black Mage the gatekeeper here?

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Originally Posted by Mecia

Is this your point then? How exactly is Black Mage the gatekeeper here?

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BLM being the only other job not completely gutted yet? Hmm... Let me think...

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Originally Posted by Theox

BLM being the only other job not completely gutted yet? Hmm... Let me think...

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So now that BLM is getting dumbed down, suddenly a thousand voices arise from their slumber to lament current job design as if that wasnt happening already?

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Originally Posted by Mecia

So now that BLM is getting dumbed down, suddenly a thousand voices arise from their slumber to lament current job design as if that wasnt happening already?

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Of course not, but it will definately force some people to look at a bigger picture. Also please stop villainizing me, you're stuck with new BLM regardless of my opinion on job design, so like the other person said to me: "go bark up a different tree". I promise you - me or my attitude is not the problem here.

Such an attitude becomes a problem if it is part of a discussion.

It’s not the fault of blm players other jobs get streamlined and most blm mains were just minding there own buisness in the past.

Instead of smirking at unhappy players how about trying a real discussion?
The others who are for the changes at least have an opinion rooted in the game itself.

"I want your fun to be ruined, out of bitterness and spite... wait why are you vilifying me????"

I think it's crazy that many wish for Black Mage's depth to be filled with sand, because other jobs' depth has been removed, rather than demanding for the depth of those jobs to be brought back. I don't get exactly how nonstandard is an issue. At most you dealt 3% more damage, but the main use was to keep uptime.