Feedback: It's dull when only the tank is still alive and they can't die

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Originally Posted by Daeriion_Aeradiir

This implies that you'd actually clear on the 2nd pull and not potentially reach the same situation where everyone is dead but the tank again, rendering restarting to a 'taking even longer than just soloing' situation.

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I missed this before, but in general I haven't seen wipes repeat excessively. It is always possible that you will run into a party that simply can't clear, but that is astronomically unlucky. Resetting the fight is more likely to save time over the course of many dungeon runs. And looking beyond time as the only factor, it's going to be more fun for the other players.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

only for you, all it shows is how good a player is.

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The bar for tank solos isn't very high. Rather than showing if a player is good, it shows whether or not they are making serious mistakes. A tank in many cases has to mess up badly or intentionally die to lose to a boss. If that's the case, the healing ability of healers doesn't really contribute anything and that is when people start to regret playing a healer. They're limited to their extremely simple DPS rotations and don't get to use their interesting abilities. It's as if the game is fighting against how it's supposed to work.

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Originally Posted by Grizzlpaw

You can take every ounce of healing from tanks and it wouldn't stop a tank + healer from slowly soloing a boss.

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This is true, but at least in that case dead party members can be revived. That helps with both the time to kill the boss and the boredom of being a spectator.

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A trinity doesn't have to be a hard rule. Roles can hybridize a little. Tanks heal and DPS. Healers DPS and mitigate (do re remove healer mit because they infringe on tanks?). DPS mitigate and self heal (SMN and RDM can group heal)

Stripping down jobs further isn't the answer here. Jobs are already over-pruned. We need to pressure groups enough that these hybridized tools aren't enough to coast by on.

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I'm not against blurring the lines between roles, but I think that would take more work to get right in FF14 than rebalancing the workload between roles in the game as it currently is. I don't see reducing tank healing as pruning either. They won't lose anything except for near immortality in casual content. If anything it's a gain for tanks because their mitigation becomes more important. There are times when I don't even use my defense CD's on tanks because my HP bar is barely being dented. This is on PLD too, not WAR.

Increasing incoming damage would help. The current state of content is part of the problem, but the roles need to have their own niches to fill if they're going to exist at all. There are different ways to do that but SE isn't likely to go for drastic change, so something simple like reducing tank healing is a more realistic fix.

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Originally Posted by Asako

As for WAR out healing Healers in dungeon pulls not being fair on healers. You do realise that healers can do more damage than a lot of DPS in these same pulls. Should we remove all healer damage too and make everything just really grindy for no reason? As a healer you should be healing as little as possible in content. Tanks having self sustain is the best thing they've done for Tanks lately. Before this change Tanks were a rare commodity and now people love them and we have loads of them.

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Healers dealing DPS doesn't invalidate the rest of the party. They shouldn't be outDPSing the DPS at high level, but that has an obvious fix, which is to reduce their DPS.

Healing as little as possible is optimization, not a healer design goal. It only applies to GCD's anyway. OGCD healing doesn't get in the way of damage. If a healer presses an OGCD at every possible weave spot, they lose zero DPS. Tank sustain doesn't even benefit healers because they already don't have to stop DPSing to keep the tank alive.

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As it is Tanks are completely fine. Healers are just terrible to play if you are forced to heal.

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Healers should be forced to heal. That's the entire reason for existing. It's the draw of the role. Being forced to heal doesn't mean pressing Cure II constantly, it means that damage to the party is enough to make a healer required and to keep that healer thinking and engaged.

In pvp tanks and melee both.

Yeah this problem isn't even new, just more prevalent given how cranked up each tank has gotten with self sustain.

Back in Heavensward, depending on boss design, there were many bosses Warrior could just solo if they had most of the instance timer. The most infamous example in my memory is a Warrior that soloed Caliofsteri after the bead phase when most of the alliance died because they didn't know that tank couldn't control her facing after the bead phase, so this caster heavy alliance just had a shit ton of BLMs, SMNs, Healers, BRDs, and MCHs all eat shit because they didn't think they had to move for her half room cleave.

This is a final boss in a 24 man raid, mind you. And the Warrior soloed her from some ridiculous % I wanna say from like 39%. Mighta been lower than that.

So imagine just being in prison that long, lol. All doable because the boss was designed to hurt the alliance a whole lot more easily than the tank, and mostly stopped all damage on the tank for huge amounts of time.

Bosses nowadays don't even critical hit anymore.

Compare and contrast with old dungeon bosses like Siren from Pharos Sirius. A strong bleed on the tank at all times. Healing received down effect on the whole party that used to have to be stopped with silence, or you were in for a rough time. Adds that bind the tank and healer, completely immobilizing all action if they TOUCHED the tank and/or healer.

This game had a lot of potential to be a challenging experience even in the dungeon content back in days of yore. But the complaints back then were, "It's too hard!" And look where that's gotten us.

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Originally Posted by ChrysOCE

The easiest change is just drop the ilvl sync. They don't need to redesign fights. They don't need to change anything else. Just pull the ilvl sync back 15-20. 30+ in some cases.

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This and making bosses auto attacks hit harder (in general) would go along way i think

At the risk of necro'ing a dead thread, this happened to me in the final MSQ dungeon of Dawntrail's first boss. Healer and other DPS almost immediately died due to failed mechanics. Myself and the tank were all that were left and this particular boss has a mechanic where there's a simultaneous tankbuster and stack AoE. I used Feint since it's the only mitigation I have as a VPR (easily could have managed if I was on a NIN with access to Shade Shift), but the tank didn't use Reprisal or couldn't because it was on cooldown.

Predictably, I died. And I released because there was no way the tank was going to try to solo this thing from 65%...right..?

Now, if you know the final MSQ dungeon, you know that the boss rooms are actually locked off to the point where you can't even see what's going on inside if you're not in the arena. The entire party proceeded to stare at a wall for the next seven minutes, and what do you know, the tank choked at the end and died anyway, destroying other people's time.

I know the prevailing argument from hero tank defenders is "Oh, you shouldn't have died, so let me have my fun." It's absurdly easy to stay alive and tickle the boss to death, especially when you've had almost a hundred levels to learn healing and mitigation mechanics. And sometimes it doesn't even matter if you do the fight right, unavoidable damage is harder for a DPS to overcome.

The near immortality of tanks is the problem, especially when a fight with tankbusters isn't enough to bring them down to dangerous levels. You aren't doing anything fun or truly challenging like soloing a raid boss from a previous expansion with clever mechanic avoidance and near perfect execution over a long fight. You're fighting a dungeon boss that repeats the same two or three mechanics over and over. If you want to solo content, solo content that you can queue for solo. You're cannibalizing three other peoples' time.